|
Honestly singling out the player character as some special scion from whence all the fate of the world springs feels dumb to me. Yes, it's technically true, especially in a videogame like this where you get to choose the fate of the world, but really homing in on it just highlights the fact that all the world is just a dumb videogame centered around the player. Ulysses might as well be giving diatribes on the existence of a HUD. Especially if you're calling out the player on being a shithead, get them on something they actually did instead of making up some crazy poo poo that still the player character wasn't responsible for before being taken control of by the player. And then when you take your mind away from the weird narrative, the whole area is just another demolished ruin in a game about demolished ruins. Woo, this time the
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 02:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 14:54 |
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:Honestly singling out the player character as some special scion from whence all the fate of the world springs feels dumb to me. Yes, it's technically true, especially in a videogame like this where you get to choose the fate of the world, but really homing in on it just highlights the fact that all the world is just a dumb videogame centered around the player. Ulysses might as well be giving diatribes on the existence of a HUD. I think you missed the point of the entire conversation that just took place
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 02:56
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:Honestly singling out the player character as some special scion from whence all the fate of the world springs feels dumb to me. Well, yeah. That's the point. That's the mistake Ulysses was making. He thought you were some part of some grand plan, some great design, when all the Courier did was a job. They were hired to deliver something, to a podunk town in the middle of nowehere that they went to once and never visited again, and that's what they did. But the consequences qere so great, so life-changing to Ulysses, that he had to find some kind of meaning or go openly insane. Yet in doing so, he quietly went mad. Besides, it's not as if the Courier doesn't already have a backstory themselves anyway- this is just one part of it that's come to bite them in the butt. I also think the fact that it springs up out of nowhere is kind of the point, as again, it's Ulysses trying to squeeze some semblance of meaning from an event that was for all intents and purposes a tragic accident.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 03:28
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:Honestly singling out the player character as some special scion from whence all the fate of the world springs feels dumb to me. Yes, it's technically true, especially in a videogame like this where you get to choose the fate of the world, but really homing in on it just highlights the fact that all the world is just a dumb videogame centered around the player. Ulysses might as well be giving diatribes on the existence of a HUD. I think the point is that Ulysses is pointing the finger in the wrong place. The Courier ultimately has absolutely nothing to do with what happened to Hopeville beyond incidentally delivering a package exactly like the dozens or hundreds of others they did. The NCR is the one actually responsible, but that doesn't fit Ulysses' crazy world view and obsession with symbols and the Old World enough. He's decided that someone who was in fact pretty unimportant in the scheme of things and could have been interchangeable with any number of other people for the same job is actually the secret to everything, made this unassuming person the key to deciding the fate of the Mojave, and invited them to his final judgement of mankind's sins. And the Courier shows up and is just "....what the gently caress?"
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 03:29
|
|
|
Ulysses is a very "avellone" character, and if you know what that means, you'll already know if you hate him or not.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 08:14
|
|
|
I don't hate Ulysses, but I pity him. He's so wrapped up in believing symbolism over people that he can't see what's in front of him. Everything is abstracted into ideas and metaphors and he is mentally incapable of separating a person's actions and words from the symbols he applies to them. Thankfully Avellone at least gave us the option to tell Ulysses he's an idiot and we're coming to shoot him with an anti-material rifle. That, and I did like how you had more than one option to talk him down if you didn't have max speech. He's not a poorly written character, but Avellone's intent with Ulysses misses the mark and Ulysses comes off as something else entirely. I feel Avellone wanted to make him this deeply poetic character with many insights, but instead he comes across as a horribly misguided fool too stubborn and incapable to see how loony he's gone. And sadly you can't call him out for that. You can either play his game and debate who knows their history better, or you say "lol nope" and blast his head off. He's no Kreia.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 08:21
|
|
|
megalodong posted:Ulysses is a very "avellone" character, and if you know what that means, you'll already know if you hate him or not. Any other examples of 'Avellone' characters? I'm curious now if I can find the resemblance in them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 11:47
|
|
|
TigerXtrm posted:Any other examples of 'Avellone' characters? I'm curious now if I can find the resemblance in them. Short list of characters he had a major role in designing: Rose of Sharon Cassidy, Kreia from KOTOR 2, Durance and Grieving Mother from Pillars of Eternity, plus several characters in Alpha Protocol, Planescape: Torment and NWN 2 that I'm probably forgetting.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 12:27
|
|
|
Apparently he did some writing for FTL: Advanced Edition? I don't know what though.CommissarMega posted:Well, yeah. That's the point. That's the mistake Ulysses was making. I guess there's the distinction between "this idea is dumb, I don't like the character whose mouth it's coming out of" and "this idea is dumb, I don't like the writer who came up with it and acted like it was a thing that made sense for a person to say." I guess the biggest aspect is that Ulysses isn't particularly depicted in other respects as some kind of weird idiot. He was traipsing around the other DLCs as some kind of clever guy, outsmarting whatever forces trapped the courier and acting as a major catalyst. It sure seems like the writer thought the screeds were something worth listening to, and that Ulysses's account was at least supposed to be plausible. You're given the option to disagree with his end conclusion, but not particularly his lines of reasoning. Wicked Them Beats posted:Short list of characters he had a major role in designing: Rose of Sharon Cassidy, Kreia from KOTOR 2, Durance and Grieving Mother from Pillars of Eternity, plus several characters in Alpha Protocol, Planescape: Torment and NWN 2 that I'm probably forgetting. Man, I remember Kreia being kinda hit and miss for me, but various factors I never ended up playing through her endgame screed more than once. Kotor 2 also did that thing of sticking actions into the player character's past without telling you about it first.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 16:22
|
|
|
Wicked Them Beats posted:Short list of characters he had a major role in designing: Rose of Sharon Cassidy, Kreia from KOTOR 2, Durance and Grieving Mother from Pillars of Eternity, plus several characters in Alpha Protocol, Planescape: Torment and NWN 2 that I'm probably forgetting. Stubborn idiots with really bad ideas and praxis? I'm only familiar with Ulysses, tho.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 16:39
|
|
|
they're people who are awful but you can't tell them to shut up because then you wouldn't see all the purple prose chris wrote about how you are the real bad guy if you think about it like, it's pretty loving telling that all the other companions in pillars have quests where you do stuff, but chris's characters have quests where you read 1000 pages of drivel instead
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 16:51
|
|
|
I like Cass. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 17:05
|
|
|
corn in the bible posted:they're people who are awful but you can't tell them to shut up because then you wouldn't see all the purple prose chris wrote about how you are the real bad guy if you think about it I liked Durance since he was such a cantankerous rear end in a top hat, but Grieving Mother was an absolute chore to deal with.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 17:14
|
|
|
Paul Revere 3000 posted:I like Cass. Her assuming my gay male character was hitting on her only to get shot down and her awkward reaction is one of my favorite moments in gaming.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 17:54
|
|
|
Shhh... we're hunting shitheads.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 17:56
|
|
|
Was Atton Rand written by someone else or was he another Avellone creation? I love Kreia but Atton is probably my favourite character in both of the KOTOR games. (HK-47 is great but he only becomes truly great in 2 when he's audibly uncomfortable with being a servant to a meatbag)
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 17:59
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:Man, I remember Kreia being kinda hit and miss for me, but various factors I never ended up playing through her endgame screed more than once. Kotor 2 also did that thing of sticking actions into the player character's past without telling you about it first. E: and Durance is an ok idea ruined by his huge misogyny
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 18:01
|
|
|
DACK FAYDEN posted:As someone just playing through KOROR2 for the first time, holy poo poo is Kreia ever an Avellone character and I hate her so much. perhaps you are the one who you hate so much. makes u think
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 18:03
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:He was traipsing around the other DLCs as some kind of clever guy, outsmarting whatever forces trapped the courier and acting as a major catalyst. So you're saying that his actions observed from a distance made him seem to the Courier like more grand and important symbol than he really was? Also intelligent and capable people are perfectly capable of turning their skills towards stupid goals they've become obsessed with.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 18:40
|
|
|
Would not surprise me if Ulysses is a Flat Earther.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 18:49
|
|
|
So I’m playing Lonesome Road right now and yes, you can both tell Ulysses “I don’t care, shut up” every time he interrupts to rant at you through ED-E and also call him crazy for trying to blame you for a complete accident. Ulysses’ only justification for it is telling you that you made the choice to do these innocuous things that you never could have know the consequences of instead of just staying home and doing nothing, which the Courier can rightly call him out for.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 18:56
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:I don't hate Ulysses, but I pity him. He's so wrapped up in believing symbolism over people that he can't see what's in front of him. Everything is abstracted into ideas and metaphors and he is mentally incapable of separating a person's actions and words from the symbols he applies to them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 23:06
|
|
|
achillesforever6 posted:Well that makes him seem like one of those people who posts videos about the new blockbuster and what every little detail in the trailer means. Well not everyone can deliver the Top Ten Facts YOU didn't know about DARTH VADER'S SUIT.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 23:09
|
|
|
OldMemes posted:It was an accident. The wrong package went to the wrong place and the wrong thing happened. If I'm diving into full-tilt crazy on my own side of it, I'd say the Brotherhood did it because they couldn't spare guys to guard the place, and couldn't risk it falling into the wrong hands. That they didn't stick the landing fits their recent profile. That said, 'wrong package to the wrong place' seems pretty on the nose for what went down. I can get behind the whole 'you made this place IT IS YOUR HOME' nonsense being a fanfic fever dream Ulysses is just taking as god's own gospel, but 'you just happen to deliver a device that sets off a nuclear weapon' feels like a(/yet another) bridge too far. I think I already said in the main Fallout/now currently FO76 thread, besides, that Lonesome Road should have been tied to the main plot, or should have been part of the base game, because of one element that will continue to bother me to this day. And rather than reiterate, I'll just repost: Old Boot posted:I wasn't especially thrilled with [seeing nukes get fired] in Lonesome Road, either. Firing off the nukes in that DLC was (or should have been) such a game-changer for the war as a whole that it barely being addressed felt like whiplash. If you go the 'nuke both sides' route, you've effectively annihilated the major supply routes of the two headlining factions, an act which has zero consequences except a wrist-slap karma hit, and a couple new areas to fart around in. I'd heard they couldn't make DLC that actually affected the main game for reasons, but holy poo poo, I decided to see what happened when you took this option and-- well. Yeah. Its inclusion feels like a huge misstep, and represents an enormous amount of lost potential.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 00:41
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:Well not everyone can deliver the Top Ten Facts YOU didn't know about DARTH VADER'S SUIT. The Emperor Palpatine Surgical Reconstruction Center is a powerful and poignant entry into the greater star wars universe Ulysses is 100% saved by his voice actor who i would listen to reading anything
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 02:33
|
|
|
I had no idea that cass was written by avellone. man can really write a character I dislike. That’s almost a skill in itself. When he writes a character to be “unlikable” I feel as though that’s more memorable than just existing as a smoothed down boring blob of a person. Makes them feel more like people. I guess that’s why he’s hit or miss for most people, but playing PoE2 I feel his absence especially with some of the bog standard companions.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 03:32
|
|
|
Old Boot posted:If I'm diving into full-tilt crazy on my own side of it, I'd say the Brotherhood did it because they couldn't spare guys to guard the place, and couldn't risk it falling into the wrong hands. That they didn't stick the landing fits their recent profile. It's especially funny that if you do this before getting the reputation reset after the first act of the game, both sides are just like "Yeah it's cool we forgive you."
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 03:34
|
|
|
aniviron posted:It's especially funny that if you do this before getting the reputation reset after the first act of the game, both sides are just like "Yeah it's cool we forgive you." I know I'd want a person who can launch a nuke on my side.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 03:49
|
|
|
Yeah, someone unstable enough to actually use nukes is a great candidate for induction. The tough part is not launching the nukes, all it takes is a button press.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 03:53
|
|
|
My first time, I thought the button said “lunch”
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 04:09
|
|
|
Pretty sure Stephen heck was avellone right
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 13:08
|
|
|
achillesforever6 posted:Well that makes him seem like one of those people who posts videos about the new blockbuster and what every little detail in the trailer means. Pretty much. After playing through Lonesome Road yesterday, the interpretation of him as just a sad crazy person makes a lot more sense and is now seeming intentional. He can't come up with any more justification other than "You could have just done nothing, therefore you made these choices and it's your fault. No, I don't care that you never could have known what the consequences were, it's your fault for being curious." Every time he interrupts you, you can immediately take a dialogue option where you tell him that you don't give a poo poo about his rambling and just want to know what monstrosities you need to kill next to get to him. When you meet him, you can cut off his dramatic meeting from the very start and shoot him in the face instead of bothering to engage him. That's also why it takes a Speech of 100 to talk him down: you can't exactly tell a crazy guy that they're crazy and expect them to snap out of it. You need to actually be able to challenge his delusions in a way that his broken brain acknowledges.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 15:25
|
|
|
chitoryu12 posted:Pretty much. After playing through Lonesome Road yesterday, the interpretation of him as just a sad crazy person makes a lot more sense and is now seeming intentional. He can't come up with any more justification other than "You could have just done nothing, therefore you made these choices and it's your fault. No, I don't care that you never could have known what the consequences were, it's your fault for being curious." Every time he interrupts you, you can immediately take a dialogue option where you tell him that you don't give a poo poo about his rambling and just want to know what monstrosities you need to kill next to get to him. When you meet him, you can cut off his dramatic meeting from the very start and shoot him in the face instead of bothering to engage him. Talking him down is great because it involves you the courier making yourself vulnerable to Ulysses. You tell him that you are willing to die just for his sake. Then you both stand against the marked men flooding in from the Divide.    e; 
MariusLecter fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Feb 4, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 16:53
|
|
|
The problem with Avellone characters like Ulysses and Kriea is that Avellone turns them into mouthpieces for his opinions on a particular franchise instead of just being characters; it's part of why you can't argue with them. Sure, you can tell them that you disagree, or tell them to shut up, but that's not the same as saying something meaningful to refute their ideologies. This wasn't such a big problem with KOTOR 2 when it was released (random aside that everyone should read Scorchy's LP at some point) since I guess the extended universe had room to talk about the ideologies of the Jedi and Sith, but Fallout was about how society rebuilt itself in different ways after a nuclear war, not how the light and dark sides of force fought huge wars just to keep itself in balance. Furthermore, New Vegas puts a spotlight on the war around Hoover Dam and the player's part in it, while in KOTOR 2 the whole war is mostly in the background. A character like Ulysses just feels out of place in New Vegas, and trying to retcon in a personal conflict between Ulysses and the player character who had no backstory before fell flat on face for me. And even if Ulysses says things about the different factions values and ideologies, it doesn't change the fact that he just wants to nuke everything to start over, or that actually doing so doesn't really change much in the base game.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2019 04:31
|
|
|
It's a hot take. If you're lucky it'll blow somebody's mind man, if you're not so lucky, maybe they just don't get it and they'll respect you for having so many words in you. If you take into account that somebody could possibly understand everything and comprehensively disagree, then it stops being a hot take. Honestly to me the pinnacle of that sort of thing where you have to wade through a whole diatribe to helplessly deal with the dumb conclusion is Bioshock Infinite's ending, which still gets me angry even now. Kreia makes wild leaps of logic (and her arguments rely on specific directorial choices that I felt brought down the game as a whole) but she still gets like a C for effort. I think the game's at least a B before you get to the half-finished slog of Malachor V.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2019 05:21
|
|
|
Not being able to call him out for being on Team Rapist/how badly that wrecks his arguments and credibility was more than moderately annoying, too. I mean, cool, you're not with the war-mongering slavers hellbent on subjugating and dehumanizing half the population anymore. Tell me why I should listen to you? Because you suddenly grew a conscience, but only after serving one of the most reprehensible factions I've ever seen in a game? lol, nah, try again. Get the XP for talking him down, then murder the gently caress out of him as backpay for not dying with dignity when he had the chance. EDIT: Being a little less glib about it, if this was meant to be a (really circuitous) 'redemption' arc for a formerly Legion character, it missed every mark, and did so aggressively. Like, I can get the impetus behind wiping the slate clean when you come to grips with the fact that you, yourself, contributed more than a little to pointless human suffering, but he's instead obsessively projecting that guilt onto someone else (the Courier), assuming it exists, and I don't get the sense that he actually feels all that guilty/angry about what the Legion did. Or, if he did, it was buried in a Legion playthrough, which, lol, no thanks, and there was absolutely no room to point that out to him. Assuming that was in any way buried in his narrative. If it had been, it might have been a tad more compelling (but I still would have killed him). Old Boot fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Feb 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2019 06:12
|
|
|
Of all the reasons to hate about Ulysses this is the weirdest. All the men are slaves just as much as the women. His tribe got razed and taken captive it’s not like he asked to join. He probably realized their hypocrisy early on which is why he pushed to become a frumentari. I could understand this point if we got the original Ulysses where he was “the legion mouthpiece” but if you’re gonna blame that on him might as well blame the pc for leaving Caesar alive when you meet him the first time. There’s plenty of reasons to hate him but this one rings a little hollow.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2019 09:36
|
|
|
Still better than most characters you'll encounter in Fallout 3. Goddamn.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2019 09:38
|
|
|
The Legion broke Ulysses, and he'd been living in denial of that fact for years until the White Legs tried to "honour" him by adopting his Twisted Hairs braiding and it all came rushing back to him.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2019 09:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 14:54 |
|
|
Old Boot posted:Or, if he did, it was buried in a Legion playthrough, which, lol, no thanks, if only you knew the power of the dark side
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2019 10:26
|
|
