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zapplez posted:Almost all the posters in this thread DO NOT support US foreign policy. Supporting Guaido is supporting US foreign policy, as his coup was started on the command of US Vice President Mike Pence and backed by western economic sanctions and theft of assets.
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Feb 5, 2019 21:52
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GoluboiOgon posted:if government corruption was really the driving force behind price inflation of food in venezuela, why would thieving government officials only take 12% of the proceeds? you are forced to assume that the same officials who are heartlessly stealing food from the mouths of the poor then donate 90% of their ill-gotten gains to importers for some reason. it would be more logical to assume that the originator of this graft is the party that benefits the most from the arrangement, the food importers in this case. blaming the whole of society for problems that massively benefit one party is just covering for the people profiteering on food staples. I don't think I ever said corruption was the driving force behind price inflation. If that was implied in any statement I made it was a mistake. Instead shortages and price inflation were primarily driven by 1) declining oil revenues 2) increasing debt burdens consuming larger shares of state revenue 3) restrictions on access to foreign credit in the last two years 4) Awful industrial and agricultural policy which has destroyed Venezuelan capacity for local production. Corruption is also obviously a problem as illustrated in this example, but I don't know if the effect is larger than these other forces. The currency controls are also clearly messed up, but I don't feel comfortable saying anything about it off the cuff as it is complicated and I don't feel I understand it. The answer to your question probably hinges on specific circumstances known only to those directly involved in the transaction. The question of who the "originator" of the graft is of no interest to me. As is who claimed a larger proportion of the spoils. I don't blame all of society for these problems, but Venezuela has several blatant and obvious issues that have created a situation where graft can flourish. Some issues include the loss of independence within the Venezuelan judiciary, which has left it to subject to whims of the executive branch, and a culture of criminal impunity within the executive. I'm sure others could come up with more reasons. I make no predictions regarding what other potential leaders might do if they led Venezuela. Certainly nobody is going to be able wave a magic wand and make corruption disappear. There are many obvious things that could be done to improve the situation however, if anybody cared to implement them.
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Feb 5, 2019 21:56
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Moridin920 posted:The back half of the 80s, for what it's worth. Nonetheless, they still have extremely strong social programs etc that the USA would call socialist as hell considering they were bleating so hard about Obama's ACA. And "moved away from" only after seizing poo poo tons of land to redistribute. A firm I used to work for had several plants in Vietnam as well as in the United States. The Vietnamese plants had far higher rates of worker accidents, worse working conditions, and much longer work hours than the US plants. As far as I know, we had no compensation for worker injuries the way we did in the US. The US workers were far better off than the Vietnamese ones. Take of this what you will but one of the issues with smaller socialist countries embracing free market reforms is the issue of regulatory capture. So Vietnam may have strong worker protection laws on the book but these are not enforced thanks to nearly total regulatory capture (whereas OSHA does enforce our worker protection laws.) The end result of this is that, in practice, many Vietnamese labor under Dickensian factory conditions. In any case, these are not applicable to Venezuela. Venezuela has had relatively strong worker protection laws even before Chavez came to power and many of these were updated during the Chavez years in ways I think we all agree are fair to workers. The issue is that when the state collapses, these are not enforced, so I would posit that stable institutions, government transparency and rule of law are necessary to make worker protections actually effective (especially for vulnerable populations such as the poor and minorities,) as opposed to just pretty words on a piece of paper.
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Feb 5, 2019 21:59
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Can somebody please link me some sources to better explain the state of the Venezuelan economy and how it got there, especially in relation to Sanctions?
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Feb 5, 2019 22:17
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Well people are making GBS threads themselves in diapers in US Amazon centers so let's not get too ahead of ourselves painting a rosy picture of the USA. I'd have to dig around for some concrete numbers. I'm sure Vietnam has it's share of bad poo poo though. They do have 30 days paid sick leave at a minimum which is about 30 more than most jobs in the USA ever gave me. They were also getting napalmed to dust not so long ago. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 5, 2019 22:24
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khwarezm posted:Can somebody please link me some sources to better explain the state of the Venezuelan economy and how it got there, especially in relation to Sanctions? the only current US sanction that predates 2017 is a 2015 one on individual kleptocrats
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Feb 5, 2019 22:28
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GreyjoyBastard posted:the only current US sanction that predates 2017 is a 2015 one on individual kleptocrats I'm specifically asking for sources here, especially on sanctions new and old.
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Feb 5, 2019 22:29
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khwarezm posted:Can somebody please link me some sources to better explain the state of the Venezuelan economy and how it got there, especially in relation to Sanctions? I recommend starting with posts by the OP, who does a great job citing sources and setting up historical context. Phoneposting, but here is a direct link to sanctions at State. https://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/venezuela/index.htm It’s worth generally noting that the US is the only place Venezuela has been able to feasibly refine its oil, and the US has no real financial incentives at this point to “get” oil. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 22:29
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Yeah, Chuck boone's op is what you wanna read.
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Feb 5, 2019 22:35
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Moridin920 posted:Well people are making GBS threads themselves in diapers in US Amazon centers so let's not get too ahead of ourselves painting a rosy picture of the USA. I'm not aware of the Vietnam plant giving anyone paid sick leave. From my job analysis there, any job absences generally resulted in immediate termination in the Vietnam plant. The firm had been operating over 10 years in Vietnam and had not been issued a single citation or fine by the Vietnamese government. OTOH OSHA issued several fines to the US plants in that timeframe. One explanation that was given to me as to why the Vietnamese government did no interfere was that the Vietnamese plants were all built on land concessions granted to this American corporation and they operated as "free trade zones." Management was extremely unconcerned with any kind of oversight from the government and they considered it a non-factor for the Vietnamese plant jobs. This is contrast to the US plant jobs where emergency measure were implemented to get the plants back within OSHA regulations to stop fines from accumulating. Honestly, many of the concerns in the Amazon warehouses are things that are not even considered in Vietnam. For example, one complaint is that Amazon warehouses don't have A/C. None of the Vietnam plants had A/C, and we're talking about a closed environment with heavy machinery operating in a tropical climate, needless to say, they were sweltering hot. The problem is regulatory capture, when a state is small and has weak institutions, regulatory capture even by smaller American corporations is an issue. This makes whatever laws and regulations that country has effectively moot, no matter how socialist and well-intentioned they may be. e: there's a reason that so many corporations are moving factory jobs to Vietnam and China, and it's not because of these countries strong worker protection laws and tract record of protecting them. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 5, 2019 22:38
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elgatofilo posted:The problem is regulatory capture, when a state is small and has weak institutions, regulatory capture even by smaller American corporations is an issue. This makes whatever laws and regulations that country has effectively moot, no matter how socialist and well-intentioned they may be. Yeah that's true elgatofilo posted:e: there's a reason that so many corporations are moving factory jobs to Vietnam and China, and it's not because of these countries strong worker protection laws and tract record of protecting them. Yeah obviously, but it's more reasonable to compare Vietnam working conditions today to working conditions in the US' early 1800s era I think. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 22:41
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elgatofilo posted:I'm not aware of the Vietnam plant giving anyone paid sick leave. From my job analysis there, any job absences generally resulted in immediate termination in the Vietnam plant. The firm had been operating over 10 years in Vietnam and had not been issued a single citation or fine by the Vietnamese government. OTOH OSHA issued several fines to the US plants in that timeframe. One explanation that was given to me as to why the Vietnamese government did no interfere was that the Vietnamese plants were all built on land concessions granted to this American corporation and they operated as "free trade zones." Management was extremely unconcerned with any kind of oversight from the government and they considered it a non-factor for the Vietnamese plant jobs. This is contrast to the US plant jobs where emergency measure were implemented to get the plants back within OSHA regulations to stop fines from accumulating. Comparing Vietnam to the richest county that has ever existed is a really stupid idea, there is a reason the original comparisons were to Bangladesh and Thailand I realize this is completely off topic so this is my last post about it, apologies for bringing it up
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Feb 5, 2019 22:50
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uninterrupted posted:Supporting Guaido is supporting US foreign policy, as his coup was started on the command of US Vice President Mike Pence and backed by western economic sanctions and theft of assets. The vice president does not have the power to do any of these things.
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Feb 6, 2019 01:32
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:The vice president does not have the power to do any of these things. i don't think any of them care
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Feb 6, 2019 01:33
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uninterrupted posted:Supporting Guaido is supporting US foreign policy, as his coup was started on the command of US Vice President Mike Pence and backed by western economic sanctions and theft of assets. I'm not Venezuelan, but something I've found kinda insulting and dismissive in this thread from a few posters is the unquestioned assertion that Guaidó is a US puppet, acting entirely on the instructions of Mike Pence and John Bolton. Is it not possible that Guaidó and other opposition members are the ones who went to the US and other Latin American countries for assistance, knowing that his declaration would have absolutely zero effect without robust international recognition and support? Describing Guaidó as a puppet and nothing more just seems like an easy way to dismiss the opposition entirely, as opposed to taking the time to truly evaluate the political situation as it stands.
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Feb 6, 2019 01:59
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I'm not Venezuelan, but something I've found kinda insulting and dismissive in this thread from a few posters is the unquestioned assertion that Guaidó is a US puppet, acting entirely on the instructions of Mike Pence and John Bolton. Is it not possible that Guaidó and other opposition members are the ones who went to the US and other Latin American countries for assistance, knowing that his declaration would have absolutely zero effect without robust international recognition and support? Describing Guaidó as a puppet and nothing more just seems like an easy way to dismiss the opposition entirely, as opposed to taking the time to truly evaluate the political situation as it stands. Yeah its something else. Especially once you add the fact that he has a fairly reasonable constitutional claim to his legitimacy.
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Feb 6, 2019 02:06
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I'm not Venezuelan, but something I've found kinda insulting and dismissive in this thread from a few posters is the unquestioned assertion that Guaidó is a US puppet, acting entirely on the instructions of Mike Pence and John Bolton. Is it not possible that Guaidó and other opposition members are the ones who went to the US and other Latin American countries for assistance, knowing that his declaration would have absolutely zero effect without robust international recognition and support? Describing Guaidó as a puppet and nothing more just seems like an easy way to dismiss the opposition entirely, as opposed to taking the time to truly evaluate the political situation as it stands. This is an old CIA talking point that tries to use the language of leftists to white-wash the constant US interference with South American countries. Here's the exact same argument, about Chile, from a CIA propaganda artist. https://twitter.com/cuttlefish_btc/status/889614196282978304 Every single time the US has interfered in Latin America it's been to their detriment, you need to be blindingly uninformed to think the guy who facilitated genocide in Guatemala, Mike Pence, and fuckin Trump have good or even neutral intentions. That's why the vast majority of Venezuelans don't support Guaido and the West is forcing him on the country by stealing their foreign assets.
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Feb 6, 2019 03:13
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uninterrupted posted:That's why the vast majority of Venezuelans don't support Guaido and the West is forcing him on the country by stealing their foreign assets. Who keeps telling these people this?
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Feb 6, 2019 03:24
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You guys who bring up Allende so much but you always forget that his policies, which were nearly identical to that of the PSUV, ended up having a nearly identical impact on Chile's economy to those of the PSUV. Pinochet didn't come out of a vacuum, if a fascist does take control of Venezuela it's ultimately the fault of the PSUV for creating the circumstances that would allow it to happen.
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Feb 6, 2019 03:26
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Giggle Goose posted:reasonable constitutional claim to his legitimacy. lol The 'constitutional argument' is that Guaido gets to declare himself because the presidency was abandoned because the election was fraudulent. a. Saying the president was abandoned because there was election fraud is a huge leap in and of itself. b. The supreme court already said this is an invalid reading of the constitution. and despite all the pro-US expats saying the justices are all Maduro appointees, that doesn't make them not-Supreme court justices c. The claims of election fraud are shaky at best. Because the opposition knew they would lose, most of them boycotted the election, ensuring their loss no matter what. They also explicitly asked election observers not to come so they could say the election was rigged. The observers that did go didn't observe any huge irregularity. Past that, how can you simultaneously not participate in an election and claim it was fraudulent? A simple reading of this was that the opposition was never going to accept an election loss. They kept the election observers away and boycotted the elections so no matter how badly they lost, no one would see how little support they had. This way, they could keep lobbying the US and other western powers to install them as heads of the government without elections.
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Feb 6, 2019 03:26
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khwarezm posted:Can somebody please link me some sources to better explain the state of the Venezuelan economy and how it got there, especially in relation to Sanctions? I was looking at some stuff recently and this paper goes into a lot of detail up to 2014, although its pretty boring and dense. I'm just kind of skimming it occasionally in little bursts: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/ces.2015.13#Fn16_source
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Feb 6, 2019 03:36
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Maduro gave an interview to RT that aired today. At one point Maduro suggested that it is not true that millions of Venezuelans have left the country due to the collapse of the country, and that instead the country is actually seeing "important" levels of migration. He said:quote:We have very power internal figures. For example, the number of children in school for 2018-2019 jumped 7%. Electrical consumption jumped 6%. The number of workers working jumped 7%. These are concrete numbers. Gas consumption jumped tremendously, 12%… so, if there three or five million people had left, we would have ghost cities… now, for the first time, we’re due to economic reasons, we’re seeing an important [level of] migration Even if the figures that Maduro cited are true (and there's no reason to believe that they are), none of them alone or even taken together would make a strong argument for an increase in population. Acebuckeye13 posted:I'm not Venezuelan, but something I've found kinda insulting and dismissive in this thread from a few posters is the unquestioned assertion that Guaidó is a US puppet, acting entirely on the instructions of Mike Pence and John Bolton. Is it not possible that Guaidó and other opposition members are the ones who went to the US and other Latin American countries for assistance, knowing that his declaration would have absolutely zero effect without robust international recognition and support? Describing Guaidó as a puppet and nothing more just seems like an easy way to dismiss the opposition entirely, as opposed to taking the time to truly evaluate the political situation as it stands. I'll never get over this. This stance denies decades of on-the-ground struggle and organization from activists, politicians and ordinary Venezuelans. I can't even guess how many people have died or given up years of their lives in prison to get to where we are today. Waving a magic wand in the air and saying "no, this is a USA coup" is It's infantilizing, arrogant and just plain ignorant.
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Feb 6, 2019 03:40
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uninterrupted posted:This is an old CIA talking point that tries to use the language of leftists to white-wash the constant US interference with South American countries. Here's the exact same argument, about Chile, from a CIA propaganda artist. The problem with this talking point is that it is paternalistic to ascribe agency to only white people and white actors. The CIA uses it precisely because of this (even if they're just using it to concern troll.) The other issue is that there's literally no reason for the left to continue using this argument to advance policy discussion. Every time the left uses arguments like these they shut out Latinos and Hispanics by essentially outright insulting them and labeling them as puppets. For most Latinos; white people claiming that your Republican aunt Juana is a puppet of the imperialist CIA is offensive. Labeling Latinos as puppets is both unnecessary for advancing leftist causes and in fact actively undermines them by shutting Latinos out of organizations and groups they would have otherwise supported. Here are some good anti-intervention & anti-imperialist leftist articles I read from Gabriel Hetland on Jacobin and Alejandro Velasco on NYT recently. I consider both of their opinions to be wrong on many counts but I like the fact that not once did they proceed to label any Latino person a puppet. I feel that their arguments stand on their own and don't require any paternalistic racism to make their point: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/05/opinion/venezuela-guaido-trump-united-states.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytopinion https://jacobinmag.com/2019/02/venezuela-noninterventionism-self-determination-solidarity
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Feb 6, 2019 03:42
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uninterrupted posted:The claims of election fraud are shaky at best. god you are such a turd What's frustrating about this thread is I or others can post ten goddamn pages about the political situation in the country, the root causes, and how the country has slowly grown more and more authoritarian under the rule of Chavez and Maduro, but it doesn't matter because posters like you just stroll in and start lecturing us like you know anything more than some bullshit you read on twitter
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Feb 6, 2019 03:42
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uninterrupted posted:lol
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Feb 6, 2019 03:43
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Do your lies make you feel better about supporting a dictator whos starving his people Does yelling at me make you feel better about cheerleading the US turning Venezuela into the next Libya?
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Feb 6, 2019 03:45
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elgatofilo posted:The problem with this talking point is that it is paternalistic to ascribe agency to only white people and white actors. The CIA uses it precisely because of this (even if they're just using it to concern troll.) Wait aren't you the same guy who said there's no racism in south america, and because they're not white anglo saxon protestants it's all 'colorism'?
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Feb 6, 2019 03:47
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uninterrupted posted:Does yelling at me make you feel better about cheerleading the US turning Venezuela into the next Libya? Maduro already did it and your still supporting him starving his people. So what does that say about you? WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 03:48
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Maduro already did it and your still supporting him starving his people. You know who's gonna fix this? The US! https://twitter.com/cuttlefish_btc/status/889681807909769216
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Feb 6, 2019 03:50
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uninterrupted posted:You know who's gonna fix this? The US! Do you plan to acknowledge the fact that you are supporting a dictator starving his people
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Feb 6, 2019 03:51
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Do you plan to acknowledge the fact that you are supporting a dictator starving his people "If you don't support the invasion you're on the side of the Taliban!" "If you don't support the invasion you're on the side of Saddam Hussein!" "If you don't support the invasion you're on the side of Gaddafi!" "If you don't support the invasion you're somehow both on the side of Assad AND ISIS!" Maduro is a better choice than a US installed puppet government, who's declared leader announced himself president after being told to on a phone call by Mike Pence, and who's only clear policies are a. oil industry privatization b. cutting food aid, and c. cutting public housing. This has been true about every US intervention, despite how many bitter expats want Venezuela to burn for taking their family ranches/stores/golf courses.
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Feb 6, 2019 03:55
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Do you plan to acknowledge the fact that you are supporting a dictator starving his people He does not, but i'm still interested in the division of respectability and where they cycle the disinformation among themselves. Does Venezuela state media suffice?
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Feb 6, 2019 03:57
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uninterrupted posted:Wait aren't you the same guy who said there's no racism in south america, and because they're not white anglo saxon protestants it's all 'colorism'? My argument has always been the same. I'm not sure what your point is: Colorism is a well documented phenomena in Latin America with a lot of social science research backing it up (I've previously recommended Eduardo Bonilla-Silva's "Racism without Racists.") Racism towards Latinos and Latin-Americans is also a well documented phenomena in the United States which is where these arguments are orginating from and what I'm talking about. White Americans would do well to avoid insulting Latinos and Latin Americans if they want to advance leftist causes. Gabriel Hetland and Alejandro Velasco demonstrate it is perfectly possible to do this without paternalistic racism.
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Feb 6, 2019 03:59
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uninterrupted posted:"If you don't support the invasion you're on the side of the Taliban!" The opposition is, right now, attempting to organize humanitarian and food aid to help the people that have been starved by Maduro's government, you loving shithead.
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Feb 6, 2019 04:00
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elgatofilo posted:My argument has always been the same. I'm not sure what your point is: Colorism is a well documented phenomena in Latin America with a lot of social science research backing it up (I've previously recommended Eduardo Bonilla-Silva's "Racism without Racists.") elgatofilo posted:Having lived in Latin America, I sometimes joke with people that I was white but ever since I came back people tell me I'm "ethnic" and "diverse" so I guess I'm un negro now. Seems like the more obvious difference is that it's just 'colorism' when you're seen as white and 'racism' when you're a negro.
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Feb 6, 2019 04:01
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Do you plan to acknowledge the fact that you are supporting a dictator starving his people Do you plan to acknowledge the fact that you are cheering for an intervention from a country that has killed tens of millions with similar interventions
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Feb 6, 2019 04:04
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elgatofilo posted:My argument has always been the same. I'm not sure what your point is: Colorism is a well documented phenomena in Latin America with a lot of social science research backing it up (I've previously recommended Eduardo Bonilla-Silva's "Racism without Racists.") racist: calling people who literally have recieved billions of dollars of stolen assets from the us and uk foreign assets not racist: supporting the regime change efforts of a man who organized right-wing death squads to kill latinos
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Feb 6, 2019 04:06
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Why are you citing that twitter account, of all the possible sources of authority on foreign policy in the world Why are you citing Crypto Cuttlefish
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Feb 6, 2019 04:09
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uninterrupted posted:Seems like the more obvious difference is that it's just 'colorism' when you're seen as white and 'racism' when you're a negro. I think that's exactly my point - that's the joke. Americans see racialized ethnic groups divided across strong socioeconomic/genetic lines whereas colorism is more about appearance. Being "un negro" means many things to Venezuelans so I see why it went over your head. My family often call me "el negro" because I'm darker than my brother who has lighter hair and skin. This doesn't mean I'm literally a different race than my brother. The joke is that Americans turn phenotypic differences between people into genetic race whereas Venezuelans tend to use it descriptively because mixed race families often have members who may be darker and some that are lighter.
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Feb 6, 2019 04:10
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Discendo Vox posted:Why are you citing that twitter account, of all the possible sources of authority on foreign policy in the world It's... a screenshot of a newspaper? Do you think it's fake? What's your argument here dude?
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Feb 6, 2019 04:13
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