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Alaois posted:I don't think loving Neil Gaiman is hurting for money Space Fish posted:Indeed, Amanda's doing quite well for herself. Thread title right here, good show.
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Feb 1, 2019 20:00
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Not Gaiman himself but I know a few authors that get paid more money on the talking/class circuit than through book sales so I don't really see a problem with Gaiman doing it. If people can't afford to go to his classes that isn't his fault, and if they want to use a GoFundMe or whatnot to attend his classes, again this shouldn't be his problem either. If he decides to signal boost it thinking it might help the people raise the funds, than whatever, but expecting him to take a pay cut or whatnot because some people can't afford taking his class isn't really feasible. Usually authors have a set rate for these kind of things anyway, with a set price for speaking engagements and such. It isn't really scummy as this is how they get their income. To say that someone is rich enough that they don't need to earn money anymore doesn't really make sense.
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Feb 1, 2019 21:53
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Madkal posted:Not Gaiman himself but I know a few authors that get paid more money on the talking/class circuit than through book sales so I don't really see a problem with Gaiman doing it. If people can't afford to go to his classes that isn't his fault, and if they want to use a GoFundMe or whatnot to attend his classes, again this shouldn't be his problem either. If he decides to signal boost it thinking it might help the people raise the funds, than whatever, but expecting him to take a pay cut or whatnot because some people can't afford taking his class isn't really feasible. That's 99% of all authors, I'd guess, especially as you move away from commercial genres and screenwriting and stuff like that. The biggest financial windfall I get from writing books is that more colleges offer me more classes, and eventually better classes. Bajillions of writers make livings teaching writing, very very few can legitimately support themselves just on book sales and advances and the direct spoils of having people (hopefully) paying money for your stuff. If I on a book tour or travel to read it's never because I expect to make bank, it's because it's usually a paid-ish vacation and a good excuse to hang out with colleagues. Now, Neil Gaiman is a super rich guy, so I don't know, it's maybe just my impliciti bitterness and bile but I feel like if he's really feeling for someone who wants to take his class he should either offer lectures for free (as many authors do through bodies like Pennsound) or just accept that it's the nature of the beast. If he wants to get paid, nice, but if he wants to frame this as his benign gift to the world, I don't know, there are better ways to do so than Master Class. He's not your average writer, economically-- he's not teaching Intro Poetry to four sections of 30 kids so he can make his car payments. He doesn't need to be hustling. This whole thing isn't wrong but it is on a gut level sort of gross. Edit: I should note, full disclosure, that my field is poetry, so like-- if I see a candy bar in the trash I'm going for it, if you know what I mean, and most of my sample size is poets. Teaching is ubiquitous-- if you don't teach, you have an office job. That being said, I'm friends and colleagus with many many fiction writers and it's largely the same. A few hit it biggish and are able to just write for a living but that's super rare. How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Feb 1, 2019 |
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Feb 1, 2019 22:19
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I looked up Martina Markota because Ethan suddenly went on a spree of shilling for her IGG graphic novel. I shouldn't have bothered.
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Feb 1, 2019 22:20
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I got really confused because the first place I saw this discussed claimed it was a Phoenix University class, which it is not. And this sort of spun out into a discussion of how hosed for-profit education is turning into for-profit medicine where people are forced to do donation drives just to get access to these things. All of which I agree with, but isn't what any of this is. (Kim O'Connor was apparently just kidding when she said it was from Phoenix University and people took that at face value I guess?) It's A Master Class Video Series which is essentially a 21st Century version of the VHS copy of How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way. If you click through the link they have a bunch of people who need money way less than Neil Gaiman (who himself does not need money) doing these, from Paul Krugman and Shonda Rimes to James Patterson and Will Wright. All of this is fine for what it is, a fairly pricey video series with an educational bent, and many of these are things I would watch if they were on Netflix or some other cheap platform. A single class is $90 or a year subscription to all of them is $180. What this "MasterClass" isn't is anything that resembles a college class, there's no interaction of papers/projects to submit or a grade or credit assigned anymore than you get those things from buying Raina Telgemeier's new book about making comics, which to be fair is probably going to be cooler and much, much cheaper. I think there's definitely something to be said about the weird "we're all just starving artists trying to uplift"/hucksterism/white savior/whatever stuff that has been part and parcel of Gaiman/Palmer's schtick for ages now, and how that feeds/is fed into by the breathless way people are talking about this Master Class on Writing, but it's still on a site where you can get guitar playing tips from the dude from Rage Against the Machine or watch videos of Steph Curry talking about making free throws. It's Youtube Instructional Videos You Have to Pay For, which is fine but it's also the rough equivalent of someone setting up a GoFundMe because they really need an HBOGo login or tickets to TCAF or something. Which is also fine, but yeah, I don't know. Neil is still being a clown about it though. https://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/1091050946182959105
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Feb 1, 2019 22:49
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That's pretty rich considering Palmer got blowback for asking artists to work for exposure.
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Feb 1, 2019 22:56
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If nothing else I now know of the existence of that raina book which I'm putting on my wishlist so ty for that e&c
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Feb 1, 2019 23:02
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I don't have a problem with Neil Gaiman doing this, nor with him getting paid. It was the signal boosting the gofundme's that was off to me. I read that tweet within a couple hours of Tom Taylor responding to a fan who was lamenting the cost of comics by saying to check his DMs for a free digital copy of Friendly...Spider-Man #1. Gaiman's gotta have a couple of free passes he could knock over to cash strapped fans. The Chipotle refugee cup was just a hilarious example of being a creative professional during late capitalism.
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Feb 1, 2019 23:03
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I have more of a problem with people asking for money to subscribe to an Instructional Video site than I do with someone having a video on the site. I mean get your priorities in order. People shouldn’t setup a GoFundMe for every expense on things they want. There’s no necessity there. There are people in bad shape using GoFundMe for legit reasons. Wanting to watch a Neil Gaiman video series ain’t it.
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Feb 2, 2019 00:14
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There's something weird about him sharing their GoFundMes, I agree. ''Give this person money so they can give me their money.'' It's like a roundabout way of asking for money, if you know what I mean.
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Feb 2, 2019 00:47
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Halloween Jack posted:That's pretty rich considering Palmer got blowback for asking artists to work for exposure. Her justification for it, which was essentially "I was being an ignorant idiot who didn't realize I'm not an indie DIY artist anymore (despite being exactly that, technically) and due to my success shouldn't be acting like I'm still couch surfing in the early Dresden Dolls days," and then paying everyone and it never happening again is all perfectly reasonable. Honestly anyone who still brings it up years later is probably just a misogynist and should be featured in this thread, but not for the reasons they think and are causing them to post right now.
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Feb 2, 2019 03:13
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Yikes
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Feb 2, 2019 03:20
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Jedit posted:Taking after his wife, then, who crowdfunded a concert tour to the tune of several times more than she needed then asked musicians local to the gigs to back her without being paid. And crashed on couches, I remember that one
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Feb 2, 2019 06:02
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Vince MechMahon posted:Her justification for it, which was essentially "I was being an ignorant idiot who didn't realize I'm not an indie DIY artist anymore (despite being exactly that, technically) and due to my success shouldn't be acting like I'm still couch surfing in the early Dresden Dolls days," and then paying everyone and it never happening again is all perfectly reasonable. Honestly anyone who still brings it up years later is probably just a misogynist and should be featured in this thread, but not for the reasons they think and are causing them to post right now. Lmbo no it was a really lovely thing and in the context of Neil signal boosting people trying to raise money for the master rear end it is perfectly reasonably to bring up Fake edit gently caress it I'm leaving that auto correct
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Feb 2, 2019 06:05
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Truly, promoting a video writing course is on the same level as campaigning for misogyny and white nationalism, and really warrants discussion in this thread.
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Feb 2, 2019 06:33
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oi guv its me neil gaiman, wots you gunna do whens ya can't afford me instructional videos, yous gotsa do a gofundme, innit
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Feb 2, 2019 07:01
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ryonguy posted:Truly, promoting a video writing course is on the same level as campaigning for misogyny and white nationalism, and really warrants discussion in this thread. Yeah, that subject isn't for this thread at all.
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Feb 2, 2019 07:12
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I would not mind seeing the bar lowered from just insane chuds to just bad business practices, and I think some of the poo poo marvel DC and others have pulled has flown here, but selling a product as an injustice might be too low of one
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Feb 2, 2019 07:55
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This thread was never for cgate only
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Feb 2, 2019 08:18
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Hemingway To Go! posted:I would not mind seeing the bar lowered from just insane chuds to just bad business practices, and I think some of the poo poo marvel DC and others have pulled has flown here, but selling a product as an injustice might be too low of one This thing with Gaiman, while sketchy, doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same thread as Ethan Van Sciver's continued downhill slalom. Things that Gaiman's wife is doing definitely don't need to be brought up here, because as far as I know, she's never made a comic book.
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Feb 2, 2019 08:20
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I mean I brought up that Marvel tweet making GBS threads on inkers not because there's anything specifically chudish about it (so far as I know) but because it's absolutely mind-boggling to me that Marvel's, EiC, a guy who got promoted into his gig after it came out that he spent a goodly length of time misrepresenting himself as a Japanese man to try and give his lovely comics a veneer of Real Oriental Authenticity, is publicly negging his own employees as some convoluted, roundabout way to encourage people to apply to work at Marvel. It has nothing to do with the usual alt-right harassment brigades which have become dismally commonplace but it still qualifies as industry terribleness imo.
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Feb 2, 2019 08:55
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Vince MechMahon posted:Her justification for it, which was essentially "I was being an ignorant idiot who didn't realize I'm not an indie DIY artist anymore (despite being exactly that, technically) and due to my success shouldn't be acting like I'm still couch surfing in the early Dresden Dolls days," and then paying everyone and it never happening again is all perfectly reasonable. Honestly anyone who still brings it up years later is probably just a misogynist and should be featured in this thread, but not for the reasons they think and are causing them to post right now. Amanda Palmer surely receives way more than her fair share of vitriol due to misogyny but I think people also bring it up because Amanda Palmer has a history of doing and saying problematic things that could also be featured in this thread. "I was being an ignorant idiot" is one thing for regular business terribleness and another when you're saying racist or ableist things, so sorry, not much slack from me. She actually did make a comic about her molested conjoined twins project, but y'all are right, probably not for this thread. It's just refreshing not to have to think about EVS in here.
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Feb 2, 2019 09:05
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Kai Tave posted:I mean I brought up that Marvel tweet making GBS threads on inkers not because there's anything specifically chudish about it (so far as I know) but because it's absolutely mind-boggling to me that Marvel's, EiC, a guy who got promoted into his gig after it came out that he spent a goodly length of time misrepresenting himself as a Japanese man to try and give his lovely comics a veneer of Real Oriental Authenticity, is publicly negging his own employees as some convoluted, roundabout way to encourage people to apply to work at Marvel. It has nothing to do with the usual alt-right harassment brigades which have become dismally commonplace but it still qualifies as industry terribleness imo. That's fair. I'm not sure Cebulski-san has ever done a mea culpa regarding it, and it's not like as the EIC he couldn't re-open submissions so he's just apex of the example that the mess mainstream comics can be.
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Feb 2, 2019 11:23
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Kai Tave posted:I mean I brought up that Marvel tweet making GBS threads on inkers not because there's anything specifically chudish about it (so far as I know) but because it's absolutely mind-boggling to me that Marvel's, EiC, a guy who got promoted into his gig after it came out that he spent a goodly length of time misrepresenting himself as a Japanese man to try and give his lovely comics a veneer of Real Oriental Authenticity, is publicly negging his own employees as some convoluted, roundabout way to encourage people to apply to work at Marvel. It has nothing to do with the usual alt-right harassment brigades which have become dismally commonplace but it still qualifies as industry terribleness imo. Why didn't they make Sana Amanat EiC? Also, here's what I get when I do a Siri look up on Sana Amanat's name to make sure I spelled it right  
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Feb 2, 2019 14:01
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https://twitter.com/CarolynCNowak/status/1091689942571462657?s=19
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Feb 2, 2019 17:03
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That's loving hilarious, especially since it looks like it's a mostly positive review.
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Feb 2, 2019 17:20
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Ror posted:Amanda Palmer surely receives way more than her fair share of vitriol due to misogyny but I think people also bring it up because Amanda Palmer has a history of doing and saying problematic things that could also be featured in this thread. "I was being an ignorant idiot" is one thing for regular business terribleness and another when you're saying racist or ableist things, so sorry, not much slack from me. People should bring up those things instead then. But they don't. I wonder loving why. E: Let me add to this one thing. Amanda Palmer has said and done a lot of poo poo that's dumb as gently caress and hasn't owned up to all of it. But if you look at interviews with her she's the first to admit she's a flawed person. Constantly bringing up the things she has owned up to, apologized for, and course corrected on is lovely. It's doubly lovely to move the conversation off of her husband and somehow blame her for his lovely actions. If you don't see how basically saying "oh no, pure and good Neil has been corrupted by his evil witch of a wife," makes you sound like you should be on one of EVS's streams cutting up an Amanda Palmer record with a knife, then maybe you should take some time for self reflection. Vince MechMahon fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Feb 2, 2019 |
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Feb 2, 2019 19:44
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Vince MechMahon posted:People should bring up those things instead then. But they don't. I wonder loving why. Yeah it's been reeeeeaaaaaaaal neat how a tweet by Neil Gaiman with no reference to, from, about, or for his wife somehow still brought her into the conversation here. Not suspicious at all guys!
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Feb 2, 2019 20:03
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thank you Jedit, the Duke of Bad Posts, for somehow making this conversation about Amanda Palmer instead of about Neil Gaiman and his goofy british accent
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Feb 2, 2019 20:10
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I get the point this guy is trying to make and like, I see which discourses he's drawing from, but sheesh, where were his editors? I think he meant to say-- I think-- that if comics evolved with a phallogocentric (not phallocentric) narrative and symbolic idiom, then it's worth thinking about how the basic structures of the comics page might look without it. The right-angled panel, the gutter as a stark divider between units of meaning, etc. as apodictic: "here's what is comics, here's what is not, and that's how we parse a page"-- I get it. and I think that wondering how and why those structures are coded as "masculine" and what alternatives we ight find is well worth asking. But like: 1) woman comics artists have been asking this for decades. It's not new and this reviewer isn't doing his due diligence to 1) woman comics artists have been asking this for decades. It's not new and this reviewer isn't doing his due diligence to write as if these questions are brand ne w. 2) Gynocentrism is absolutely the wrong word, and again, an editor should have caught that the first time, let alone the other 4,200,304 times it appears to crop up. I feel sort of bad because, like, he seems to like the book and I can only imagine that his goal in writing the review was to get more people to read it. I ask again-- where the gently caress was his editor. Vince MechMahon posted:"oh no, pure and good Neil has been corrupted by his evil witch of a wife," makes you sound like you should be on one of EVS's streams cutting up an Amanda Palmer record with a knife I think the point is that they're both tacky idiots.
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Feb 2, 2019 20:46
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Archyduchess posted:where were his editors? It's TCJ, they've got a lot of 'what the gently caress' white dude stuff lurking under the surface.
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Feb 2, 2019 20:59
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Archyduchess posted:I think the point is that they're both tacky idiots. Yeah, honestly folks, I wasn't even thinking of how it placed in the context of this thread. And Gaiman's been stealing for years - when he was at the peak of his acclaim for creativity in the early to mid 90s he wasn't just reinterpreting classical stories but contemporary as well. He put practically the entire of Cancelled Comics Cavalcade into The Sandman, and I much preferred Coraline when it was called The Thief of Always and Clive Barker wrote it. I also found out recently that Mark Millar has been using ghostwriters on a number of his Millarworld books without crediting them, including Kingsman: The Secret Service and Jupiter's Legacy, which were both written by Rob Williams from outlines by Millar. It seems to have mostly stopped now (possibly due to the Netflix deal), and Williams was given full author credit on Kingsman: The Red Diamond, but it's still disappointing. There's nothing wrong with splitting authorial credit between story and writer.
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Feb 2, 2019 21:40
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Jedit posted:I also found out recently that Mark Millar has been using ghostwriters on a number of his Millarworld books without crediting them, including Kingsman: The Secret Service and Jupiter's Legacy, which were both written by Rob Williams from outlines by Millar. It seems to have mostly stopped now (possibly due to the Netflix deal), and Williams was given full author credit on Kingsman: The Red Diamond, but it's still disappointing. There's nothing wrong with splitting authorial credit between story and writer. I remember the old joke about why Millar was such a good Superman Adventures writer when he was bad at everything else and the answer was "Grant Morrison."
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Feb 2, 2019 22:38
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Jedit posted:...and I much preferred Coraline when it was called The Thief of Always and Clive Barker wrote it. What a lazy pseudo-criticism of two works that share a surface-level similarity.
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Feb 2, 2019 23:03
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Jedit posted:I also found out recently that Mark Millar has been using ghostwriters on a number of his Millarworld books without crediting them, including Kingsman: The Secret Service and Jupiter's Legacy, which were both written by Rob Williams from outlines by Millar. It seems to have mostly stopped now (possibly due to the Netflix deal), and Williams was given full author credit on Kingsman: The Red Diamond, but it's still disappointing. There's nothing wrong with splitting authorial credit between story and writer. This is not an uncommon occurrence in fiction, honestly. Lots of mid-list authors make decent money ghost-writing for other, more famous authors and never get any credit. The writers I've talked to that have done ghost-writing typically don't harbor any ill will towards the person on the other side of the transaction. It's mostly fans that seem to get upset.
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Feb 2, 2019 23:27
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Yeah because it’s kind of a lovely practice. Common but being common doesn’t make something not lovely. Kind of like internships in a way.
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Feb 3, 2019 00:07
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Jedit posted:Yeah, honestly folks, I wasn't even thinking of how it placed in the context of this thread. And Gaiman's been stealing for years - when he was at the peak of his acclaim for creativity in the early to mid 90s he wasn't just reinterpreting classical stories but contemporary as well. He put practically the entire of Cancelled Comics Cavalcade into The Sandman, and I much preferred Coraline when it was called The Thief of Always and Clive Barker wrote it. Lmbo that's why Jupiter's Legacy is good
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Feb 3, 2019 01:43
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Ornamented Death posted:This is not an uncommon occurrence in fiction, honestly. Lots of mid-list authors make decent money ghost-writing for other, more famous authors and never get any credit. The writers I've talked to that have done ghost-writing typically don't harbor any ill will towards the person on the other side of the transaction. It's mostly fans that seem to get upset. It's lovely in comics when there's already books thAt are story by x written by y that do fine I'm more likely to read those than a ghost written book with no actual writer credit
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Feb 3, 2019 01:46
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Wanderer posted:What a lazy pseudo-criticism of two works that share a surface-level similarity. The thunderous roar you hear is the trundling of goons racing towards this thread to tell you how much they don't like popular thing.
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Feb 3, 2019 06:42
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Renfamous decided to do a stream tonight, and, well...I realize that EVS is low-hanging fruit at this point but loving lol. https://twitter.com/EthanVanSciver/status/1091844624451276800 What a petty, miserable husk of a human being.
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Feb 3, 2019 06:58
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