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Pedro De Heredia posted:OK this was taking too long, but there's a pretty long investigation into money laundering through U.S. properties that involves people connected to Maduro and the government. you had me at "extremely boring details"
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Feb 6, 2019 18:44
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Jose posted:It was countries between 1995-2006 so quite a lot of possible countries you can see in the second link Hm. Okay, I'll buy the 'chilling effect' factor. The designation appears to have been linked to the 2015 individual sanctions.
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Feb 6, 2019 18:48
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uninterrupted posted:“Listen to real Venezuelans!” I’m gonna regret posting on this because I’m 99% sure you are trolling but w/e. When countries get hosed up politically, the people living there do hosed up poo poo just to get by. I’m most familiar with China: here, there’s an entire generation’s worth of literature (伤痕文学 or ‘scar literature / the writing of the wounded’) that is about people coming to terms with the poo poo they had to do to survive in the cultural revolution, and trying to reconcile that with their sense of themselves as thoughtful, decent people. If there are severe food shortages in a country, normal people - people like us - are going to be profiteering. They’re going to be committing assault, murder, going to be pimping themselves and their families out, eating from dustbins, whatever. Dignity goes out the loving window. You think people woke up one morning and thought “Hmm, lovely day, time for some price gouging”? No. You shouldn’t even need to know anything about Venezuela to know that human beings don’t work like that! During the Blitz in the UK, there was widespread food hoarding and a lively black market in ration cards ffs and this is a matter of historical record. This is totally normal human behaviour and way less bad than many ways of coping with the situation.
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Feb 6, 2019 18:54
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Kavros posted:I believe I watched part of that take place, and I hope whoever it is still posts, but I don't remember the name. I think there was one from even longer ago, before any of these Venezuela threads and I think before Chavez died where some Veneuzuelan wanted help to emigrate because he was scared for his life because of the extreme rise in crime and the increasingly difficult economic situation. I believe he almost was run off by people telling him he obviously was misinformed about everything and there was really nothing to fear, though he also got some actual information on how to emigrate as well.
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Feb 6, 2019 18:56
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Venezuelans in this thread have been called "not real Venezuelans" because we have access to the internet and speak the magical language of English. Obvious we must be rich burgouise people from old money. for reference, the most easily accessible frame of reference for Americans re: venezuelan expats is cuban expats. there was a time when the US government listened very closely to them about the necessity of armed intervention to replace the fucker who they swore up and down had not only ruined their lives, but also their country. in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs, it turned out they were very white, very bougie, very moneyed, and not unrelated to these factors, very despised back home in relation to their countrymen who didn't make the trip. this was extremely embarrassing to all parties who were not gunned down in the process. when we hear the same notes coming from Venezuelan expats, right down to "race problems, what race problems, every once in a while you just gotta lynch one of the darker ones for presumably supporting the left, there's nothing racist about that" it becomes significantly more difficult for us to buy "no, really, this time's gonna be different you guys." conversely, though, it's a great way to sell intervention to the people who desperately want to prove that the problem with those past coups wasn't the application of home improvement tools to Undesirables, it was that they used the wrong ones. sledgehammers are big and impressive, sure, but they're heavy, and that limits a death squad's operational efficiency! you can kill an indigenous kid much easier with a tire iron!
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Feb 6, 2019 19:00
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:
The utter indifference to the suffering of millions of Venezuelans who have been driven to flee the country and are living hand-to-mouth in surrounding countries is truly stunning. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/venezuela-humanitarian-crisis-refugees-borders-photography-a8579311.html
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Feb 6, 2019 19:26
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Rust Martialis posted:The utter indifference to the suffering of millions of Venezuelans who have been driven to flee the country and are living hand-to-mouth in surrounding countries is truly stunning.
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Feb 6, 2019 19:31
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Rust Martialis posted:The utter indifference to the suffering of millions of Venezuelans who have been driven to flee the country and are living hand-to-mouth in surrounding countries is truly stunning. if it's still stunning you, you haven't been paying attention. wave hello to the millions of Yemenis we're actively starving to death, in the greatest humanitarian crisis in the world today, for their crimes in Being There While Mohammed Bin Sawing WaPo Columnists' Arms Off Wanted To Show Off How Good He Was At Wars. anyone who tells you American foreign policy gives a solitary gently caress about the suffering of millions is trying to sell you something. if someone genuinely wants to know why left-leaning Americans take Venezuelan expats' word with a grain of salt, they have been provided the answer. if someone genuinely wants to know why the Vice President issued Guaido his blessing before he launched his coup attempt, and why the President appointed the architect of genocide in Guatemala to be America's point man in Venezuela, they have also been provided the answer. there is an American demographic that regrets the Bay of Pigs, and a demographic that swears no, really, THIS TIME it'll work. it is vile. it is grotesque. the suffering of Venezuelans does not enter into it at any level. not least as demonstrated by the person we've put in charge of "easing the transition." do you think he's discovered power tools in the intervening decades? heaven knows the sledgehammer poo poo demonstrated he really likes these things to be a spectacle.
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Feb 6, 2019 19:39
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Kavros posted:I mean really all this polemic on the Venezuelans is missing right now is for someone to draft up a huge-nose picture of the wealth hoarding Venezuelan expats carrying giant bags labeled 'hoarded bachaquero money' across the Venezuela border and snickering "heh heh, I can't wait to support a neoliberal coup against my own people so that Maduro can stop making their lives so great" Somebody already posted (on this thread and in another one) that protesters can't be under hardship because they have big speakers and other expensive equipment for their rallies. "Welfare queens" but for the left. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 19:52
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GreyjoyBastard posted:you had me at "extremely boring details" In the 10th edit or so I must have accidentally cut out the really important part, which is that three of the people involved are Maduro's stepchildren.
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Feb 6, 2019 19:54
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:
*Your* callous indifference to the suffering of Venezuelan refugees is the issue at hand; either you were *unaware* of the massive flood of impoverished refugees to Colombia, Brazil and other surrounding countries, in which case you're merely ignorant, or you did know, and chose to overlook their suffering to score cheap debating points, in which case you're a hypocrite. You have indeed "provided the answer", but not one that is to your credit. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 19:57
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considering the size of the cuban expat population, batista-era cuba must have been wakanda given all the millionaires
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Feb 6, 2019 20:01
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the most easily accessible frame of reference for Americans This is the core of the problem, right here.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:01
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Discendo Vox posted:This is the core of the problem, right here. Rust Martialis posted:*Your* callous indifference to the suffering of Venezuelan refugees is the issue at hand; either you were *unaware* of the massive flood of impoverished refugees to Colombia, Brazil and other surrounding countries, in which case you're merely ignorant, or you did know, and chose to overlook their suffering to score cheap debating points, in which case you're a hypocrite. The *only* way to *fix* Venezuela is to install a *US backed puppet government that will cut the welfare state and price controls*
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Feb 6, 2019 20:07
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I do so love these mayfly posters who traipse in here to lecture everyone how terrible the USA is. *All* who oppose Maduro are all US puppets who are right wing, rich and white. Never a suggestion how to solve anything, never a recognition of the suffering within and without Venezuela. No positive ideas, just pure negativity.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:07
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I'd invite the various posters to suggest their ideas to improve Venezuela. End the hunger, pump more oil, yet keep Maduro in place.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:09
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Rust Martialis posted:*Your* callous indifference to the suffering of Venezuelan refugees is the issue at hand; either you were *unaware* of the massive flood of impoverished refugees to Colombia, Brazil and other surrounding countries, in which case you're merely ignorant, or you did know, and chose to overlook their suffering to score cheap debating points, in which case you're a hypocrite. if you want to know where the skepticism comes from, you've been informed. yes. there are definite differences between the two events. not least that it requires considerably less money to flee Venezuela! but Americans have a long memory when it comes to being embarrassed, as the dozen or so coups the CIA backed in the 80s to try to demonstrate the Bay of Pigs was a fluke can attest. the great joke of it all is that it keeps on turning out they were right, it was a fluke, it had a demonstrably much better outcome than any of the times they actually pulled the coup off. if, you know, your metric is human suffering. now, if your target metric is Number Of Undesirables Put To The Hatchet, on the other hand, subsequent efforts went loving -swimmingly-.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:09
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Rust Martialis posted:I do so love these mayfly posters who traipse in here to lecture everyone how terrible the USA is. *All* who oppose Maduro are all US puppets who are right wing, rich and white. why can't these dickless lefties see the potential upsides of sledgehammering racially impure children to death, extremely good question. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 6, 2019 20:12
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:if you want to know where the skepticism comes from, you've been informed. Yes, you said it was because the expats were rich and white, presumably therefore all biased. Evidence was provided that the Venezuelan Exodus does not fit your model. More is available. How has this affected your views on the people who have left Venezuela? Do you still think they are all affluent whites?
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Feb 6, 2019 20:14
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Rust Martialis posted:I do so love these mayfly posters who traipse in here to lecture everyone how terrible the USA is. *All* who oppose Maduro are all US puppets who are right wing, rich and white. “I’m gonna stick my dick in a beehive” You shouldn’t do that, the bees will sting you “Screw you man, you don’t know that” That’s what happened every other time someone put their dick in a beehive “Yeah but this time is different! And I haven’t put my dick in anything for a while, this might end up better!” Putting your dick in a beehive is a real bad idea bro “Ugh, you’re so negative, you never have any positive dick-in-a-beehive stories” (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 6, 2019 20:14
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Rust Martialis posted:I do so love these mayfly posters who traipse in here to lecture everyone how terrible the USA is. *All* who oppose Maduro are all US puppets who are right wing, rich and white. As opposed to your positive suggestion of 'civil war orchestrated by John Bolton and Elliot Abrams, politicians who helped organized genocide, while privatizing Venezuela's natural resources to enrich American billionaires' Very positive suggestion, that
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Feb 6, 2019 20:16
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Lets brainstorm ways to help without loving the beehive
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Feb 6, 2019 20:17
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:why can't these dickless lefties see the potential upsides of sledgehammering racially impure children to death, extremely good question. Thanks for proving the point.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:17
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Flavahbeast posted:Lets brainstorm ways to help without loving the beehive
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Feb 6, 2019 20:19
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There have been a ton of good reasons raised ITT to be opposed to US intervention and maybe even Guaido in particular, given his cooperation with the CIA. But I don't get why some of the same posters feel the need to support Maduro and the PSUV, despite repeatedly demonstrating that they're ignorant about the extent of the corruption, incompetence and repression of any opposition going on in Venezuela. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:20
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A Typical Goon posted:As opposed to your positive suggestion of 'civil war orchestrated by John Bolton and Elliot Abrams, politicians who helped organized genocide, while privatizing Venezuela's natural resources to enrich American billionaires' The only person advocating the above is you, probably so you can pleasure yourself about how smug you could be if it happened. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 6, 2019 20:20
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:There have been a ton of good reasons raised ITT to be opposed to US intervention and maybe even Guaido in particular, given his cooperation with the CIA. But I don't get why some of the same posters feel the need to support Maduro and the PSUV, despite repeatedly demonstrating that they're ignorant about the extent of the corruption, policy failures and repression of any opposition going on in Venezuela. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. Because they don't *care* about it.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:21
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Rust Martialis posted:Yes, you said it was because the expats were rich and white, presumably therefore all biased. missed it, unsurprisingly. the skepticism arises from prominent events in the past where taking the word of expats on how no, really, the people are just BEGGING for an American-backed coup turned out to be an extremely bad idea. i know, as far as you're concerned it's disgustingly unmasculine to advocate against touching a hot stove just because it's burned you every time you've tried to touch it for the last sixty years. this is a new model of stove! it radiates heat slightly differently! surely, this time, THIS time, when you touch it it will not burn! look on the bright side. you've got Donald Trump, Mike Pence, and Elliot Abrams standing right there behind you, insisting that this time will be different, that this time we will be greeted as liberators, and what comes afterwards will be a bright and glorious future. that should be reassuring, no?
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Feb 6, 2019 20:21
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:There have been a ton of good reasons raised ITT to be opposed to US intervention and maybe even Guaido in particular, given his cooperation with the CIA. But I don't get why some of the same posters feel the need to support Maduro and the PSUV, despite repeatedly demonstrating that they're ignorant about the extent of the corruption, incompetence and repression of any opposition going on in Venezuela. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. Because he’s the strongest force against a US coup? If there was an opposition leader who didn’t want to flip over the government and just wanted to institute some reasonable reforms people would probably support him. But the option is Maduro and the status quo or Guaido and Venezuelan ISIS and the choice is fairly obvious.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:25
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:There have been a ton of good reasons raised ITT to be opposed to US intervention and maybe even Guaido in particular, given his cooperation with the CIA. But I don't get why some of the same posters feel the need to support Maduro and the PSUV, despite repeatedly demonstrating that they're ignorant about the extent of the corruption, incompetence and repression of any opposition going on in Venezuela. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. true. if a third option existed, it would be extremely nice to see. unfortunately, we do not live in the world where it presently exists. if you give me the power to snap my fingers and replace Maduro with someone more competent at taking care of the people of Venezuela, he does not last the minute. but give me the choice between him and Team Did Not Get That "I Wanna Be Your Sledgehammer" Was Not About Latin American Politics, and, well. it's not a difficult one. sucks, huh!
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Feb 6, 2019 20:26
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:missed it, unsurprisingly. the skepticism arises from prominent events in the past where taking the word of expats on how no, really, the people are just BEGGING for an American-backed coup turned out to be an extremely bad idea. So what do you suggest should be done to stop venezuelans from starving
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Feb 6, 2019 20:27
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:So what do you suggest should be done to stop venezuelans from starving leave it up to domestic pressures, offer food aid where possible. we have long since passed the point of "it's going to get worse before it gets better." the question is whether the "worse" is going to feature good ol' Abrams-brand death squads hunting down the racially impure, or not. speaking as one of the people who will be paying to equip the death squads in that event, I am against that option.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:30
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uninterrupted posted:Because he’s the strongest force against a US coup? If there was an opposition leader who didn’t want to flip over the government and just wanted to institute some reasonable reforms people would probably support him. yeah I'm done with this You're a loving idiot who doesn't care about Venezuela who hasn't read a goddamn word people have posted in response to your bullshit Go gently caress yourself
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Feb 6, 2019 20:36
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Why do you, personally, as posters in the D&D subforum feel the need to defend Maduro's honor? What do you possibly gain from that? If you don't actually think the PSUV have been good in government, what possible benefit is there from distorting the truth and trying to downplay their crimes?
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Feb 6, 2019 20:37
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Some of you people would defend loving Charles Taylor if he called himself a socialist and claimed to be against the United States.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:38
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:So what do you suggest should be done to stop venezuelans from starving Removing all sanctions is a start. The newly implemented US sanctions are going to have more people starve and the US behavior towards Venezuela, particularly in helping engender and advance the crisis, is a reason (there can be multiple) for the starvation. If you want to reduce suffering, the last thing you want is to completely destabilizing the Venezuelan government and the countries biggest revenue stream. The US policy is literally 'starve them out'. Venezuela quite clearly needs debt restructuring, humanitarian aid, and international stimulus. However, we live in a world dominated by austerity politics, so global capital is going to inflict as much damage as possible.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:39
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Rust Martialis posted:The only person advocating the above is you, probably so you can pleasure yourself about how smug you could be if it happened. Yeah dude everyone against US backed regime change is just a secret sexual masochist gently caress off you disingenuous twat (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 6, 2019 20:41
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Why do you, personally, as posters in the D&D subforum feel the need to defend Maduro's honor? What do you possibly gain from that? If you don't actually think the PSUV have been good in government, what possible benefit is there from distorting the truth and trying to downplay their crimes? I dunno, why do you cheerlead US installed governments? Mostly because it seems like the best choice available? Also I’d argue the claim of distorting the truth are overblown, and mostly from posters who would see Venezuela destroyed to show Chávez’s grave who’s boss. Acknowledging a poor leader has done some good isn’t a distortion of the truth; Stalin was a monster who also lead the USSR to almost singlehandedly defeat the Nazis
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Feb 6, 2019 20:43
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Why do you, personally, as posters in the D&D subforum feel the need to defend Maduro's honor? What do you possibly gain from that? If you don't actually think the PSUV have been good in government, what possible benefit is there from distorting the truth and trying to downplay their crimes? uninterrupted posted:But the option is Maduro and the status quo or Guaido and Venezuelan ISIS and the choice is fairly obvious. pretty much sums it up. there's an inevitable attempt by people on either side to try to come up with a way to make their choice more morally defensible. sometimes that takes the form of trying to defend Maduro's honor. sometimes that takes the form of trying to claim Iraq wasn't actually THAT bad. you smack them down when they come up, and hope like hell a third option presents itself, because neither "maduro gets to keep on keepin' on" or "oh i'm sure Elliot Abrams will be a kind and generous viceroy" are comfortable positions to hold.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:45
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https://twitter.com/cristiancrespoj/status/1093230887049809920 That's how the frontier between Colombia and Venezuela is right now to stop the food aid.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:47
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