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Mel Mudkiper posted:Art is the purest of human endeavors. It is what defines our nature, and lies in the means of our redemption and enlightenment. Art is the medium through which we, simple hairless apes, strive to create meaning of a world that would otherwise be dark and unknowable. It is how we communicate our essence, and preserve our legacy to our ancestors. I value art because I value mankind. If you want to reduce art to the level of a wild animal getting high off a local plant, that is on you. But in doing so you demean the human endeavor. So worldbuilding is the equivalent of science (as in the opposite of art)? Pure description without inherant purpose, without any interest in meaning?
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Feb 6, 2019 15:18
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lofi posted:So worldbuilding is the equivalent of science? Pure description without inherant purpose, without any interest in meaning? I don't get how you interpret science to be description without purpose or meaning
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Feb 6, 2019 15:19
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Nerdburger_Jansen posted:Worldbuilding being an end in itself isn't the same thing as bad worldbuilding. Yes, it is.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:19
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I don't get how you interpret science to be description without purpose or meaning as description without purpose. A map, rather than a destination.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:20
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Yes, it is. Why does the creation of a world have to be in service of something else?
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Feb 6, 2019 15:21
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lofi posted:as description without purpose. A map, rather than a destination. Science is a philosophy of process. Science is simply a modern way of codifying the exploration of ideas, not a unique endeavor in itself. Curiosity is part of the essence of man, science is just a way to satisfy that urge.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:22
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Nerdburger_Jansen posted:Why does the creation of a world have to be in service of something else? because why exist otherwise
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Feb 6, 2019 15:22
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wizzardstaff posted:If you want to look for examples of worldbuilding done poorly in Sanderson's books you don't need to go further than the first 20 pages of the first Stormlight book, which are basically a walkthrough of a video game tutorial level. A character walks down a straight hallway and encounters enemies in ones and twos, using his basic magic abilities one by one to defeat them. As he does so he explains in detail what each move does and what its powers and limitations are. Sometimes there are cutscene flashbacks. Then there's a boss fight and the level is done. Even speaking as someone who reads the Coppermind wiki for fun, that takes you right out of the action. There's also a quantifiable source of power that has a visual cue (the character glows more brightly depending on how much he has), and a conveniently positioned source of that power (lamps) lined along the walls for him to recharge.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:23
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Science is a philosophy of process. Fair, I should have been more specific, I meant 'scientific laws', as in physical rules, the equations of chemistry and gravity. e: not that it matters, because after that it's half a page later and an irrelevant derail now.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:24
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Nerdburger_Jansen posted:Why does the creation of a world have to be in service of something else? Because you're telling a story. Worldbuilding serves the story only in so much that it helps it be told. Anything else, and you're getting into the territory of those 'writers' who will talk at length about their amazing world and fifty outlined novels, none of which they've written yet but, hey, would you like to hear about the naming conventions of this species I made up?
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Feb 6, 2019 15:25
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Nerdburger_Jansen posted:Why does the creation of a world have to be in service of something else? Why is the creation of a world valuable if there's nothing in it?
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Feb 6, 2019 15:25
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Mel Mudkiper posted:because why exist otherwise Why not? Say you think a world should exist in service of something else – character, plot, whatever. OK, but then why should these things exist? Can I demand they not exist for their own sake, only in service to yet another thing? Maybe they're in service to the human condition, you say, and enlightening us. OK then, it follows that character can do this but setting can't. Why? edit: Milkfred E. Moore posted:Because you're telling a story. Worldbuilding serves the story only in so much that it helps it be told. Anything else, and you're getting into the territory of those 'writers' who will talk at length about their amazing world and fifty outlined novels, none of which they've written yet but, hey, would you like to hear about the naming conventions of this species I made up? A story can be about a world, as well as about a character, etc. Places are not interchangeable, and they do not necessarily exist 'for' characters. Just like the world, which is there as more than a stage for us to enact personal dramas on.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:25
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Hey BoTL, you go on about Calvino a lot, right? Where would you suggest I start if I wanted to read something from them?
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Feb 6, 2019 15:26
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Why is the creation of a world valuable if there's nothing in it? Some people do just read RPG sourcebooks. The value can be in imagining your own characters in someone else's pre-built world, I guess. A kind of outsourced storytelling.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:27
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Conrad_Birdie posted:Hey BoTL, you go on about Calvino a lot, right? Where would you suggest I start if I wanted to read something from them?
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Feb 6, 2019 15:28
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Art is the purest of human endeavors. It is what defines our nature, and lies in the means of our redemption and enlightenment. Art is the medium through which we, simple hairless apes, strive to create meaning of a world that would otherwise be dark and unknowable. It is how we communicate our essence, and preserve our legacy to our ancestors. I value art because I value mankind. If you want to reduce art to the level of a wild animal getting high off a local plant, that is on you. But in doing so you demean the human endeavor. What? Why is art the "purest" of human endeavors? How is "purity" measured here? Why is it desirable? How does pursuing escape harm the "purity of art"? There are many other ways humanity construes meaning from the world, such as Philosophy or Religion. Likewise, preserving our legacy is done primarily through History and Culture. You are putting Art on a pedestal and defining clear limits on its function and purpose, without having done the work to justify either.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:29
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:There are many other ways humanity construes meaning from the world, such as Philosophy or Religion. because history, culture, philosophy and religion have no correlation to art lol
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Feb 6, 2019 15:31
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Vegetarianism is not a retreat from modernity. That's beside the point ("retreat from modernity" and "vegetarianism" are both things which are fine in themselves, but also associated with German Fascism through no fault of their own) but more comically, Nazi vegetarianism actually sortof was a retreat from modernity. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensreform Mel Mudkiper posted:Art is the purest of human endeavors. It is what defines our nature, and lies in the means of our redemption and enlightenment. Art is the medium through which we, simple hairless apes, strive to create meaning of a world that would otherwise be dark and unknowable. It is how we communicate our essence, and preserve our legacy to our ancestors. I value art because I value mankind. If you want to reduce art to the level of a wild animal getting high off a local plant, that is on you. But in doing so you demean the human endeavor. That's just, like, your opinion, man More to the point though: art can be medicine. Art can save and heal and palliate. That "wild animal getting high off a local plant" is the root origin of medicine. When I think of high and holy purposes of art, one of the highest is surely that art by which we help each other get through the days and the years, and which sets ideals and signposts towards a better possible world. If a daydream of elves and wizards helps palliate existence, why is that any less ennobling than any other purpose which Art can serve?
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Feb 6, 2019 15:31
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That's just, like, your opinion, man Escapism is not medicinal, it is at best anesthetic
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Feb 6, 2019 15:34
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And gently caress knows that's never a good thing.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:35
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Escapism is not medicinal, it is at best anesthetic Again, not a meaningful distinction see: anesthesiology, literally the highest-paid medical speciality (we could go into a big derail here about the opioid epidemic and addiction but it would probably be dumb)
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Feb 6, 2019 15:36
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Mel Mudkiper posted:If your text cannot carry meaning, why write? A noble sentiment that doesn't pay the bills. Seems like somebody escaped reality here.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:39
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Again, not a meaningful distinction anesthesiologists, despite their income, do not cure. I would also note their income is due to the likelihood of it being done wrong will kill someone, not the value of the act itself. They simply make those who provide a cure better able to do their function For example, particularly meritorious genre literature uses escapism to condemn it. The Phantom Toolbooth, for instance, is ultimately a usage of imagination to allow children to better navigate reality. Even the lauded "Hero's Journey" (ugh) is about conveying social meaning through fable. I have no issue with using the element of escape to help a person explore things about their reality that is uncomfortable, but if the sole outcome is simply to numb the reader to reality, it lacks merit.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:42
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Torrannor posted:A noble sentiment that doesn't pay the bills. Seems like somebody escaped reality here. What does 21st century capitalism have to do with the human endeavor in its entirety If you only allow meaning to exist through the narrow lens of a blip in human history, that is your own problem
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Feb 6, 2019 15:44
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If you believe that getting rid of pain, even for a short time, has no value at all then I find it hard to believe you've ever been in severe pain.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:45
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Mel Mudkiper posted:anesthesiologists, despite their income, do not cure. I would also note their income is due to the likelihood of it being done wrong will kill someone, not the value of the act itself. And yet some things cannot (yet) be cured. Would you deny pain meds to chronic cancer patients?
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Feb 6, 2019 15:45
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Mel Mudkiper posted:anesthesiologists, despite their income, do not cure. I would also note their income is due to the likelihood of it being done wrong will kill someone, not the value of the act itself. Mel Mudkiper posted:What does 21st century capitalism have to do with the human endeavor in its entirety Sham bam bamina! posted:Are you ever not huffing your own farts?
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Feb 6, 2019 15:45
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earlier you criticized that I did not take arguments seriously now you are arguing I take them too seriously If you simply don't like me, that's perfectly fine. But don't act like your personal aversion is somehow tied into a meaningful critique if you simply want an excuse to insult me. Also, lol, you are still salty about dragons
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Feb 6, 2019 15:47
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Torrannor posted:And yet some things cannot (yet) be cured. Would you deny pain meds to chronic cancer patients? you are stretching the metaphor to the point of tearing what is the chronic cancer of the human condition that makes your point meaningful in the metaphor?
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Feb 6, 2019 15:49
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I am simply giving my honest impression, which is that you write like someone who huffs his own farts.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:49
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Sham bam bamina! posted:I am simply giving my honest impression, which is that you write like someone who huffs his own farts. I am sorry I am not yet so irony poisoned that I allow myself to take things that I care about seriously
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Feb 6, 2019 15:51
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To explain your own metaphor, Mel: Possibly someone is in a poo poo situation in life, which they cannot escape from, and therefore escapism is a valuable thing to them.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:52
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Mel Mudkiper posted:anesthesiologists, despite their income, do not cure. Again, I really object strongly to this distinction for a lot of reasons. Some are personal and professional so I won't go into them here -- I don't want to get distracted by the analogy -- but the ultimate point is that it's just not that meaningful a distinction. Many major diseases are not "curable," but can only be palliated; similarly, some realities are so horrible that simply numbing their pain is a valid end in itself. Some horrors cannot be "navigated," but only tolerated. If you haven't had a chance to watch Peter Jackson's new They Shall Not Grow Old you'd probably like it, it really brings the horrors of WW1 trench warfare to life. At the same time, I found some parts of it (literal corpse piles, etc.) simply unwatchable. I can only respect the mind that conjured fantasies of elves and dragons to distract itself from those horrors.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:52
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lofi posted:To explain your own metaphor, Mel: Certainly. But even then the escapism is rarely purely done to escape. Hell, read Colson Whithead or Ta-Nehisi Coates talking about fantasy and comics helping them cope with their experiences as black men in a racist country. Escapism is not bad. Escapism for its own sake is bad.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:54
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Torrannor posted:Would you deny pain meds to chronic cancer patients? Side note: insurance companies sometimes try to deny care using similar reasoning. It has to do with how you define "medical necessity" and is pain management really "necessary" if it doesn't cure? Sorry, bit of a nerve struck there!
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Feb 6, 2019 15:55
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I just want to say that I love this mental image of fantasy readers as desperate, disease-stricken waifs on their last legs who just need a milligram or two of Cosmere to numb the terminal illness that is their joyless existence, when in fact they're usually perfectly happy with who and where they are in life.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:55
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Again, I really object strongly to this distinction for a lot of reasons. Some are personal and professional so I won't go into them here -- I don't want to get distracted by the analogy -- but the ultimate point is that it's just not that meaningful a distinction. Many major diseases are not "curable," but can only be palliated; similarly, some realities are so horrible that simply numbing their pain is a valid end in itself. Some horrors cannot be "navigated," but only tolerated. I am not sure I like this analogy either because it ends up at the conclusion that you are only justified in liking escapist fiction if you live in a world of unending horror.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:55
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Sham bam bamina! posted:as desperate, disease-stricken waifs on their last legs who just need a milligram or two of Cosmere to numb the terminal illness that is their joyless existence, I mean I'm not gonna argue with that wizzardstaff posted:I am not sure I like this analogy either because it ends up at the conclusion that you are only justified in liking escapist fiction if you live in a world of unending horror. spoiler: we all live in a world of unending horror Did you watch the State of the Union last night? I sure as hell didn't, I played Pillars of Eternity and talked with my wife about Gloomhaven Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 15:56
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Side note: insurance companies sometimes try to deny care using similar reasoning. It has to do with how you define "medical necessity" and is pain management really "necessary" if it doesn't cure? Again, you are stretching the metaphor
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Feb 6, 2019 15:56
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Sham bam bamina! posted:I just want to say that I love this mental image of fantasy readers as desperate, disease-stricken waifs on their last legs who just need a milligram or two of Cosmere to numb the terminal illness that is their joyless existence that is how they are describing themselves though I don't take that position, they do.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:57
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