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Hugoon Chavez posted:To whom? I'm not saying they aren't awful but they're not the ones that currently have my country in the situation it's in. Well the collapse of oil price and the US designating it a threat to national security play a large part of that but admittedly the second of those was Obama
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Feb 6, 2019 12:01
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Jose posted:Well the collapse of oil price and the US designating it a threat to national security play a large part of that but admittedly the second of those was Obama Do you mean the collapse in oil production? Funny how despite being the only source of income they destroyed the infrastructure Re the national security threat I’d have to ask what exactly do you mean and more explenation on why you believe it to be relevant
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Feb 6, 2019 12:06
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What about impeachment? I'm hearing that the National Assembly was like three votes short of a supermajority that could presumably do stuff like that and so far Maduro's only reaction to the crisis has been to call for parliamentary elections which would presumably give that to the opposition if they were actually as popular as this thread acts. Instead Guaido has taken the skeevy as all hell approach of declaring himself President and asking military leaders to forcibly depose Maduro, which is not considered a coup by some technical definition that hasn't been clearly explained.
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Feb 6, 2019 12:06
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Hugoon Chavez posted:It's amazing just how well Chavez played the international opinion. He was literally years ahead. This is pretty right. There are a lot of posters in this thread who can't seem to fathom how a leader of a leftist country could be betraying his people. They are so far ingrained in their us vs them, red vs blue ideology that they can't see the forest for the trees. Venezuela is a great country, it must be the western media thats lying. No one is starving. There is no corruption. The elections were fair. This article doesn't change my mind. I cant hear you nanannanananana. Hey I know you hoped this guy would actually care about his people and have a little socialist dreamland, but he is either the most incompetent leader or the most selfish and corrupt. He decimated both the oil economy and the agriculture and food system of the country. And then through his maybe honest attempts to help the citizenry, put them in an even longer term crisis with how he tried to prevent food shortages, by creating a system that raised the true prices even higher, then let the military control the imports, leading to even more corruption. If you look at this country objectively, and not just like Venezuela is your sports team, and no matter what they do, its the right thing because its your team, you might realize its not a socialist country like you hoped you could support, but one that is literally starving and robbing from its citizens.
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Feb 6, 2019 12:09
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Some Guy TT posted:call for parliamentary elections which would presumably give that to the opposition if they were actually as popular as this thread acts How can you be so shamelessly disingenuous?
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Feb 6, 2019 12:13
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I'm pretty sure Guaido's going to be even worse because he's a big fan of privatization and suddenly a bunch of money's going to flood in to the 'elections' to make for some very proper and totally legitimate results that make Trump's friends a lot of money. That being said, Maduro is also a fan of privatization.
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Feb 6, 2019 12:14
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Some Guy TT posted:What about impeachment? I'm hearing that the National Assembly was like three votes short of a supermajority that could presumably do stuff like that and so far Maduro's only reaction to the crisis has been to call for parliamentary elections which would presumably give that to the opposition if they were actually as popular as this thread acts. You're missing the whole 'Constituent National Assembly" episode of 2017. Maduro did not like the opposition winning in 2015 so he had the Supreme Court block them from doing much of anything and then called for a Constituent National Assembly, which supercedes the powers of the National Assembly. The legality (and certainly the morality) of these actions is in question. Let alone the results. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 12:16
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Furia posted:Do you mean the collapse in oil production? Funny how despite being the only source of income they destroyed the infrastructure It makes anyone doing business with Venezuela extremely risky. Credit Suisse got fined $536m for doing business with a country designated as such in 2009. This was done by the Obama government back in 2015
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Feb 6, 2019 12:17
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Jose posted:It makes anyone doing business with Venezuela extremely risky. Credit Suisse got fined $536m for doing business with a country designated as such in 2009. This was done by the Obama government back in 2015 Which business was it? What country? What status are you talking about? These are honest questions. There’s something you know that I don’t and would like to know what it is to inform my opinions accordingly. Was it like a terrorism thing or something?
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Feb 6, 2019 12:21
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Furia posted:Which business was it? What country? What status are you talking about? It was countries between 1995-2006 so quite a lot of possible countries you can see in the second link https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-venezuela-idUSKBN0M51NS20150310 quote:Declaring any country a threat to national security is the first step in starting a U.S. sanctions program. The same process has been followed with countries such as Iran and Syria, U.S. officials said. Designating a country/entity a threat to national security enacts this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Emergency_Economic_Powers_Act
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Feb 6, 2019 12:26
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Pedro De Heredia posted:You're missing the whole 'Constituent National Assembly" episode of 2017. How does that story end anyway? The flashback post says that it will "convene on August 4th 2017" which was a long time ago. Has this assembly ever actually done anything? Also, why is that the comparison point you're going for rather than the 2018 Presidential Election?
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Feb 6, 2019 12:31
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Furia posted:Which business was it? What country? What status are you talking about? Iran. A pretty loving seriously garbage country. Sanctions against Iran by Obama were a good thing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8417239.stm
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Feb 6, 2019 12:33
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Jose posted:It was countries between 1995-2006 so quite a lot of possible countries you can see in the second link Thank you for this. I’ll review my information and inform it based on this info. Some Guy TT posted:How does that story end anyway? The flashback post says that it will "convene on August 4th 2017" which was a long time ago. Has this assembly ever actually done anything? Also, why is that the comparison point you're going for rather than the 2018 Presidential Election? They assigned themselves a bunch of powers on food distribution and other stuff that don’t really pertain to the task of writing a new constitution, but do pertain to the neutering of the national assembly and any other governmental body in the country As of today, there is no new constitution and no evidence they are doing anything about it. They have very successfully become a rubber stamping legislative body so good for them I guess? It is important to point to the 2018 election because the same corrupt electoral apparatus has only become emboldened since then, and the CA has made it even more difficult to run against the government By the way, the elections Maduro called are not for presidency or the CA, but for the national assembly, so that they can use the previously mentioned corrupt apparatus to remove the final claim to legitimacy the opposition has and the final shred of democracy in the government
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Feb 6, 2019 12:38
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Does Guaido have any plans to fix it? Also, why was the strategy for the last two elections literally just to boycott them? I find that bit really odd, because they won gangbusters in 2016. Why were they so sure the next election would be rigged, apparently in a completely unprovable way so that not participating at all was the only way to call attention to it?
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Feb 6, 2019 12:42
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Some Guy TT posted:Also, why is that the comparison point you're going for rather than the 2018 Presidential Election? You're the one asking why the National Assembly doesn't impeach him.
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Feb 6, 2019 13:03
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Some Guy TT posted:Does Guaido have any plans to fix it? Also, why was the strategy for the last two elections literally just to boycott them? I find that bit really odd, because they won gangbusters in 2016. Why were they so sure the next election would be rigged, apparently in a completely unprovable way so that not participating at all was the only way to call attention to it? I’ll try to craft a reply to this, but it’ll take time and I’m at work. Maybe in a day or two I’ll be able to respond informedly, as this is a lot of info you asked for that is very difficult to condense. The gist of it, however, will be: - Don’t know what you mean by “fix it” but having the Constitutient Assembly poo poo or get off the pot would be a good idea, at least as a five second “fix” to this fuckup. - The elections were illegally called, observed, campaigned and governed. This is like 4 years of history to explain. Regarding boycotting I guess they believed the winning move was not to play as to not lend legitimacy to the charade. Relevant is that “the opposition” is not a monolithic institution, and not everyone boycotted. It is important to frame the context clearly to understand the situation. I encourage you to read Chuck Boone’s posts to obtain insight into these matters before hand.
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Feb 6, 2019 13:04
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Of all the bizarre pro-Maduro arguments, the most bizarre one for me is still that the opposition's One Great Trick is to just not participate in elections to 'fool' people somehow.
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Feb 6, 2019 13:05
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Jose posted:Cool I'm sure this wouldn't turn out to be a terrible idea Less than you'd think, actually! So during the Chavez era, a rule was instituted that the PDVSA would always have a majority stake on any joint drilling ventures. The rule was symbolic more than anything else, intending to demonstrate how the oil of Venezuela belonged to Venezuelans, but it quickly started creating issues. Problem was, for a company to agree to hand off 51% of the profits, they're going to expect you to do 51% of the work - and under Chavez and Maduro, the PDVSA had entered a long period of decline, with manpower, expertise, and infrastructure all gradually breaking down over the years-and particularly after the 2002 strike in support of the coup attempt. So in effect, even though Venezuela's oil reserves are massive, the country increasingly lacks the capacity to begin drilling and profiting off the oil - and considering how much of the economy depends on oil revenues, that's a bad thing! So really, what the opposition is proposing is honestly the right move. You scrap the rule, you get more oil pumping, more money for the state in the near term, and more foreign currency you can use to import food and to relieve shortages, as well as to rebuild the PDVSA and the oil infrastructure in general. e: the second part is also reasonable, since it's basically saying 'hey Maduro selling out vast swaths of the country's future for pennies on the dollar was loving bullshit,' which is true Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 13:05
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If you look at the available information it's pretty obvious that state-controlled enterprises in Venezuela - from the PDVSA to CLAP - are having serious problems caused mainly by corruption and incompetence on the part of the ruling elite. The status quo isn't working. So all you people pissing yourselves over Guaido wanting to "privatize" stuff - what the hell else do you suggest should be done? Hand even more of the Venezuelan economy over to the officers and millionaires that are running it into the ground as we speak?
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Feb 6, 2019 13:19
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Well, we could stop sanctioning them. That's just my opinion as an American about what my government should do. As to what the Venezuelans should do about their government, I honestly have no idea. But it sounds like their problem so I don't understand why we need to tip the scales.Furia posted:I’ll try to craft a reply to this, but it’ll take time and I’m at work. Maybe in a day or two I’ll be able to respond informedly, as this is a lot of info you asked for that is very difficult to condense. Thank you for this. I've been trying it out but the first thing I ran into going backwards was a discussion about some guy palming a ballot on live television. An interpretation that seems...unlikely.
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Feb 6, 2019 13:24
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Some Guy TT posted:Well, we could stop sanctioning them. That's just my opinion as an American about what my government should do. And now please point out the specific US sanctions that have contributed to the hyperinflation, starvation and lack of medicines in Venezuela over the last five years. All US sanctions have been conveniently linked to in this thread several times.
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Feb 6, 2019 13:33
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Some Guy TT posted:Well, we could stop sanctioning them. That's just my opinion as an American about what my government should do. As to what the Venezuelans should do about their government, I honestly have no idea. But it sounds like their problem so I don't understand why we need to tip the scales. Because the sanctions significantly decrease the flow of money leaving the country. A good way to not be beholden to predatory foreign interests is to not let the elite siphon off the funds you'll need to rebuild the country.
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Feb 6, 2019 13:37
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Mr. Sunshine posted:So all you people pissing yourselves over Guaido wanting to "privatize" stuff - what the hell else do you suggest should be done? tbh I was going to suggest giving workers control over the means of production, but being that (a) the state wouldn’t allow it (b) the capitalists wouldn’t allow it, there really isn’t an ideal solution given the situation
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Feb 6, 2019 13:37
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These Chuck Boone posts are mostly good actually. They're linking to more specific examples the farther I go back. There's also this very reasonable take-Chuck Boone posted:Trump is a monster and I'm terrified that he'd do something like this as a distraction. I think that it'd be the single most catastrophic thing that could happen to the country. Now that the equally monstrous Bolsonaro is in power in Brazil, the scenario is more likely, I think. In response to this- Grouchio posted:Why hasn't Trump declared an interventionist war already? You'd think he'd have by now. Incidentally "Guaido is a big Bolsinaro fan" is one of like three actual facts I can find about the guy. Mr. Sunshine posted:And now please point out the specific US sanctions that have contributed to the hyperinflation, starvation and lack of medicines in Venezuela over the last five years. All US sanctions have been conveniently linked to in this thread several times. I'm referring to the sanctions we just started for the explicit purpose of legitimizing Guaido. Those ones sound really bad. Obviously they did not create the crisis, but again, I'm just an American who doesn't like it when my President tries to starve children. I'm not proposing a five year plan to save Venezuela and as far as I can tell neither is Guaido.
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Feb 6, 2019 13:37
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Some Guy TT posted:I'm referring to the sanctions we just started for the explicit purpose of legitimizing Guaido. Those ones sound really bad. Obviously they did not create the crisis, but again, I'm just an American who doesn't like it when my President tries to starve children. I'm not proposing a five year plan to save Venezuela and as far as I can tell neither is Guaido. Saying Trump is starving Venezuelans may be technically true, but only in the sense that a million degrees K is hotter than a thousand degrees K. They've been starving for years.
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Feb 6, 2019 13:44
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Some Guy TT posted:These Chuck Boone posts are mostly good actually. They're linking to more specific examples the farther I go back. There's also this very reasonable take- i'm still a naive little poo poo and think it's mostly about the oil, though
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Feb 6, 2019 13:50
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Once the oil is privatized and owned by American capital, all the money from it will be very "efficiently" coming out of Venezuela. This is literally what imperialism is. Instead of whatever share of the profits going to corrupt officials, literally 100% of the profits will be going to American capitalists and none of it will stay in the country. Much better, very efficient. Whatever problems you claim to have with corruption, privatization is literally the same thing but institutionalized and legalized, on a larger scale. It's 2019 and Thatcher is dead but apparently folks are still unironically evoking "efficiency" to justify mass privatization.
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Feb 6, 2019 13:51
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Some Guy TT posted:
You should stop looking a Guaido by himself. Right now he's not a presidential candidate, he's the only possibly alternative to the people that have created an ongoing, crippling and inhumane crisis in a country that by all reasonable metric should be stinking rich. Ideally once things have settled, the proper democratic procedure would be for him to declare elections. Right now it's not about Guaido, it's about getting Maduro and his cronies out of power so that someone, anyone, can at least attempt to get poo poo back on track. Beggars can't be choosers. Having Trump and Bolsonaro backing a change of government is horrible and they're 100% doing it for their own interests which will likely bite us in the rear end in the near future, but they're chemotherapy and we have a body full of cancer. Edit: and by this I'm referring to their diplomatic support, before someone comes around and says that I want US Marines shooting up Caracas while my rich family tips their top hats in the penthouse of our ivory tower. Hugoon Chavez fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 13:53
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Some Guy TT posted:I'm referring to the sanctions we just started for the explicit purpose of legitimizing Guaido. Those ones sound really bad. Obviously they did not create the crisis, but again, I'm just an American who doesn't like it when my President tries to starve children. I'm not proposing a five year plan to save Venezuela and as far as I can tell neither is Guaido. I’m just going to be very clear about something: that things had to get this dire in order for the opposition to gain any international attention is not an accident. This is exactly what Maduro wanted. There is no positive outcome with Maduro in power. Just covering your eyes and saying Venezuelans should just resolve it internally is hugely ignorant of the situation and insulting to the murdered under Maduro’s command I don’t mean to lash out at you as so far you have been very receptive to being informed of the situation, but this kind of statements are very harmful to progressive efforts in Venezuela and I want you to be aware of how the things you are saying can and often are perceived by Venezuelans As far as what Guaidó plans to do in the long term I honestly have no idea, but removing the anchor that is drowning Venezuelans is a titanic task and a massive first step eta: also Guaidó is interim president. His only job right now is to get Maduro out. If he chooses to run (which would be regrettable but likely) he would be standing up to other political figures. While he may have some good momentum it is not necessarily true that he is going to even need a 5 year plan because he might not even win. I honestly don’t think he could stand a chance against Capriles for instance, but I have been wrong before so who knows Furia fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 13:55
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Hugoon Chavez posted:You should stop looking a Guaido by himself. Sanctions that negatively impact the population have as much chance of rocking the boat as they have of galvanazing support against foreign intervention.
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Feb 6, 2019 13:56
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The fact that Guaido has declared himself the figurehead of this movement is honestly the only reason I'm suspicious about the opposition at all. I can think of maybe a dozen more sane and reasonable things that could be done with all this protest energy than put this guy no one has ever heard of in charge of the country because he pinky swears that he's one of the good ones.
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Feb 6, 2019 14:00
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Some Guy TT posted:What about impeachment? If you think Maduro would recognize the ability of the National Assembly to impeach him, I have some lovely swampland to sell you.
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Feb 6, 2019 14:01
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Some Guy TT posted:The fact that Guaido has declared himself the figurehead of this movement is honestly the only reason I'm suspicious about the opposition at all. I can think of maybe a dozen more sane and reasonable things that could be done with all this protest energy than put this guy no one has ever heard of in charge of the country because he pinky swears that he's one of the good ones. The fact it is known he coordinated with the us before doing so is another big reason to be suspicious of him
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Feb 6, 2019 14:04
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Some Guy TT posted:The fact that Guaido has declared himself the figurehead of this movement is honestly the only reason I'm suspicious about the opposition at all. I can think of maybe a dozen more sane and reasonable things that could be done with all this protest energy than put this guy no one has ever heard of in charge of the country because he pinky swears that he's one of the good ones. quote:Guaido, the newly-named leader of the country’s National Assembly, declared himself interim president last week after twice speaking by phone with Pence
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Feb 6, 2019 14:04
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Pedro De Heredia posted:I wish I had the confidence to read a translation of a legal document from another country and make bold pronouncements about what is and isn't legal there based on just that. Cool, so you agree. Amazing how the responses devolve to petty ad hominem the second pro-coup posters encounter facts. zapplez posted:Iran. A pretty loving seriously garbage country. Sanctions against Iran by Obama were a good thing. Lol at thinking Iran is a worse influence on the world than the US
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Feb 6, 2019 14:06
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Ideally once things have settled, the proper democratic procedure would be for him to declare elections. Listen, the only way to fix Venezuela is to go from regular elections to maybe elections. The dumb poor of Venezuela keep electing leftists and that’s just unacceptable.
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Feb 6, 2019 14:08
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uninterrupted posted:Listen, the only way to fix Venezuela is to go from regular elections to maybe elections. Yeah this is what I said! Your reading comprehension is, as usual, top notch!
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Feb 6, 2019 14:11
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Guaido was elected leader by the democratically elected National Assembly. He's not some nobody who came from nowhere. And the fact that he coordinated with the US before making a move seems like a nobrainer to me - without any international support this effort is doomed from the start.
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Feb 6, 2019 14:12
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Mr. Sunshine posted:Guaido was elected leader by the democratically elected National Assembly. He's not some nobody who came from nowhere. And the fact that he coordinated with the US before making a move seems like a nobrainer to me - without any international support this effort is doomed from the start. The Venezuelan Supreme Court said he’s not the legitimate president. That’s pretty much the end of the conversation as far as how legal the coup is. Incredible that a bunch of wealthy Venezuelans want the legal analysis of a bunch of Americans to overrule real Venezuelans, who overwhelmingly support their democratically elected president.
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Feb 6, 2019 14:15
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uninterrupted posted:The Venezuelan Supreme Court said he’s not the legitimate president. That’s pretty much the end of the conversation as far as how legal the coup is. Incredible that a bunch of wealthy Venezuelans want the legal analysis of a bunch of Americans to overrule real Venezuelans, who overwhelmingly support their democratically elected president. This thread has a really good op, you should read it sometime.
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Feb 6, 2019 14:17
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