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A Typical Goon posted:Ok so what? Is American going to attempt regime change in every dictatorship they don't like or only the ones with oil and gold? So, before we can even start correcting all the other wrong things you say, we'd like you to stop tossing off references to what Guiado is doing as a coup: A Typical Goon posted:It's an coup because it's an attempted illegal seizure of power according to the constitution of Venezuela as well as the nations Supreme Court Like, dude, the troll would be way more effective if you'd at least space out the circular argument more than three posts.
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Feb 6, 2019 08:06
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STcepwXxwWA
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Feb 6, 2019 08:08
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uninterrupted posted:c. The claims of election fraud are shaky at best. Because the opposition knew they would lose, most of them boycotted the election, ensuring their loss no matter what. People should really just be banned from reposting this garbage over and over again. It's posted every three days and has been refuted a million times. Anyone reposting these arguments is an absolutely shameless liar.
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Feb 6, 2019 08:21
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A Typical Goon posted:It's an coup because it's an attempted illegal seizure of power according to the constitution of Venezuela as well as the nations Supreme Court Constitution’s pretty clear about just who engaged in an illegal seizure of power.
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Feb 6, 2019 08:25
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Discendo Vox posted:So, before we can even start correcting all the other wrong things you say, we'd like you to stop tossing off references to what Guiado is doing as a coup: We get it dude, everyone who disagrees with you is a troll. How about addressing the actual argument instead of just posting in bad faith? Maybe you could start with how Guiado attempting to usurp the presidents position in direct contravention of Article 233 of the Venezuela constitution is not an illegal seizure of power ? Kalman posted:Constitution’s pretty clear about just who engaged in an illegal seizure of power. Agreed, it's perfectly clear quote:Article 233: The President of the Republic shall become permanently unavailable to serve by reason of any of the following events: death; resignation; removal from office by decision of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice; permanent physical or mental disability certified by a medical board designated by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice with the approval of the National Assembly; abandonment of his position, duly declared by the National Assembly; and recall by popular vote.
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Feb 6, 2019 08:26
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Didn’t read the article, did you.
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Feb 6, 2019 08:27
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Into what areas can/should Venezuela diversify its economy as it tries to grow past this castrophone?
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Feb 6, 2019 08:34
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Cool I'm sure this wouldn't turn out to be a terrible idea https://twitter.com/Dan_Beeton/stat...ingawful.com%2F
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Feb 6, 2019 08:43
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Kalman posted:Didn’t read the article, did you. Actually I did, I also read the cited sections of the constitution that the author conveniently leaves out. The ops argument is that an election was not called in accordance with article 297 of the constitution, so therefore there is no president which means Guiado takes over as president automatically as leader of the National Assembly according to article 233. This would be true, if the elections hadn't been called by the national constituent assembly. The OPs argument seems to be that the national constituent assembly was illegal because ??? Here is the argument quote:In an attempt to circumvent the National Assembly, Maduro created a parallel legislature under Articles 347 and 348. These provisions, however, were meant solely to call for a constitutional convention and required a national referendum (like the one in 1999). Knowing that a popular vote would defeat his proposal, Maduro concocted an “electoral” process that would ensure every member of that alternate assembly would be under his control. That entire process was outside of the constitutional structure and violated the procedures prescribed by Article 347 and Venezuelan law. Under any sensible reading of the constitution, there was no basis for a parallel legislature nor the process by which it was staffed. The bolded is the relevant part, but I see nothing in article 347 or 348 that backs up the authors claim? In fact the bolded section of 348 seems to contradict it? As for his conclusion at the end that I italicized, I also italicized the section of 347 that I believe contradicts his claim quote:article 347: The original constituent power rests with the people of Venezuela. This power may be exercised by calling a National Constituent Assembly for the purpose of transforming the State,creating a new juridical order and drawing up a new Constitution. It's really no surprise he didn't actually quote the articles he was discussing, they don't actually say what he claims they do. So now that we've established that the constituent assembly was established according to the constitution and that the elections were called within the mandate on the constitution, section 233 comes into effect and clearly talks about situations where the president can be removed, none of which include 'because the leader of the National Assembly feels like it' A Typical Goon fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 09:41
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It's amazing just how well Chavez played the international opinion. He was literally years ahead. All he had to do was antagonize Bush and people everywhere grew a massive boner for Chavismo and the Venezuelan government. Used to make me mad when people here that I considered smart and alike me in political views would tell me how, actually, I'm wrong and Chavez is good. What is it with you all and this black/white bullshit? Someone can oppose the US and still be loving terrible. Did you guys also support North Korea until Kim got cozy with Trump? Supporting Maduro is supporting a criminal. It's saying that starving a nation and stealing its riches for yourself is ok as long as they pay token homage to anti-imperialism. There is literally no other objective truth. He has gone on national broadcast and mocked people for starving, for gently caress's sake. I would've loving loved if the opposition had had the balls to not back down during the last, obviously rigged elections. I would've loving loved that the international community had sided with the Venezuelan people then as they're doing now and pressuring an illegitimate, oppressive and morally bankrupt state to transition back to a proper democracy and take care of their people. It wasn't so and now that Trump has made it his crusade then suddenly we do matter. So be it, then. The real irony is that all of you die hard anti interventionists are acting exactly like Trump. You don't give a single poo poo about Venezuela and obviously don't even consider them thinking and acting humans (after all, you're claiming that everything going on is simply due to US backing and not the results of years of discontent and opposition, because real Venezuelans are too dumb and poor to speak English and have access to an online forum). You just want to win an argument. If things really turn out the worse, the US does a military intervention and a full civil war breaks, you'll be happy. Because you'll be proven right. Every Venezuelan that dies in such a conflict would be a win for you because you can jump online and go SEE! I WAS RIGHT! And hell, considering the other side of the equation, Trump supporters would also love it. Trump really is the president you all deserve, he's perfect for all of you. Just imagine how much a Venezuelan genocide would fuel your Twitter fights! I hope we all die so you can own liberals/chuds for years to come!
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Feb 6, 2019 10:29
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I wish I had the confidence to read a translation of a legal document from another country and make bold pronouncements about what is and isn't legal there based on just that.
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Feb 6, 2019 10:33
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Everyone talks about maduro enriching himself can someone show me evidence of it
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Feb 6, 2019 10:34
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It was already posted. Do you have any specific objections to it or...?
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Feb 6, 2019 10:42
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Jose posted:Everyone talks about maduro enriching himself can someone show me evidence of it he's fat while everyone else starves, op. he's a lovely dictator. WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:The US doesnt need venezuelan oil. Its hard to refine and the US is a NET EXPORTER OF OIL so how is it the same? Trump is trying to reduce the straregic reserve of out and sell it because we have so loving much excess. So you just proved your lack of education on the topics that are needed to discuss the issue at hand. thanks sure, but then bolton literally on national tv said "mo oil mo better"
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Feb 6, 2019 10:45
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If only the emperor knew that every single one of his cronies were looting the realm then surely he would do something!
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Feb 6, 2019 10:47
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Pedro De Heredia posted:It was already posted. Do you have any specific objections to it or...? Yeah it wasn't posted in its original Spanish how can anyone trust anything that's been translated?!!?
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Feb 6, 2019 10:49
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Pedro De Heredia posted:It was already posted. Do you have any specific objections to it or...? He has an ideology
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Feb 6, 2019 11:13
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I missed it when it was posted and would like to read it
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Feb 6, 2019 11:14
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Jose posted:I missed it when it was posted and would like to read it If only there were some written medium you could use to store information from multiple people. If only it were possible to go back a couple pages and read the discussion instead of Kramering in without context. But yeah ok let me do it for you. Obviously click the relevant posts for full content Squalid posted:I'm not sure there's direct evidence Maduro directly embezzled money from the state, but we have evidence from a variety of sources of extensive corruption and drug trafficking under Maduro and Chavez. They were almost certainly aware of it if not always directly involved. Acebuckeye13 posted:oh come on
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Feb 6, 2019 11:18
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It seemed faster to ask than go through a 300 page thread to get some link
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Feb 6, 2019 11:22
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I'm preparing a better info dump.
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Feb 6, 2019 11:24
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A Typical Goon posted:Surprise surprise, Leomarr ducked the question again. And the Neo-Cons in this thread say the pacifists are arguing in bad faith? Haha. Calling the tankies in this thread "the pacifists" is some serious attempt at marketing. You are about as good as when people in the abortion debate started calling others "pro-abortion"
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Feb 6, 2019 11:24
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Wasn't the CLAP scandal over buying rotten food in Mexico linked to Maduro? https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/mexico-prosecutors-find-fraud-in-venezuela-food-aid-program/ https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2017/06/15/claps-is-a-giant-scam/ The "Clap Diet" that Maduro talked about.
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Feb 6, 2019 11:27
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Jose posted:It seemed faster to ask than go through a 300 page thread to get some link It was in the last 4 pages. If you’d read them you’d have a better context to present your opinions instead of: Jose posted:Everyone talks about maduro enriching himself can someone show me evidence of it Which is not an inquisitively phrased question, but a challengingly phrased one. I would also encourage reading the op in the first page and, if you can bring yourself to care, Chuck Boone’s posts who is an academic specialising in this field
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Feb 6, 2019 11:28
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Pedro De Heredia posted:I'm preparing a better info dump. Good because the links that were just posted aren't particularly convincing just that there is lots of corruption generally going on which is to be expected considering how hosed things are
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Feb 6, 2019 11:31
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it's also hard to begin an anti-corruption purge when your nation is under threat of imminent foreign intervention. not that it excuses turning a blind eye to the problem, but it is specifically the problem that has confronted all socialist projects. if you're worried about your very survival, unity in the face of the threat of invasion kinda does tend to take priority over other concerns
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Feb 6, 2019 11:37
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Jose posted:Everyone talks about maduro enriching himself can someone show me evidence of it Being obese when your citizens are losing 27 lbs a year is a bad look.
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Feb 6, 2019 11:39
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I lied; making a better info dump, as it turns out, takes a long time. You can go here and read the details of the case against Matthias Krull, a banker convicted of money laundering for a PDVSA scheme late last year. quote:In 2016 a Confidential Source (CS) approached the HSI Miami Office (HSI-Miami) regarding 78 million in Euros the CS received, which originated from a loan contract with PDVSA. The CS was involved in a money laundering conspiracy and wanted to surrender the money and cooperate. HSI-Miami thereafter began an undercover investigation: Organized Crime and Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) Operation Money Flight. It involves a bunch of people who have dealings with the government. Additional 'research' gives more context as to who these people are, but I don't want to post things I can't corroborate in any meaningful way. According to the Miami Herald, quote:While Maduro is not mentioned by name in any court records, there are references to him as “Venezuelan Official 2” and to his stepsons, according to multiple sources familiar with the probe. His stepsons — Yosser Gavidia Flores, Walter Gavidia Flores and Yoswal Gavidia Flores — though also unnamed are described by the sources as receiving an estimated $200 million in funds stolen from the nation’s national oil company, Petroleos de Venezuela, S.A., or PDVSA, that were wired to a European bank in late 2014 and early 2015.
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Feb 6, 2019 11:40
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You may be stealing tens of millions of dollars from public coffers that was destined for food shipments for our starving populace but now is the time for us to unite against a common foe, General Allgreed.
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Feb 6, 2019 11:40
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Kurnugia posted:it's also hard to begin an anti-corruption purge when your nation is under threat of imminent foreign intervention. not that it excuses turning a blind eye to the problem, but it is specifically the problem that has confronted all socialist projects. if you're worried about your very survival, unity in the face of the threat of invasion kinda does tend to take priority over other concerns Chavez was elected in 1999. Venezuela's crisis doesn't begin and end with the sudden interest from Trump.
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Feb 6, 2019 11:42
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Jose posted:Good because the links that were just posted aren't particularly convincing just that there is lots of corruption generally going on which is to be expected considering how hosed things are Sure, there is corruption in the higher positions of power, the nephews of Maduro's wife were engaged in drug trafficking but the man himself is clearly not connected to any of that  But I guess Corruption Is Woke, actually, just look the other way hot take has already been made at Jacobin so we are past that point in the discourse.
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Feb 6, 2019 11:45
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Kurnugia posted:it's also hard to begin an anti-corruption purge when your nation is under threat of imminent foreign intervention. not that it excuses turning a blind eye to the problem, but it is specifically the problem that has confronted all socialist projects. if you're worried about your very survival, unity in the face of the threat of invasion kinda does tend to take priority over other concerns Like the corruption started last week, just because that's when you first cared about Venezuela. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 11:45
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What is the name of that ideology that puts the state before the people? Fas-something. Can’t really remember how it goes. Fastism? No, not quite...
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Feb 6, 2019 11:45
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fatherboxx posted:Sure, there is corruption in the higher positions of power, the nephews of Maduro's wife were engaged in drug trafficking but the man himself is clearly not connected to any of that Conspiring to import cocaine and being incredibly loving stupid about it. Probably because they're his nephews and thought they'd definitely get away with it since he is president
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Feb 6, 2019 11:48
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OK this was taking too long, but there's a pretty long investigation into money laundering through U.S. properties that involves people connected to Maduro and the government. In December, a guy called Matthias Krull was sentenced to 10 years for his part in this scheme: quote:The former managing director and vice chairman of a Swiss bank pleaded guilty today for his role in a billion-dollar international scheme to launder funds embezzled from Venezuelan state-owned oil company Petróleos de Venezuela, S.A. (PDVSA). If you go to the Justice department, you can see the official complaint. It's long and full of extremely boring details, but basically: quote:In 2016 a Confidential Source (CS) approached the HSI Miami Office (HSI-Miami) regarding 78 million in Euros the CS received, which originated from a loan contract with PDVSA. The CS was involved in a money laundering conspiracy and wanted to surrender the money and cooperate. HSI-Miami thereafter began an undercover investigation: Organized Crime and Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) Operation Money Flight. There's a bunch of details about how the scheme worked, who was involved, etc. Is it perfect proof? No. But it's pretty serious. It's a massive, thorough criminal scheme involving many people in and out of the Venezuelan government and its real ruling classes. It's sufficiently serious that it can't just be dismissed as "there is lots of corruption generally going on which is to be expected considering how hosed things are." Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 11:50
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Thats pretty compelling unlike the rest. I'll be curious as to how it ends
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Feb 6, 2019 11:51
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Maduro is a cool guy and I'm going to rotely defend him out of socialist solidarity. But once it becomes too inconvenient then he was never a socialist to begin with and socialism has never been tried.
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Feb 6, 2019 11:51
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Maduro sucks op i don't think i've ever claimed he was good
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Feb 6, 2019 11:53
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Jose posted:Maduro sucks op i don't think i've ever claimed he was good Trump and that ghoul pair Bolton and Abrams are combined probably an order of magnitude worse. It's a poo poo dilemma - how to make things better in Venezuela? Can't leave Maduro in power, don't want US involved. Support the opposition, but there's almost no levers to apply pressure to Maduro to go.
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Feb 6, 2019 11:57
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Rust Martialis posted:Trump and that ghoul pair Bolton and Abrams are combined probably an order of magnitude worse. To whom? I'm not saying they aren't awful but they're not the ones that currently have my country in the situation it's in.
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Feb 6, 2019 11:59
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