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I'm pretty sure no one has used an airbrush since the 80s; it's all Photoshop.
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Feb 4, 2019 15:35
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Stop talking about podcasts.
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Feb 4, 2019 15:42
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slap me and kiss me posted:Stop talking about podcasts. Be the content poster you want to see in the world.
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Feb 4, 2019 15:43
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Liquid Communism posted:Be the content poster you want to see in the world. Deal. Drivethrurpg is terrible. I know that there's a bunch of chatter about Itch.io as a potential substitute. What are components of a storefront for rpgs that people would want to see? My list: - A modern website - A way to separate lists of lists from actual adventures and systems - Better metrics and analytics available to publishers - A way to integrate the storefront with one's own website (e.g. "Store powered by dtrpg") What else we got?
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Feb 4, 2019 15:46
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remusclaw posted:Exactly. New players is great. New perspectives and ideas is great. There has always been gatekeeping in the hobby trying to discourage the wrong sort of people and there have been harassment campaigns aimed at people pushing and enjoying the wrong sort of game. While all this happens the same shitheads were bemoaning the lack of new players while simultaneously doing their level best to keep people out. It’s generally good. But the thing is it’s a similar situation to what caused Ron Edwards’s initial b____ d_____ allegation; new players being funnelled in the direction of a system that isn’t very good at something (Vampire then, 5e now) while being told that all the cool kids (braggy goth nerds then, podcasters now) are doing that thing with it and if they can’t it’s their fault and they need to try harder. Except now it’s much stronger because the cool kids aren’t just allegedly being cool, they’re making bank and there’s (what seems to be) video evidence. The Vampire trend did bring a ton of people in, but it’s not clear if they stayed long, had a positive impression, or ever played much other than Vampire.
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Feb 4, 2019 15:48
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Comrade Gorbash posted:The gently caress is wrong with you? I don't know? I don't know what I'm even saying that is controversial. People edit poo poo. Some people prefer unedited poo poo. Other people are surprised that people prefer unedited poo poo. This applies across various media. What is even the issue??
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Feb 4, 2019 15:48
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Jimbozig posted:I don't know? I don't know what I'm even saying that is controversial. People edit poo poo. Some people prefer unedited poo poo. Other people are surprised that people prefer unedited poo poo. This applies across various media. What is even the issue??
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Feb 4, 2019 15:52
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slap me and kiss me posted:Deal. Drivethrurpg is terrible. I know that there's a bunch of chatter about Itch.io as a potential substitute. Working keyword tagging to allow easy navigation of games with similarities, be they mechanical or setting. At least minimally curated reviews so as to prevent brigading by disgruntled *gators and emphasize reviews from verified purchasers. Support for creators linking/uploading content such as actual play sessions or how-to videos to let them show off their game's moving parts to a prospective buyer. Basically just mine Steam before they stopped curating content in any way for ideas.
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Feb 4, 2019 15:57
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maybe "deceptive" is the wrong word to use, but I do think that Jimbozig hit upon a point wherein there's a sort of divide where some people want the raw/unedited "Actually Actual" play, whereas other people want the edited, made-for-entertainment Actual Play, and a lot of the conversation seems to revolve around how being exposed largely to the latter might lead one to think that that's how the game works, when it's really more of the former. I mean, yeah, an edited book isn't "deceptive", but the target activity isn't reading the book, but rather writing it, so never seeing all the stuff that winds up on the cutting room floor can shift peoples's expectations?
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Feb 4, 2019 16:01
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I don't really listen to RP podcasts but listening to some people play an RPG unedited seems like the worst thing
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Feb 4, 2019 16:09
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Liquid Communism posted:Working keyword tagging to allow easy navigation of games with similarities, be they mechanical or setting. A proper storefront could certainly do with a better review system. I had an idea on that front - grade the reviews that are posted, and if a user has consistently good reviews, reduce the price of their purchases by lowering the storefront's cut by a small amount. Also, apparently dtrpg allows people to post reviews without having purchased the product, which is totally horrifying.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:10
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Andrast posted:I don't really listen to RP podcasts but listening to some people play an RPG unedited seems like the worst thing I personally cut my teeth on RPPR and haven't really found anything else to my liking since, and if clockworkjoe is saying that their APs are unedited, then I guess I listen to and enjoy the unedited clips?
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Feb 4, 2019 16:13
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gradenko_2000 posted:maybe "deceptive" is the wrong word to use, but I do think that Jimbozig hit upon a point wherein there's a sort of divide where some people want the raw/unedited "Actually Actual" play, whereas other people want the edited, made-for-entertainment Actual Play, and a lot of the conversation seems to revolve around how being exposed largely to the latter might lead one to think that that's how the game works, when it's really more of the former. And Critical Role in particular (and the rest of the G&S Good RPG Shows like LA By Night and Shield of Tomorrow) occupy weird interim locations between the two. They're unedited and free-flowing with minimal cuts and breaks - but they're professionally produced, have at least some behind the scenes staff which sometimes enables them to keep flowing where they otherwise wouldn't, like people bringing in entire maps in CR, the GMs get at least some pay to do prep work (or are employed in some capacity by the RPG's design team, as in LA by Night), they have some not inconsiderable budget, but most importantly perhaps, the casts are people who are generally professional actors of some description, so they're a LOT better at improv (and at creativity in general) than the average neckbeard. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, improv can be great fun when they stay out of the weeds (and still entertaining even when they're IN the weeds sometimes, some of those shopping episodes have been genuinely hilarious.) but it does provide a very misleading impression of what the average play experience is going to be like. Because most people aren't professional actors, and the demographics of TTRPG players in general swing FAR away from the demographics of the casts of those shows. Critical Role isn't deceptive, it doesn't pretend to be something it's not - but at the same time, it doesn't claim to be an average schlub's game of D&D, especially not later on in the show's run.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:14
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I really get the idea that just the basic concept of playing with performance in mind is going to have different effects on people's behaviour and play than playing for their own fun and that of the group in mind. That said, it's not much weirder than a Lets Play compared to actually playing the game. Hell, a friend of mine came around on 4e after watching Let's Play D&D and realising it wasn't completely awful.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:21
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gradenko_2000 posted:maybe "deceptive" is the wrong word to use, but I do think that Jimbozig hit upon a point wherein there's a sort of divide where some people want the raw/unedited "Actually Actual" play, whereas other people want the edited, made-for-entertainment Actual Play, and a lot of the conversation seems to revolve around how being exposed largely to the latter might lead one to think that that's how the game works, when it's really more of the former. As for the edited podcasts, there's obviously variance but the companion live streams give us a very good idea of what is being cut. And it's mostly silence or troubleshooting the stream/recording technology. There are digressions lost in some of the edited podcasts, but even those are mostly waiting while someone Googles something. Which does lead to a real critique of Actual Plays - there are good games that don't make for good APs. That's where the broad narrative aspect has its effect. A game like Torchbearer, which I quite like, is going to have a lot more moments where what's happening is rules discussion or very narrow mechanical interactions or just straight up book keeping compared to something like Apocalypse World. There is absolutely an audience for that, but it's a smaller one. The other thing that can happen is like when Adventure Zone did D&D, which is the closest to what I would count as "deceptive." And that's not because of editing. It was because of the way it was run. Griffin ran it really fast and loose, actively avoiding getting bogged down with the RAW when it conflicted with the story/show they were doing. I agree, it's not the experience you would get out-of-the-box with any edition of D&D and is at least in part driven by the medium, though I've also been in home games that were run that way. But that disconnect between the game rules and the AP isn't driven by editing. In subsequent seasons Adventure Zone has moved on to games that support play closer to their preferred style out-of-the-box. The disconnect isn't a false impression of how game sessions can go, it's a false impression as to which games fit that style.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:25
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Comrade Gorbash posted:Airbrushing and audio editing are not equivalent and calling audio editing deceptive is some galaxy brain nonsense. Audio editing of the kind done for podcasting is akin to editing for writing. Do you think an edited book is deceptive? I agree with you for podcasts that are scripted. For podcasts that purport to capture an unscripted interaction, I disagree with you for the reasons Gradenko laid out, and that I described in my post earlier drawing a comparison to basketball. If you cut out a part of a basketball game in post-production, that's very different from cutting a paragraph in a novel you are writing. An RPG podcast is somewhere in between those two, and probably closer to the basketball game.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:29
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I feel like the RPG podcasts suck a lot as they are. I hope that they cease their efforts to become worse.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:30
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Jimbozig posted:I agree with you for podcasts that are scripted. For podcasts that purport to capture an unscripted interaction, I disagree with you for the reasons Gradenko laid out, and that I described in my post earlier drawing a comparison to basketball. If you cut out a part of a basketball game in post-production, that's very different from cutting a paragraph in a novel you are writing. An RPG podcast is somewhere in between those two, and probably closer to the basketball game. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 16:32
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Fun fact: The Superbowl has commercial breaks.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:34
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Comrade Gorbash posted:The problem with this is the perception of what's being left on the cutting room floor. Many of these APs either are live streamed, or regularly do supplemental live streams. In those cases there is no cutting room floor. Yeah, I'm totally with you on this. The podcasts I've listened to probably edit poo poo out a lot less often than makeup and clothing ads airbrush their models. I'm not saying anything at all about other forms of audio production like making voices clearer, removing background noise, etc. Those are absolutely not in any way deceptive and are nothing like airbrushing - they are more like a photographer making sure they have good lighting to capture the shot. Comrade Gorbash posted:This just tells me you know as little about basketball as a live sport as you do about Actual Plays. ??? I've played it plenty in my younger days, and I've been to a few raptors games, and I don't know what you are taking about. TV broadcasts try not to cut out any of the actual gameplay. Which is what we are talking about here. Hyphz was talking about rerolling things, and people were talking about doing multiple takes and so on. If your point is that those things are not as common as some believe, that's totally valid. Jimbozig fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 16:36
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Jimbozig posted:??? Yet, in all the criticisms of professional sports, "gives people an unrealistic idea of how they're played" isn't one of them. Because it's loving nonsense. Jimbozig posted:Which is what we are talking about here. Hyphz was talking about rerolling things, and people were talking about doing multiple takes and so on. EDIT: The closest example I can think of where this happened with an AP was when Friends at the Table re-recorded the first session for one group in the Twilight Mirage season. But that didn't occur because they didn't like a roll or wanted to redo a scene to make it sound better. It happened because they realized one of the playbooks worked in a way that wasn't fun for the group and went places they weren't comfortable with, for either play or presentation. So they restarted the game with a new character/playbook and went from there. They were very upfront that this occurred and why, and that the main difference between a home game and an AP was that they didn't have the option to just move on to a new campaign entirely. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 16:43
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I thought PDF prices were a probatable topic.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:59
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Comrade Gorbash posted:My other point is, yes, hyphz pulled that out of their rear end. It was based on what theironjef wrote although he didn’t say what he’d known to be edited out. But a game that’s 20 minutes of fun in 2 hours is still misrepresented if you edit out everything but those 20 minutes.
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Feb 4, 2019 17:10
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hyphz posted:It was based on what theironjef wrote although he didn’t say what he’d known to be edited out. But a game that’s 20 minutes of fun in 2 hours is still misrepresented if you edit out everything but those 20 minutes. the well-known epidemic of 20-minute actual play podcasts if anything, the opposite of this is actually true
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Feb 4, 2019 17:13
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Biomute posted:I thought PDF prices were a probatable topic. only when it comes to you, buddy boy
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Feb 4, 2019 17:13
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Okay. So how do I, as a hobby developer avoid devaluing ‘professional’ work when I release a product? I don’t want to detract from my own work, but it’s not going to have the level of polish that a professional product would, but at the same time that may not be apparent at the storefront.
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Feb 4, 2019 17:42
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You have to put a "AMATEURISH PRODUCT" label on your stuff so people will know to pay less for it Actually you just have to pay attention to sales and adjust pricing to what the market will bear, and the market will decide what your stuff is worth, but this assumes that the market is efficient, and it isn't, and also what you're selling isn't a completely interchangeable commodity, which means comparative pricing is always also inefficient, and plus not everyone will have heard of your product, so you cannot even presume that your actual sales represent what the market will bear, so the real real answer is you just look at what other similarish products seem to be selling for, take a stab at pricing yourself, and that's the best you can do. You have no obligation to tell people that your stuff is worth less and they should pay more for more professional products, that's not your job. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 17:46
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Leperflesh posted:. You have no obligation to tell people that your stuff is worth less and they should pay more for more professional products, that's not your job. Leperflesh posted:. You have no obligation to tell people that your stuff is worth less and they should pay more for more professional products, that's not your job. Leperflesh posted:. You have no obligation to tell people that your stuff is worth less and they should pay more for more professional products, that's not your job. Empty quoting because this is important. Don't shortchange yourself.
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Feb 4, 2019 18:00
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I figure much like Steam, you have to figure out a price point that will fall under people's 'impulse buy' threshold for the outward quality you offer while also not being so cheap that people assume it must be garbage they're hoping to make up for on volume.
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Feb 4, 2019 18:11
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It's also a bad idea to believe that your efforts begin and end at producing a product. One should also be budgeting at least an equivalent amount of effort at marketing and making a name for it.
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Feb 4, 2019 18:27
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I think the biggest problem with a Drive-thru RPG competitor is that much like Steam I already have so much stuff on there. Not that I would never buy something somewhere else, but unless you compete hard on price I am going to choose the option that keeps my pdf collection in the fewest possible places and it the biggest possible chunks. There are certainly products that if they were only sold on a different platform I wouldn't touch, no matter how much I like them. (Looking at you SJG for Ars Magica and In Nomine pdfs). If you are not drastically undercutting your own products on other platforms, you are just rolling the dice on making more money on less sales which is the anti Steam model.
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Feb 4, 2019 18:54
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It's weird that airbrushing models was the comparison point for APs when a much more modern and similar comparison point exists in Reality TV and it's gamut of varying levels of editing or seemingly way too convenient circumstances
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Feb 4, 2019 18:54
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Is "Who's line" really a realistic example of how improv goes? Should there be disclaimers?
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Feb 4, 2019 18:57
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TBF it's a bit weird to analogise reality TV to what is essentially... reality TV.
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Feb 4, 2019 18:57
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like, isn't that how RPGs should be run? like if you're doing it right, imo, you're finding out what goals the PCs have and determining what the players enjoy/want to see in the game, and you throw that at them
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Feb 4, 2019 18:59
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My PC's didn't die facedown in the muck so that these loving snowflakes...
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Feb 4, 2019 19:01
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remusclaw posted:Is "Who's line" really a realistic example of how improv goes? Should there be disclaimers? There used to be a home game of Whose Line which I ran a couple times in high school and there’s a difference but it’s less. The primary difference is that the harder/more complex games tend to stalemate and there’s the risk of getting stuck on a theme (but Paul Merton did that too so wth)
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Feb 4, 2019 19:03
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Xelkelvos posted:It's weird that airbrushing models was the comparison point for APs when a much more modern and similar comparison point exists in Reality TV and it's gamut of varying levels of editing or seemingly way too convenient circumstances Christ, they constantly edit people's sentences together. I watched a couple episodes of poo poo on HGN the other day and I don't think they let a single sentence go by without splicing the audio together from multiple lines. Once I notice it it becomes super distracting.
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Feb 4, 2019 19:07
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Personally I think a reasonable fundamental difference is that APs are produced for an audience to consume, and the TTRPGs most people play have no audience but themselves, and shouldn't be beholden to performance rather than experience the way an AP must be. This includes all the stuff that makes gaming more fun but less watchable, like talking through emotional conflict, taking five when a player needs to, or yeah, discussing plot options ahead of time in varying degrees of detail to make sure the twist doesn't ruin things for anyone. I don't expect an entertainment product to do that (in what we see as an audience), but I'd honestly appreciate some TTRPG edutainment being produced to help smooth over people's entrance to the hobby. Nobody just walks in knowing how to make the rulebook into fun, though I imagine APs do help.
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Feb 4, 2019 19:12
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So, in a lot of reality TV, Producers do a bunch of things to make a given episode more interesting or dramatic by either editing the footage to emphasize certain events (see: Big Brother, The Apprentice, MasterChef) or create a sort of artificial narrative "arc" or altering the circumstances around the people in the show to gin up situations to make it more interesting (see: Pawn Stars, Storage Wars). One of the things that APs can differ by is that the players themselves are both cast and production so in the former situation, the player or GM can work together to make a specific thing happen while trying to make it look "organic" and in the latter situation, briefing the players beforehand on the plot beats to prepare better reactions. Another way to think about it is in an AP with professional actors/improv people, it's like watching a cooking competition show with pro chefs. Compare that to an AP with more normal people, and you have a show more like Nailed It!
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Feb 4, 2019 19:41
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