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Was EU3 the first game to let you play any nation in the world? That might have been one of the more revolutionary steps in the series history.
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Feb 7, 2019 07:48
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Mantis42 posted:Was EU3 the first game to let you play any nation in the world? That might have been one of the more revolutionary steps in the series history. A quick wiki suggests that that was in 2. But also lol @ being able to play as anyone in 1 by editing a .txt. The more things change...
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Feb 7, 2019 09:15
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The thing that astonishes/horrifies me is that greatest nation of the world Sweden wasn't playable by design in EU1.
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Feb 7, 2019 09:31
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Fellblade posted:Edit: I do worry that the apparent trend we are shown from paradox towards balancing around multiplayer is only going to make AI worse in future titles though. SP Player: Paradox only balances for multiplayer and it is ruining the game MP Player: Paradox only balances for singleplayer and it is ruining the game Paradox  Yes we are working on a quantum state of balancing for singleplayer or multiplayer. Hence why balance collapses when you observe it.
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Feb 7, 2019 09:45
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I just wish you'd balance HoI4 around tanks being required to invade Russia.
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Feb 7, 2019 09:46
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Groogy posted:SP Player: Paradox only balances for multiplayer and it is ruining the game That’s not even close to what I said.  When things like tag switching limits are implemented practically next update to stop a broadcasted dev multiplayer exploit but it takes 10 months to fix Russian AI not building artillery in paid dlc content, I don’t think it’s hard to see how people might get that impression. Impression specifically not necessarily fact, the community deals with imperfect knowledge of what’s going on, even with paradox who are one of the most transparent dev companies out there.
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Feb 7, 2019 10:11
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Fellblade posted:That’s not even close to what I said. That specific change was not done only because of multiplayer but because of implications in singleplayer as well. What KaiserJohan just showed was how the events and missions for Byzantium completely broke apart if you did it like he did. For instance the event you are supposed to get very rarely as an up and coming Byzantium fighting against a big threat next to you that gives you free mana he could consistently for the rest of the game get it to spam him. We've tried to fix these kind of exploits and bugs caused by tag switching in single player but it's always been a losing game. So we just fixed the source of those problems instead. And you are comparing apples and oranges. One is a 5 minute fix by a scripter to stop exploits, one is a complicated problem posed to the AI programmer. But yes sure they are equivalent in how work should be prioritized. We'll stop everything we do and not do anything in parallel anymore. We'll even put our artists on AI. smdh. Groogy fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Feb 7, 2019 |
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Feb 7, 2019 10:48
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In stellaris declaring someone your rival immediately breaks non aggression pacts with no truce timer so you can declare war immediately. We call this a dick move in MP and tell people not to do it. In public broadcasted dev games it’s apparently okay to spam a bug that gives infinite mana and you don’t get kicked out of the game and your lunch stolen? 
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Feb 7, 2019 10:55
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What Paradox should do is sack all their ai programmers and instead buy a factory in China and fill it with wage slaves who connect to your computer when you load up the game and just run all the other countries themselves.
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Feb 7, 2019 11:06
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The EU4 AI can be fairly clever actually, with how and when it attacks you. It of course can also be really stupid and I've seen them war dec without actually having an army because they lost it in the previous war against someone else.
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Feb 7, 2019 11:25
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Groogy posted:That specific change was not done only because of multiplayer but because of implications in singleplayer as well. What KaiserJohan just showed was how the events and missions for Byzantium completely broke apart if you did it like he did. For instance the event you are supposed to get very rarely as an up and coming Byzantium fighting against a big threat next to you that gives you free mana he could consistently for the rest of the game get it to spam him. We've tried to fix these kind of exploits and bugs caused by tag switching in single player but it's always been a losing game. So we just fixed the source of those problems instead. If you can’t see that to an external user with no knowledge of the technical back end, not fixing a bug that negatively effects every single-player session for 8-10 months (!) and then ‘fixing’ something that nobody cared about the very next update after it was highlighted in a multiplayer game gives the impression that multiplayer related issues might be a priority over single-player issues, then I have nothing else to add.
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Feb 7, 2019 12:13
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So Paradox should just not work on anything at all until that bug is fixed, or what? What are you suggesting be done here?
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Feb 7, 2019 13:04
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No he just means that people are not capable of critical thinking and will just assume whatever the community is screaming about is true.
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Feb 7, 2019 13:14
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Hell, the people who code the AI probably aren't even necessarily the same people who work with events. If a bug pops up while you're in the process of fixing another bug, even if that bug isn't related to the first bug and you just happened to discover it, it isn't ignoring the first bug to fix the second, or to notify someone else who CAN fix the second bug while you keep on the first bug.
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Feb 7, 2019 13:22
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Groogy posted:No he just means that people are not capable of critical thinking and will just assume whatever the community is screaming about is true. I mean… where’s the lie?
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Feb 7, 2019 13:35
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Jabor posted:So Paradox should just not work on anything at all until that bug is fixed, or what? What are you suggesting be done here? I am not suggesting anything, I’m not a PR guy, just stating a feeling I had. It could be interpreted as multiplayer gameplay being a higher priority for PDX when compared to previous titles and that single player focused things might suffer because of that, since development time is finite. I believe some people have interpreted it that way, myself included. I’m not some madman raging that artists should be coding. Groogy posted:No he just means that people are not capable of critical thinking and will just assume whatever the community is screaming about is true. I think it’s unfair to imply people are stupid because they speculate when the information required is unavailable to them but not you. Are you saying people should just not speculate at all?
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Feb 7, 2019 13:55
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Fellblade posted:I’m not some madman raging that artists should be coding. Well they should, it's not like it takes all day to draw stick figures or whatever it is that artists do <  >Fellblade posted:I think it’s unfair to imply people are stupid because they speculate when the information required is unavailable to them but not you. Are you saying people should just not speculate at all? Honestly, while I agree with that, it's also kind of unfair to think that a developer that seems to employ very good and transparent practices - up to and including devs posting on those very forums and taking advice / explaining stuff - would secretly act in a way that would piss off a huge part of the community (I have to guess that SP is played by the vast majority of people) just because they're mean or something like that... not saying that you shouldn't voice your concerns, and not saying that sometimes people can be ... how to say it ... less than courteous in telling you that they're not true - so guys, shake hands, make a white peace and let's go on  (and fix the bugs quickly drat you)
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Feb 7, 2019 14:02
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Mantis42 posted:Was EU3 the first game to let you play any nation in the world? That might have been one of the more revolutionary steps in the series history.  Groogy posted:SP Player: Paradox only balances for multiplayer and it is ruining the game To be fair, it's been both stated by a lead dev that Paradox only balances for MP, and some of the AI bugs (not upgrading buildings in Stellaris) definitely seem to support it. That said, I think this is inconsistent. The EU4 AI is okay (even if it openly cheats) and that was the game the lead dev said was balanced only for MP, so  EDIT: Something I just thought about is that CK2's AI, while not very good at the game, isn't really balanced for MP or anything like that, either. Beamed fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Feb 7, 2019 |
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Feb 7, 2019 14:07
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Beamed posted:To be fair, it's been both stated by a lead dev that Paradox only balances for MP, and some of the AI bugs (not upgrading buildings in Stellaris) definitely seem to support it. Where/when was that? Have a link? Genuinely curious, I can only imagine the outburst on the Paradox forums and I want to see that
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Feb 7, 2019 14:20
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TorakFade posted:Honestly, while I agree with that, it's also kind of unfair to think that a developer that seems to employ very good and transparent practices - up to and including devs posting on those very forums and taking advice / explaining stuff - would secretly act in a way that would piss off a huge part of the community (I have to guess that SP is played by the vast majority of people) just because they're mean or something like that... I am a huge fan of paradox with regards to their transparency, as somebody who works in games I hold it as an example to aspire to. I am not intending to imply malice or secrecy on the PDX side at all, merely that I think they may be spending on multiplayer elements more than they used to and that could mean other areas will have less spent on them. I don’t want the game to have bad AI, I’m not saying it will have bad AI. However, along with the other factors I mentioned in the original post (more complexity in an area of perceived weakness, army management AI) and my personal uninformed perception, that the single player experience may suffer as a result of some multiplayer focused changes that have occurred previously (consciously, intentionally or not) combined with devs stating things like only balancing for MP does not inspire me with confidence that the AI will be as good as or better than EU4. I don’t expect it to stop me playing Imperator and PDX already have my pre-order money. 
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Feb 7, 2019 14:22
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I do process automation scripting and design new script configuration options for business software, which is already a pretty tricky thing, and I would probably gouge my eyes out trying to script an AI for a Paradox game with its myriad interconnected systems and mechanics. Of course the risks are rather different for my software and for a game like Imperator: Rome Beamed posted:The AI is really good and -- according to Paradox -- is NOT cheating. Holy poo poo, Home of the Underdogs is still online.
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Feb 7, 2019 14:34
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Fellblade posted:I am a huge fan of paradox with regards to their transparency, as somebody who works in games I hold it as an example to aspire to. If you do work with games then you should know this is not a zero sum game though on how resources are allocated.
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Feb 7, 2019 14:42
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Groogy posted:If you do work with games then you should know this is not a zero sum game though on how resources are allocated. I’m not sure which part exactly you are referring to. Allocating resources is not zero sum, but it’s not whatever the inverse of zero sum is either. If the product owners/design leads/whatevers are big into multiplayer and that single player AI is ‘fine’ doing the things it does in EU4 that we’ve been over in the thread millions of times then it will have an effect on feature priority regardless of professional detachment. I don’t even really know what we are talking about any more to be honest. I want AI in Imperator to be better than EU4 AI but I’ll be surprised if it is. Feature resource allocation speculation based off a few comments and changes is the tiniest part of why I expect that to be the case.
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Feb 7, 2019 15:28
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Fellblade posted:If you can’t see that to an external user with no knowledge of the technical back end, not fixing a bug that negatively effects every single-player session for 8-10 months (!) and then ‘fixing’ something that nobody cared about the very next update after it was highlighted in a multiplayer game gives the impression that multiplayer related issues might be a priority over single-player issues, then I have nothing else to add. I would rather they worry about making a good game with the limited resources they have instead of worrying about “good looks” and how some shitposter critiques their patchnote details tbqh hth
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Feb 7, 2019 17:23
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Senor Dog posted:I would rather they worry about making a good game with the limited resources they have instead of worrying about “good looks” and how some shitposter critiques their patchnote details tbqh hth Me too 
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Feb 7, 2019 17:52
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Senor Dog posted:I would rather they worry about making a good game with the limited resources they have instead of worrying about “good looks” and how some shitposter critiques their patchnote details tbqh hth
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Feb 7, 2019 18:10
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BigglesSWE posted:I love how we have a release date for Imperator before Man the Guns. Speaking of which, Man the Guns is coming out Feb 28.
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Feb 7, 2019 18:12
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I've seen the Crete LP mentioned many times, but it's one I don't think I've read. And I'm having a hard time finding it. Can someone point me at it
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Feb 7, 2019 19:08
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I mean....it is in your name... I definitely get how this game can be really annoying. I myself get annoyed with how much micro can be involved when you get into the later parts of the game, so I understand where your point is coming from. But then I think that if they took out the warfare micro, then it’s kind of like asking the game to play itself, which we already got with HOI3. Maybe this is something that can be replaced by whatever the EU version is of the command system in HOI4, where you can set broad orders but you still control individual units a lot. There’s probably some innovation which can be done, here.
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Feb 7, 2019 19:54
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i'm annoyed about single player bugs too, however it may also be much, much easier to replicate and fix a bug with events that someone noticed in multiplayer where something like "AI russia doesn't build artillery" is harder to figure out the root cause of. Is it because they don't trade for resources? Do they not research the templates? Is it a general issue with the AI in terms of prioritization? Holding off an easy fix so the community doesn't think you're playing favorites with mp/sp is silly.
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Feb 7, 2019 19:54
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The Narrator posted:A quick wiki suggests that that was in 2. But also lol @ being able to play as anyone in 1 by editing a .txt. The more things change... I remember doing this!! 
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Feb 7, 2019 20:02
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axeil posted:i'm annoyed about single player bugs too, however it may also be much, much easier to replicate and fix a bug with events that someone noticed in multiplayer where something like "AI russia doesn't build artillery" is harder to figure out the root cause of. Is it because they don't trade for resources? Do they not research the templates? Is it a general issue with the AI in terms of prioritization? Now, if a dev had publicly stated that they are balancing more around MP *and* they "rush" to fix an MP bug, and yet again provide no other context - what conclusion are you going to come to? This is what the discussion is about.
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Feb 7, 2019 20:08
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I dont think anyone is saying that one change should be held back until another is figured out and ready. I think the commentary was more about communication about intentions and design. "Bug where AI Russia cant build artillery in SP" "Bug where Johan abused a mechanic in MP" are both bugs. If the first one was found nine months ago and the second one last week, and then the second gets fixed immediately with no commentary about "Hey we want to fix this but AI is hard" then people may get the perception that the MP bug is more important than the SP bug because there is no other context. ah, a good point. if a bug is hard to fix and the community is frustrated about it, i don't see the harm in "we are trying but it's complex to fix". especially because of the stellaris debacle
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Feb 7, 2019 20:24
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idhrendur posted:I've seen the Crete LP mentioned many times, but it's one I don't think I've read. And I'm having a hard time finding it. Can someone point me at it Well, this is the link. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3257534 Full warning, however: first off, you're gonna need archives. Second of all, this thing is goddamn massive because of the intensive Goon participation process, and there's not a lot you can skip because a lot of the important elements of the story come from people's characters and their side plots. Thirdly, I haven't reread this basically ever, so I have no idea how many of the image links still work. There might be broken things in there. For those who can't be bothered to read 800+ pages of Goons roleplaying anachronistic Cretan senators, the Crete LP was an LP of Europa Universalis: Rome where Martin "Wiz" Anward handicapped himself by letting SA goons make all his decisions for him. He did this by declaring them members of the Cretan Senate who could draft bills and pass laws to dictate how the state was to be operated. It was a huge trainwreck, I'd rather not ever think about my writing contributions to it again, and also one of the best things this forum's ever done.
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Feb 7, 2019 20:41
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I can't wait for wiz to get assigned to Imperator and basically just make the game into the ultimate platform for CreteLP-style let's plays.
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Feb 7, 2019 20:58
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Redeye Flight posted:Well, this is the link. He's not joking, half the fun is Senate-chat and I remember one instance of a guy voting and throwing everyone's plan into the gutter
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Feb 7, 2019 21:11
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The Al Andalus LP is kinda similar with its bill system, but it only had that going for a few centuries, and even then it was never as intense. The whole thing was fully parliamentary, and you could assign goals for Wiz, pass laws that stay until repealed, all kinds of poo poo. I think it was each party got one bill, and ruling party gets two? At the end of a legislative session, every party got to choose which bills they were going with, and everybody got to vote on the final assembled legislation, so you would worry about somebody putting in a poison bill so nothing got passed. The real lynchpin to all the drama was that the official goon parties (there was weird third party poo poo developing towards the end, but technically everyone was still one of the 5 proper parties) were based off of the in-game parties, and one of those parties, the populists, is basically the party of discontent (blah blah blah, historical populists were more complicated and can be construed to have more philosophically developed goals  , in-game, none of that mattered and they were just a metric of discontent). That meant that whenever things went wrong or bad stuff was happening, the populists got more seats in the in-game senate and their power increased. They were the poison pill to all legislation. Everybody knows how goons can hoist themselves by their own petard, but if there's actually a group actively motivated to destroy everything? It got pretty crazy.It was fascinating and I feel like I learned a fair amount about how politics work from all of it, but I only ever lurked. I was taking a class in Athenian politics at the same time, and I totally understood why Athens had a system of exiling one person every year by popular vote.
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Feb 7, 2019 21:29
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I really despised the populist party in EU:Rome, the party made no sense and always against everything. The way around it is to never appoint a populist to any position in your state whatsoever, no matter how good they are. I do hope Civil wars in Imperator lets loyal senators raise their own army for you, as in EU:Rome, it made tedious internal strife into something more fun, getting out of a civil war even stronger then how you came in, but with a lot of new legions personally loyal to persons sets the precedent for round two, which raises even more legions!
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Feb 7, 2019 22:19
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SlothfulCobra posted:
I remember we had an epilogue of sorts that kinda prophetized IRL 2010's in how the in-fighting and bickering of the p̶o̶p̶u̶l̶i̶s̶t̶s̶  democratic groups paved the way for an authocrat
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Feb 7, 2019 23:39
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TorakFade posted:Where/when was that? Have a link? Genuinely curious, I can only imagine the outburst on the Paradox forums and I want to see that Yeah, if you can find a way to link stuff from the old Paradox forum (link I have is dead since the migration). Johan was the one who said it and the outburst was about what you'd expect. (Ironically, Johan meant it in a correct way - the AI is technically players too. But alas)
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Feb 8, 2019 01:24
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