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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:India The same India run by a far-right Hindu nationalist? Uh-huh.
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Feb 5, 2019 02:51
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Acebuckeye13 posted:dude the CIA doesn't need any kind of cover to get into Venezuela, the border with Columbia is a hotbed for smuggling as it is. The ulterior motive of offering food is clearly to destabilize Maduro's support both amongst the wider populace and the military and to undermine his legitimacy, trying to factor the boogeyman of the CIA into it doesn't actually add anything to the conversation as it's baseless and worthless speculation. I wonder if a vector would make that all much easier? Nah.
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Feb 5, 2019 03:51
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Flayer posted:Bolton does say what the title of the video is saying. Yes, it is a pro-Russian news service but we're talking about the content of the video here. No, he is saying it is a deep fake and everything is fine.
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Feb 5, 2019 03:55
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Judakel posted:No, he is saying it is a deep fake and everything is fine.
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Feb 5, 2019 04:54
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I'll take deflective epistemic relativism for two hundred, Alex. I mean, c'mon, it took three posts to identify how its frame was misrepresenting even John Bolton, idiot king of warmongers, regarding the US's plans for the region. You don't even have to scroll up that far to see it!Flayer posted:We're talking about the reasons for America to get involved with Venezeula, in this thread. You seem to be on a mission to straw man Russian newsbots to dismiss a news item you don't like getting any attention. I'm not the one posting them, and what we keep finding is the news items and arguments made by them...aren't. Hence the discussion of what he says versus what people say he says, just a little ways above. It shouldn't be hard to source things from sources that aren't part of a state propaganda apparatus, or even, at a bare minimum, acknowledge and contextualize the sourcing. People shouldn't have to go to In the NOW, or The Miami Voice, or TeleSUR, to support these arguments, and if that's where they keep having to go, and where they keep refusing to state or acknowledge their sourcing, it stops looking remotely honest. edit: lol they swapped the miami voice av for a woman in the same pose Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 06:02
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Let us remember that venezuela was never socialist to begin with therefore it cannot be used to as an example of a failed socialist.
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Feb 5, 2019 06:02
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Discendo Vox posted:I'm not the one posting them, and what we keep finding is the news items and arguments made by them...aren't. It shouldn't be hard to source things from sources that aren't part of a state propaganda apparatus, or even, at a bare minimum, acknowledge and contextualize the sourcing. Lol yes the pro US coup side definitely doesn't source wildly biased publications that blindly cheerlead the newest US puppet government stealing from the Venezuelan government.
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Feb 5, 2019 06:05
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uninterrupted posted:Lol yes the pro US coup side definitely doesn't source wildly biased publications that blindly cheerlead the newest US puppet government stealing from the Venezuelan government. You should educate yourself on the actual situation in venezuela instead of virtue signalling russian state propaganda
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Feb 5, 2019 06:07
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Squalid posted:I was making a point of using as many sources as possible to make it more difficult for someone to argue I was using biased propaganda to make my point. That statement was just too juicy not to post though. The system was so blatantly corrupt and broken the bandits could barely even be bothered to hide it, and the journalists easily found records demonstrating how the Venezuelan government was being over charged presumably as part of a classic kickbacks scheme. Maduro's ministers collaborate on the profiteering with greedy importers and gangsters and yet somehow a bunch of people are convinced the shortages are being caused by HOARDING and saboteurs in private industry stealing all the flour. To the extent that smuggling consumer goods back out of Venezuela contributes to the problem the primary culprits are most likely in the military and PSUV, because they are the ones who control the distribution, they are the ones with the access and opportunity to engage in smuggling. this isn't what i was saying at all. the figures in that ap story also fit with the story that telesur is telling of profiteers using their cartel power on imports to jack up prices (telesur just obviously leaves out the inconvient bits about the government taking bribes). 12% of the exorbitant profits on food go to government officials, yet they recieve 100% of the blame from the ap for the profiteering. that article is like if some us opiate executive was interviewed and said that the united states government was to blame for all of the deaths that his product caused because they recieved tax income from his drug sales. even that little exchange with Torres could be taken out of context. if the full context was something like: quote:["Where is the corn we ordered?"]
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Feb 5, 2019 06:18
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GoluboiOgon posted:this isn't what i was saying at all. the figures in that ap story also fit with the story that telesur is telling of profiteers using their cartel power on imports to jack up prices (telesur just obviously leaves out the inconvient bits about the government taking bribes). 12% of the exorbitant profits on food go to government officials, yet they recieve 100% of the blame from the ap for the profiteering. that article is like if some us opiate executive was interviewed and said that the united states government was to blame for all of the deaths that his product caused because they recieved tax income from his drug sales. Well I'm not sure I've seen evidence these importers have the cartel power to jack up prices independently. They get that power through their relationships with the state officials taking their bribes. More fundamentally, I have literal interest in assigning personal blame for systemic problems or engaging in trivial moralizing. Venezuelan state officials take bribes because they have no oversight and its easy money. Private businesses that do dealings with them pay the bribes because they get fat kickbacks and they need extra incentive for engaging a market with no rule of law to mitigate risk from arbitrary breach of contract or expropriation. What point is there in quantifying the share of blame and parceling it among actors? The whole edifice is rotten from the foundations to the crenelations. Profiteering and rent seeking is just how the system works. If you want it to work otherwise, you have to build a better system. As it functions today the Venezuelan government and economy is riddled with bad incentives. Because those problems have been ignored for 20 years or even intentionally exaggerated, reversing the decay of Venezuelan institutions is now a herculean task.
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Feb 5, 2019 07:08
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Bob le Moche posted:Everything that comes from my nation's state media and corporate and capitalist-owned media is objective and unbiased, everything that comes from the bad scary foreign media channels is fake news and should be immediately dismissed no matter the content. I am very smart and a critical thinker and not at all an ideal docile subject of my national ruling class. This post brought to you by venezuelaanaylsis.com ! copyright 2019.
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Feb 5, 2019 13:58
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Let us remember that venezuela was never socialist to begin with therefore it cannot be used to as an example of a failed socialist. I dunno anytime you end up with a country with mass government corruption, a failed industry and a fat dictator, aren't you by law a socialist state? Has there been a socialist state yet that didn't end up like that?
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Feb 5, 2019 14:00
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Have there even been many socialist states? Or any?
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Feb 5, 2019 14:03
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Lambert posted:Have there even been many socialist states? Or any? There was Revolutionary Catalonia, but Franco had to ruin that by being a fascist.
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Feb 5, 2019 14:09
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Let us remember that venezuela was never socialist to begin with therefore it cannot be used to as an example of a failed socialist. Those who disagree with you is like saying Democracy does not work because the Democratic Republic of Korea is a failed state.
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Feb 5, 2019 14:34
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Lambert posted:Have there even been many socialist states? Or any? Cuba? Vietnam? Korea? USSR? China? Or is this a 'no true scotsman' thing whooshing over my head?
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Feb 5, 2019 15:06
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Lambert posted:Have there even been many socialist states? Or any? 
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Feb 5, 2019 15:13
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zapplez posted:Cuba? Vietnam? Korea? USSR? China? Given that there are a variety of good definitions, most of which involve the workers owning their means of production and gaining the full benefit from their work, then no there hasn't been. One big issue is that after the overthrow of the previous regime you always seem to have a set of people who are very happy to step up and say they know what the Will of the People is and that they will be the instrument of that will. Of course that always leads to authoritarian shitshows. [edit] Random aside, libertarians and right wingers whinge about taxes which are levied for the social good, left wingers are upset about dividends etc which are extracted for private gain and power accumulation. Munin fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 15:32
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“How does this situation reaffirm my previously held beliefs about socialism” is a weird focus given everything else going on.
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Feb 5, 2019 15:39
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zapplez posted:Cuba? Vietnam? Korea? USSR? China? Vietnam's honestly doing pretty well for itself all things considered, though I'm not sure how communist they still are.
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Feb 5, 2019 15:39
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They've been slowly following china's footsteps on the whole communism deal AFAIK
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Feb 5, 2019 15:52
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Every socialist country either gets a CIA-backed fascist coup or manages to find a way of dealing with being under a constant state of imperialist siege while the first world privileged "leftists" jerk off about how it's not "real socialism" because real socialism would let itself be destroyed on principle, and by surviving those societies make them look bad in front of their middle class liberal friends.WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:You should educate yourself on the actual situation in venezuela instead of virtue signalling russian state propaganda It doesn't make you look smart or informed at all to be this loyal to US foreign policy that you find any excuse to reject any information that threatens your beliefs just because a foreign channel is relaying it and start screaming "fake news" like a Trump follower. It just makes you look like someone who's fully internalized your nation's propaganda.
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Feb 5, 2019 16:18
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Bob le Moche posted:Every socialist country either gets a CIA-backed fascist coup or manages to find a way of dealing with being under a constant state of imperialist siege while the first world privileged "leftists" jerk off about how it's not "real socialism" because real socialism would let itself be destroyed on principle, and by surviving those societies make them look bad in front of their middle class liberal friends. So you're saying we can't have real socialism unless it's a global effort due to imperialist capital backed forces easily stomping it out otherwise? Like, some sort of international movement?? Because I agree.
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Feb 5, 2019 16:23
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Truga posted:So you're saying we can't have real socialism unless it's a global effort due to imperialist capital backed forces easily stomping it out otherwise? Like, some sort of international movement?? What happens when capitalist crisis gets so bad in a third world country that they have a revolution but Germans, Americans, etc drop the ball and don't follow? Is that country supposed to go "welp, we're too early, let's just roll over and take the fascism", or are they allowed to try to find another solution? I agree about the need for internationalism but if you want to ascribe responsibility the onus is on first-worlders and leftists in imperialist countries here, you can't shift the blame to workers in the third world.
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Feb 5, 2019 16:27
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Bob le Moche posted:you can't shift the blame to workers in the third world. If you are fat as hell in the middle of a famine you're probably being a capitalist.
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Feb 5, 2019 16:30
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Bob le Moche posted:What happens when capitalist crisis gets so bad in a third world country that they have a revolution but Germans, Americans, etc drop the ball and don't follow? Rent-A-Cop posted:If you are fat as hell in the middle of a famine you're probably being a capitalist.
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Feb 5, 2019 16:34
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Truga posted:fascism
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Feb 5, 2019 16:39
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Yeah, I agree, but what are you going to do about it? And why are you posting this in the venezuela thread, where everyone even mildly educated already knows this? e: Also I'm sorry for posting a john bolton video from a russian source, I'll be more careful in the future and post a CNN video where he says the same things. Truga fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 16:44
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Squalid posted:Well I'm not sure I've seen evidence these importers have the cartel power to jack up prices independently. They get that power through their relationships with the state officials taking their bribes. if government corruption was really the driving force behind price inflation of food in venezuela, why would thieving government officials only take 12% of the proceeds? you are forced to assume that the same officials who are heartlessly stealing food from the mouths of the poor then donate 90% of their ill-gotten gains to importers for some reason. it would be more logical to assume that the originator of this graft is the party that benefits the most from the arrangement, the food importers in this case. blaming the whole of society for problems that massively benefit one party is just covering for the people profiteering on food staples. If you are banking on us intervention curtailing rent seeking and profiteering, i suggest you take a good look at what business conditions are like in both the us, and countries in which the us has intervened recently. rent seeking and profiteering is the essence of capitalism, removing maduro to put guaido in his place will only make things worse.
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Feb 5, 2019 17:20
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zapplez posted:Cuba? Vietnam? Korea? USSR? China? It's funny, but compare these nations to similar free market ones and the planned economy states start to look pretty good. Why is China so much more successful than India? Similar geography/population and history of colonialism. Why is Cuba so much more successful than the Dominica nations? Both are similar sized island nations in the Caribbean Ditto Vietnam and Bangladesh, both are strongly comparable in both geography and population. I suppose if you wanted to be fair you could compare Vietnam to Thailand, but Vietnam still holds its own considering the whole 7 million tons of explosives that got dropped on it 50 years ago
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Feb 5, 2019 17:43
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I think Vietnam had the world's fastest growing economy for a few years running and is still chugging along.
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Feb 5, 2019 17:52
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NYT has a kind of good / simple opinion piece about the current crisis in Venezuela: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/05/opinion/venezuela-guaido-trump-united-states.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage I'm not sure I share his optimism that more dialogue with the PSUV/Maduro would lead to anything whatsoever, though. But, I also don't really see how this crisis ends, it might just keep on going for decades like Zimbabwe when eventually Maduro steps down in favor of Cabello.
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Feb 5, 2019 18:14
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Truga posted:Yeah, I agree, but what are you going to do about it? And why are you posting this in the venezuela thread, where everyone even mildly educated already knows this? The constant throughline across this thread full of contradictory posts is unconditional support for US foreign policy, and attacking anti-imperialists who try to criticize it. Nobody here seems to care about their disagreements with each other, as long as they all agree on these two points. It's perfect unity in supporting imperialism, no matter how twisted the reasons or ridiculous the rationale. As north American leftists our primary responsibility should be opposing our own governments' imperialist foreign policy. This is a Venezuela thread on an English-language American-based forum where some posters are calling for intervention and uncritically reproducing the propaganda justifying it. That's why I'm interested in posting here. Bob le Moche posted:The only thing that can prevent US intervention, or intervention from any other imperialist government, is pressure from the citizens of these governments against their own rulers' foreign policy. With regards to the Venezuela situation this should be the top priority of any North American who actually gives a poo poo, because it's not up to them to cast judgment on how Venezuelans are running their country.
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Feb 5, 2019 18:15
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A Typical Goon posted:It's funny, but compare these nations to similar free market ones and the planned economy states start to look pretty good. Why is China so much more successful than India? Similar geography/population and history of colonialism. Cuba was far and away the wealthiest Caribbean nation before Castro took over. It depended heavily on foreign aid from the USSR up until 1992, at which point it ran into heavy economic problems only alleviated by diminishing the state's control over the economy. India's economy was also heavily centralized/regulated for most of its history. In fact China started to embrace free market policies decades before India. Vietnam also, started to move away from a planned economy in the 1980s. And most observers of Vietnam see the parts of its economy that are still centrally planned (mainly aggriculture) as large impediments to its continued growth. edit: Also the DR's economy is growing, but is running into a big issue. Excessive government restrictions on labor result in most people employed in the country being employed off the books. Which carries with it a lot of bad implications. Were these restrictions to not exist, the country would be in much better shape. DoctorStrangelove fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 18:34
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DoctorStrangelove posted:Cuba was far and away the wealthiest Caribbean nation before Castro took over. It depended heavily on foreign aid from the USSR up until 1992, at which point it ran into heavy economic problems only alleviated by diminishing the state's control over the economy. as we can see, from places where labor deregulation advocates like Elliot Abrams worked their magic in Central America thank god we're gearing up to bring the Guatemalan Miracle to the good people of Venezuela! all construction equipment for Inconvenient Population Deescalation sponsored by Home Depot!
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Feb 5, 2019 18:49
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Bob le Moche posted:Everyone in this thread absolutely definitely does not already agree with this, come on. I was responding to the discussion in the preview few posts. Almost all the posters in this thread DO NOT support US foreign policy. You can agree with that and also agree that Maduro needs to go.
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Feb 5, 2019 20:00
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:as we can see, from places where labor deregulation advocates like Elliot Abrams worked their magic in Central America None of this post even attempts to disprove what he said.
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Feb 5, 2019 21:10
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-04/guaido-s-u-s-envoy-vows-to-open-oil-sector-restructure-debts Guaido's U.S. Envoy Vows to Open Oil Deals, Restructure Debt quote:Venezuela’s government-in-waiting intends to scrap requirements that state-owned oil giant PDVSA keep a controlling stake in joint ventures as it seeks to revive the oil sector and encourage private investment, National Assembly leader Juan Guaido’s representative to the U.S. said.
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Feb 5, 2019 21:14
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DoctorStrangelove posted:Cuba was far and away the wealthiest Caribbean nation before Castro took over. It depended heavily on foreign aid from the USSR up until 1992, at which point it ran into heavy economic problems only alleviated by diminishing the state's control over the economy. Many US allies "rely" on our foreign aid in the form of trade/subsidies/etc or just straight aid. We blank check 10% of Israel's military budget last I was aware. Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the USA which imo cuts through a lot of rhetoric. Your babies are more likely to die in the USA than in Cuba, which for all reforms still retains a lot of control over the economy and funds socialized programs. DoctorStrangelove posted:India's economy was also heavily centralized/regulated for most of its history. In fact China started to embrace free market policies decades before India. Whether China today is particularly communist is a prickly argument but it's pretty disingenuous to pretend like they're just capitalists like everyone else and always have been. Even today they are heavily focused on lifting people out of poverty and creating a sustainable service economy in their urban centers via an agreed upon strategy they are working to carry out which is more than anyone can say about the USA or other free market countries. The governments over here seem more concerned with "let's help the rich loot everything." And it's not like India's transition away to more free market has been rosy: quote:There has been significant debate, however, around liberalisation as an inclusive economic growth strategy. Income inequality has deepened in India since 1992, with consumption among the poorest staying stable while the wealthiest generate consumption growth.[9] India's gross domestic product (GDP) growth rate in 2012–13 was the lowest for a decade, at just 5.1%,[10] at which time more criticism of India's economic reforms surfaced; it apparently failed to address employment growth, nutritional values in terms of food intake in calories, and also export growth—and thereby was leading to a worsening current account deficit compared to the period prior to reform.[11] The country continues to perform poorly in all developmental aspects, with high unemployment among the youth, poor women's security, rampant corruption, the highest number of malnourished children and poor sanitation.[12] So... not quite a black and white picture is it. DoctorStrangelove posted:Vietnam also, started to move away from a planned economy in the 1980s. And most observers of Vietnam see the parts of its economy that are still centrally planned (mainly aggriculture) as large impediments to its continued growth. The back half of the 80s, for what it's worth. Nonetheless, they still have extremely strong social programs etc that the USA would call socialist as hell considering they were bleating so hard about Obama's ACA. And "moved away from" only after seizing poo poo tons of land to redistribute. quote:Deep poverty which defined as the percentage of the population living on less than $1 per day has declined significantly in Vietnam and the relative poverty rate is now less than that of China, India and the Philippines.[262] This decline in the poverty rate can be attributed to equitable economic policies aimed at improving living standards and preventing the rise of inequality;[263] these policies have included egalitarian land distribution during the initial stages of the Đổi Mới program, investment in poorer remote areas, and subsidising of education and healthcare.[264][265] So it wasn't the free market reforms so much as the economic policies directly aimed at helping poor people. The sheer notion of seizing land in the USA to give to poor people living on it is... well. Not even up for mentioning anywhere that matters. Maybe in the form of reparations which is usually the domain of the "lunatic fringe." idk about DR There is some misconception by the way that socialists CANNOT have any kind of free market ANYTHING. That's just wrong. Saying "aha but Vietnam has done some reforms to have some free enterprise" isn't a gotcha. Even Lenin had his NEP - does that mean the USSR wasn't a communist country? Vietnam isn't suddenly not a Marxist-Leninist one party state because they do some free market stuff. It's just that capitalists don't want to admit that the fastest growing economies today are under the management of Marxist-Leninists. That doesn't fit the narrative. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 21:26
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So, idk. We can talk about whether privatization that the USA will bring is ultimately good for Venezuela. We can talk about Cuba, India, China, etc. all day but I don't think it's ever an apples to apples comparison. Venezeula in 2019 isn't China in the 30s at war with Chiang Kai-Shek. It's also not India with an extreme history of racial caste system and a billion people with hundreds (at least) of disparate cultures in a relatively tiny area with no water. However we should all be clear that the USA will privatize public assets and say "now the free market will fix this mess" and call it a day. That's what the people in charge legitimately believe is doing the right thing. You should know this if you pay any attention at all to history both with regards to US foreign policy and the rise of the religious right Friedman / Ayn Rand worshippers in the domestic US. Aside from all that if Venezuela wants IMF loans they will have to privatize public assets because that is a basic condition of IMF loans in black and white language. It's simple. I don't get what confusion there can even be. Google it yourselves, they will tell you because again they legitimately believe that it is good to do. https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/nft/op/194/ posted:Among the international financial institutions, the World Bank has had the lead role in advising on the design and implementation of the reform of public enterprises, including divestiture. Privatization, however, has important fiscal and macroeconomic implications and is therefore also of interest to the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Indeed, privatization has become an important component of programs in a large number of countries. Chose that quote because ditto the World Bank. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 21:46
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