|
GoluboiOgon posted:venezuela doesn't produce enough of its own food for subsidies to end hunger. chavez should have focused much more heavily on growing the agricultural industry to the point that venezuela wasn't dependent on imports the second that he decided to challenge the us. Venezuela was not as reliant on food imports when Chavez took office. Much of the problem comes from his government fixing food prices extremely low to the point that it was impossible for most domestic producers to turn a profit, causing a lot of domestic agriculture to go under. Obviously this makes people really happy to have cheap food in the short term but it kills the means of production in the long term along with any potential for growth. Additional problems arose from the government's tendency to seize and liquidate the ones who remained successful under the guise of nationalization. This was a great scam to make some quick money for some government dudes and their buddies at the expense of people they didn't like - but again this is shortsighted as gently caress and looting the food infrastructure of a nation has what should have been obvious downsides. It had nothing to do with challenging the US - there was no shortage of places to buy food from or even provide food aid (including the US) throughout this process. Domestic food production tanked and the oil production previously funding food imports tanked for similar reasons. A lot of things would have gone better had Chavez focused on something that didn't involve looting the country while propping up short term public support with grand, unsustainable gestures. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Feb 3, 2019 |
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 21:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 10:39 |
|
|
This interview with Maduro is both infuriating and hilarious.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 22:05
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1092092402498596864?s=20
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 23:04
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/venanalysis/status/1092087115876392960
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 23:19
|
|
|
I dunno, seems to me like she's just arguing in bad faith
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 23:41
|
|
|
A Typical Goon posted:I dunno, seems to me like she's just arguing in bad faith "Arguing in bad faith warrants death threats" - a typical goon
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2019 23:50
|
|
|
Some news! Venezuela crisis: US sending aid 'at Guaidó's request' quote:The US says it is sending aid to crisis-hit Venezuela following a request from Juan Guaidó, the opposition leader who has declared himself interim president. Honestly, it's not a bad plan. If Guaidó can successfully convince the military to allow food aid into the country, it severely undermines Maduro's legitimacy and gives Guaidó an instant win. And so long as food aid is just sitting just across the border, that makes Maduro look like more and more of an rear end in a top hat for refusing to allow food into the country while people are starving. Also, more countries are looking at recognizing Guaidó if Maduro doesn't call for a new Presidential election (since everyone can see that the call for parliamentary elections is complete and utter horseshit) https://twitter.com/ReutersVzla/status/1092219853337911296 https://twitter.com/ReutersVzla/status/1092219490459357185
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 02:51
|
|
|
I'm surprised Austria and Hungary didn't do so already. I guess it's the EU cockblocking them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 03:07
|
|
|
Negrostrike posted:I'm surprised Austria and Hungary didn't do so already. I guess it's the EU cockblocking them. The EU parliament has already voted to recognize him at least.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 03:17
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:Some news! if you are less charitable, you could also suggest that this is a ploy to set up military encampments on the border to prepare for an invasion. self-defense against any incursion into venezuelan territory can then be cast as a cold-blooded attack on us forces involved in food aid in the media, and used as a pretext for war. hopefully, this is just paranoia and john bolton and guaido only want to distribute food into venezuela.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 03:58
|
|
|
GoluboiOgon posted:if you are less charitable, you could also suggest that this is a ploy to set up military encampments on the border to prepare for an invasion. self-defense against any incursion into venezuelan territory can then be cast as a cold-blooded attack on us forces involved in food aid in the media, and used as a pretext for war. I don't see any suggestion in Acebuckeye's post that the US military would be involved in transporting or distributing the aid, at least not past the collection points outside Venezuela. Any attempt to stage a provocation with US troops on the Colombia-Venezuela border would inevitably raise the question of what those troops were doing there.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 04:02
|
|
|
The US is ignoring international law for a reason. The sanctions are a flagrant violation international law which needs to go through the UNSC.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 04:13
|
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:The US is ignoring international law for a reason. The sanctions are a flagrant violation international law which needs to go through the UNSC. No they are not.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 04:20
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:Some news! Plus, think of all the CIA that can get in through this vector.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 04:57
|
|
|
Judakel posted:Plus, think of all the CIA that can get in through this vector. Yeah, man, CIA is gonna send in so much LSD laced Nescafe... Maybe agents hidden in every bag of corn!
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 04:59
|
|
|
Halfway to Caracas when a horrified CIA pilot realizes they forgot to pressurize the cargo hold.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 05:27
|
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:The US is ignoring international law for a reason. The sanctions are a flagrant violation international law which needs to go through the UNSC. while I somewhat doubt you specifically would answer this if you could, at what point do the sanctions actually violate international law? freezing the assets of assholes who happen to be / because they are foreign government officials? blocking particular sorts of financial transactions while letting others through? blocking a wacko new narrow-use currency? the gold stuff and the new oil stuff seems like it might cross the line but I genuinely don't know fake edit: looks like unilateral sanctions aren't illegal under UN rules, except for when they are  (ie they're not UN illegal unless they violate another UN rule) I think you're confusing "the security council can impose sanctions that require multilateral compliance" with "sanctions that don't have SC approval are illegal"
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 06:28
|
|
|
There are some interpretations of international law that assert that economic sanctions violate a nation’s collective right to development. But I don’t know of any cases where unilateral sanctions have been found to be illegal so as far as I know it’s just some scholars’ hot take.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 06:45
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:while I somewhat doubt you specifically would answer this if you could, at what point do the sanctions actually violate international law? Hypotheticals are pointless. It's quite clear that the current sanctions will deny Venezuela from the right of economic development which is a basic human right. It will lead to extreme famine which is also illegal. And yes the impended crisis will be far worse than the current one for those who suggest it "can't get any worse".
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 06:46
|
|
|
Warbadger posted:Yeah, man, CIA is gonna send in so much LSD laced Nescafe... Maybe agents hidden in every bag of corn! You guys are shockingly dumb.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 06:56
|
|
|
Judakel posted:You guys are shockingly dumb. dude the CIA doesn't need any kind of cover to get into Venezuela, the border with Columbia is a hotbed for smuggling as it is. The ulterior motive of offering food is clearly to destabilize Maduro's support both amongst the wider populace and the military and to undermine his legitimacy, trying to factor the boogeyman of the CIA into it doesn't actually add anything to the conversation as it's baseless and worthless speculation.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 07:08
|
|
|
You guys kept on complaining about the "economic war" being waged by the US and now you finally got it this month. I think it's a basic no-brainer that we should give food and medicine to a bunch of starving people. Don't you?
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 07:42
|
|
|
To be honest my main concerns are that step-President will steal the food and use it to line his pockets like Maduro did with CLAP, or that the Venezuelan National Guard will seize it and do the same.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 07:44
|
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:Hypotheticals are pointless. It's quite clear that the current sanctions will deny Venezuela from the right of economic development which is a basic human right. It will lead to extreme famine which is also illegal. And yes the impended crisis will be far worse than the current one for those who suggest it "can't get any worse". If deliberately causing famine is illegal, drag Maduro to the Hague. Hopefully there will be a comprehensive, international-based food aid plan for Venezuela set in motion immediately, which will not be blocked by Maduro (or any other actor).
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 08:29
|
|
|
Are people still flooding out of Venezuela? I’m surprised I haven’t really heard much in a couple months. Did it slow down or is it just the "new normal" and thus no longer news?
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 17:03
|
|
|
From what I can tell it's been the new normal for over a year now that people just pour through the border, mostly to colombia. Also, https://twitter.com/IntheNow_tweet/status/1090670102209544192
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 17:33
|
|
|
I haven't seen any new info, UNHCR is still saying around 3 million people have left venezuela, but only like half a million have applied for refugee/asylum status. Which seems crazy, 10% of the countries population has left the country.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 17:33
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:while I somewhat doubt you specifically would answer this if you could, at what point do the sanctions actually violate international law? When has the USA ever cared about violating international law?
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 18:03
|
|
|
e: bah w/e
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 18:07
|
|
|
Hmm looks like the thing that I spent the entire thread trying to warn would happen, and being told over and over would absolutely never happen... is happening... It's pretty telling that they just don't even bother to dress things up in some propaganda rhetoric to justify imperialist aggression anymore. They can just be open about what they're doing and what it's really about because they know that at this point nothing can stop them and that there are so many people will stand with them in support. They can leave it to the media pundits to do the work of spinning the thing into something that the liberals who still pretend to care about humanitarian values can swallow.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 18:24
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:Hmm looks like the thing that I spent the entire thread trying to warn would happen, and being told over and over would absolutely never happen... is happening... This is standard modus operandi for the USA and lol at anyone who unironically bought the CIA agit propaganda. The USA is exacerbating all the economic problems over there, there's extremely tenuous evidence that any looting/robbery/embezzlement was happening on Maduro's part, and US intervention = privatize all your poo poo and sell it back to you for more than you were paying before and murder the gently caress out of anyone who doesn't like it. What about the "looting" of food supplies by private entities buying up cheap food at subsidized prices for export out of the country? Nah that's not what we want to focus on lol it's all about that oil oil oil. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Feb 4, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 18:27
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:... there's extremely tenuous evidence that any looting/robbery/embezzlement was happening on Maduro's part... The only "tenuous" thing here is any relationship of the above statement to reality. How can you expect to be taken at all seriously saying stuff like this?
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 18:34
|
|
|
Truga posted:From what I can tell it's been the new normal for over a year now that people just pour through the border, mostly to colombia. https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishmaeldaro/quirky-viral-video-channel-is-funded-by-the-russian-govt Five seconds with google.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 18:38
|
|
|
Rust Martialis posted:The only "tenuous" thing here is any relationship of the above statement to reality. Where is the evidence aside from a US probe and a bunch of US banks saying "yeah totally look at these wires?" Why do we not care that the banks are supposedly laundering all this money? Because it's just a drop in the bucket relative to the other hundreds of billions they launder for cartel/terror groups every year or what? Figure out who laundered Maduro's money and pull their charter. Should be simple. Rust Martialis posted:How can you expect to be taken at all seriously saying stuff like this? I don't care what this thread thinks to be honest. For dozens of pages it was the worst kind of CIA apologia. Get your heads out of the sand. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Feb 4, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 18:41
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishmaeldaro/quirky-viral-video-channel-is-funded-by-the-russian-govt
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 18:43
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishmaeldaro/quirky-viral-video-channel-is-funded-by-the-russian-govt It's insane that you see a clip of Bolton re-affirming what he and the state department have been saying for over a year but because Russians showed you the clip it must be just entirely fake and not real or even worth discussion. Holy poo poo. The USA funds the massacre of civilians in Yemen and around the globe but you think they care about the Venezuelan people? Why? It's 100% about privatizing assets, controlling oil markets, and hegemony in South America. You're a rube if you think it is anything else. To these supply siders privatizing everything *is* helping. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Feb 4, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 18:44
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:What about the "looting" of food supplies by private entities buying up cheap food at subsidized prices for export out of the country? Why would the government allow that to happen? It seems like exactly the kind of thing you should expect and plan for with big subsidies for anything If food hoarding by certain companies is actually a big problem why didn't Maduro just nationalize those companies and distribute the food?
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 18:46
|
|
|
Flavahbeast posted:Why would the government allow that to happen? It seems like exactly the kind of thing you should expect and plan for with big subsidies for anything Scrree posted:people keep saying that and while i don't disagree in spirit, i do think people underestimate the difficulty of building productive forces in a world system entirely designed to keep nations like venezuela underdeveloped. \/\/\/ that's also not a bad answer Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Feb 4, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 18:48
|
|
|
Flavahbeast posted:Why would the government allow that to happen? It seems like exactly the kind of thing you should expect and plan for with big subsidies for anything
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 18:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 10:39 |
|
|
Moridin920 posted:there's extremely tenuous evidence that any looting/robbery/embezzlement was happening on Maduro's part lmao
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2019 18:55
|
|