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If you wanna go that route then part 3 literally could not have happened because Jotaro was killed by Pucci. And from there everything else falls apart. I don't think the other parts happened in the new world, but it doesn't really matter since they already happened in the past parts. Usually I hate endings where everyone's lives are totally different at the end, but because JoJo is so inherently disconnected in terms of settings, it doesn't bother me that much here.
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Feb 9, 2019 18:29
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Arist posted:Nothing implies they do, dude! If you read it, then it happened. The future does not retcon the past. The past may be in the past but what happened still happened, no matter how far into the future you go.
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Feb 9, 2019 18:30
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FirstAidKite posted:If you read it, then it happened. Yeah this
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Feb 9, 2019 18:35
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Dragonwagon posted:The only people who got replaced in the new world were the ones killed by Pucci in the old one. And then, when the whole thing reverts, Emporio is clearly still himself. This implies that anyone not killed by Pucci is still the exact same person and their past has not changed. Uh, no. Emporio is still himself because he physically traveled from the old universe. That's the way his defeat of Pucci is framed. I'm looking at it right now. Besides, even if Emporio was still himself because he wasn't killed by Pucci, he shouldn't remember Jolyne and the others, who never existed in this timeline. Your explanation doesn't make any sense. Considering that besides Emporio we don't actually see any characters who weren't killed by Made in Heaven besides Weather Report (who doesn't talk and isn't named), your argument here kinda falls apart. Expect My Mom posted:the other parts happened because they exist in your memory. do you remember them? do you remember your tears? your laughter? your brotherhood? i assure you that no matter what, those were always very, very real. and if that answer is not enough for you, i do not know what to tell you This is just not how most people think and feel about stories, my dude. I'm not saying you have to think the ending is bad. I'm not even saying I do. I'm just asking you to consider why someone might be disappointed that the characters and events of the previous parts are no longer "real" within the world of the story.
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Feb 9, 2019 18:36
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i actually think that's how a loooooot of people think about stories. like a lot. fiction isn't real and lives in us and is only externalized through us. you are what makes the fiction real. if it happened, it was real to you. if it was real to you, it happened. this isn't me defending It Was All A Dying Dream type stories, but like, asking if something is Real in a story, a story that by nature Is Not Real is silly
Expect My Mom fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 18:43
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instead of asking Was It Real at the end of a story ask yourself How I Feel
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Feb 9, 2019 18:45
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Expect My Mom posted:the other parts happened because they exist in your memory. do you remember them? do you remember your tears? your laughter? your brotherhood? i assure you that no matter what, those were always very, very real. and if that answer is not enough for you, i do not know what to tell you FirstAidKite posted:The future does not retcon the past. The past may be in the past but what happened still happened, no matter how far into the future you go. To expand on both of these points, part 6 only "retcons" the past parts from within the context of part 6. Its a self contained story (as is every other part). At worse it references other parts as a cheap way to heighten the drama, but the only thing part 6 retcons is Annasui's gender. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 18:46
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Expect My Mom posted:instead of asking Was It Real at the end of a story This is incredibly loving patronizing, dude. And besides that, maybe someone feels sad that the characters they've gotten to know and come to appreciate not only won't return, but have had their unwritten stories abruptly cut off. It is a basic human reaction to stories to wonder about the lives of the characters, to think about their histories and futures. The answer provided in the ending of Part 6 is that it's all gone. From this point on, it never existed in this universe. Do you at least understand how someone would maybe be sad or disappointed with that ending? I'm not even criticizing the ending. I'm just pointing out a hypothetical problem someone might have, and the thread gets insanely defensive. It's really nuts.
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Feb 9, 2019 18:54
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given that part 7 is an entirely different reality i'm not sure why it would even matter. none of them, different versions or otherwise, would even have a chance of showing up, and i vastly prefer araki giving them a cathartic end instead of just killing them off and leaving it at that or dragging their story out forever to the point where it's obvious he doesn't want to do it anymore
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Feb 9, 2019 18:54
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There is a difference between conclusively ending your story and writing it out of existence. There is a difference between conclusively ending your story with the deaths of every major character and writing it out of existence. Going, "well they wouldn't have shown up again anyway" is absurd meta-rationalizing that denies the importance of the emotional impact the ending is going for. I feel like I'm talking to robots. What's not to get about the sadness inherent to realizing that every character we've ever seen has been replaced by an identical stranger, with the trajectories of their lives very likely being radically altered, and none of the events we experienced with them that informed who they are occurred? There's a loss there.
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Feb 9, 2019 19:01
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https://twitter.com/goIdexp/status/1093520476754886657
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Feb 9, 2019 19:14
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Arist posted:This is incredibly loving patronizing, dude. And besides that, maybe someone feels sad that the characters they've gotten to know and come to appreciate not only won't return, but have had their unwritten stories abruptly cut off. It is a basic human reaction to stories to wonder about the lives of the characters, to think about their histories and futures. The answer provided in the ending of Part 6 is that it's all gone. From this point on, it never existed in this universe. Do you at least understand how someone would maybe be sad or disappointed with that ending? but i really mean it. too often people care more about What Happened in a story rather than the emotions, messages and themes within them. Being upset with an ending is fine and natural, but it's important to unpack why you feel that way. What did you want out of the story? What did you get? What did the story give you? Why did the author make the story give that to you? Arist posted:There's a loss there. I don't see it as a loss, not a complete one. Irene is extremely happy here, and cares deeply for her father, wanting her permission to marry. The new Hermes just got of prison, new Weather is traveling around, free of family baggage. Things are certainly different here, but isn't terrible. I'd say look to Emporio as an example here. Emporio is scared and confused, just as we are, these are not his beautiful friends. but Irene shows him warmth and he comes along anyway. Perhaps these can people can also be beautiful friends. Perhaps he can be happy here too. Maybe we all can. This is something entirely new for them, and I find that exciting. You have to crack painfully gathered and package eggs if you want to make something new to eat. It's not that i don't understand what someone would be upset about, but I just don't share that sentiment at all. Arist posted:What's not to get about the sadness inherent to realizing that every character we've ever seen has been replaced by an identical stranger, with the trajectories of their lives very likely being radically altered, and none of the events we experienced with them that informed who they are occurred?
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Feb 9, 2019 19:15
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i feel like you're entirely missing the part where people acknowledge it's sad yet can also find ways to see it in a positive light at the same time, because none of it exists in a vacuum and the efforts of the characters we know are what lead to the end of the evil guy who would have had control over the trajectory of reality but because of what they accomplished people are free to live their lives even if they will never know what actually happened all of the events leading up to that moment didn't just magically get negated, they were the reason why things played out the way they did. people are responding because, to use a term you're bringing out, just saying 'wow nothing mattered' is really myopic and at this point i'm not sure anyone really knows what to say
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Feb 9, 2019 19:16
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Johnny Joestar posted:i feel like you're entirely missing the part where people acknowledge it's sad yet can also find ways to see it in a positive light at the same time, because none of it exists in a vacuum and the efforts of the characters we know are what lead to the end of the evil guy who would have had control over the trajectory of reality but because of what they accomplished people are free to live their lives even if they will never know what actually happened Okay, first off, I keep explicitly stating, "these are not necessarily my exact thoughts and reactions here." I'm just saying I get why someone might be bummed about it, especially someone who hasn't had sixteen years to unpack it. I'm asking you guys to acknowledge that there are possibly differing-but-still-valid readings and interpretations of this work of fiction. But also, where in conversation has anyone acknowledged that it's sad? Because, like, I keep saying people say poo poo like "it doesn't matter because none of those characters would ever have shown up again anyway," which is ridiculous and just... not how you should think about stories. I am also not saying "wow nothing mattered," I am acknowledging the inherent tragedy in remembering a past that no longer was, and people that no longer exist in the same form. Yeah, maybe Josuke and Okuyasu are still buds. But they're not the exact same people. If we saw them again there would inevitably be some sort of disconnect. I like the stuff you guys are getting out of the ending. My real main issue with it, I guess, is that the stuff it wants to communicate is incredibly large and dense and it has almost no time to express it, so we're forced to read a lot out of very, very little. I'm not saying that makes that stuff invalid, it's just kind of jarring.
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Feb 9, 2019 19:28
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Pretty sure people mentioned like a billion times that, yes, it's a bittersweet ending but that doesn't mean parts 1-5 were "pointless"TheLoneStar posted:Then there you go. Characters from past Parts constantly show up later on. Jotaro especially and Jolyne would have probably joined that trend too. Resetting the Universe just made it seem like the efforts of all the past protagonists meant absolutely nothing because everything and everyone they worked for are now dead anyway. like this post, which seems a bit hyperbolic because "creating a new universe where dio hasn't cursed the joestar family" is apparently "absolutely nothing" Honestly, it feels to me like people are just upset that characters from past parts won't show up post part-6, which, yes is a bit disappointing because it was cool having that little bit of continuity, but calling the efforts of the characters in parts 1-6 "pointless" is like "most of part 3 is useless filler" levels of Bad Take
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Feb 9, 2019 19:49
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Xad posted:Pretty sure people mentioned like a billion times that, yes, it's a bittersweet ending Then quote one of those posts from someone who was arguing in favor of the ending
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Feb 9, 2019 19:52
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Also when you repeatedly put the word "pointless" in quotes you should probably like, make sure someone actually used that word
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Feb 9, 2019 19:54
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Arist posted:There is a difference between conclusively ending your story and writing it out of existence. There is a difference between conclusively ending your story with the deaths of every major character and writing it out of existence. Outside of Jotaro, Joseph, and maybe Rohan no major character from a previous part dies in Part 6, let alone are written out of existence. Josuke and Okuyasu, for example, are not characters in Part 6. The trajectory of their lives is not disrupted. Now, Rohan does cameo in Part 6, but I think he has actually has a few stories that take place after the Part 6's timeline? So in the context of Part 6's story, he presumably died, but in the other stories, the events that killed him didn't occur. This isn't a retcon, or a break in continuity or anything. It's just that different things happen in different stories. Arist posted:But also, where in conversation has anyone acknowledged that it's sad? Because, like, I keep saying people say poo poo like "it doesn't matter because none of those characters would ever have shown up again anyway," which is ridiculous and just... not how you should think about stories. That is apparently how they think about stories, and regardless, that's how stories work.
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Feb 9, 2019 20:01
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I could not give less of a poo poo if the previous parts happened in-universe or not
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Feb 9, 2019 20:11
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Schwarzwald posted:Outside of Jotaro, Joseph, and maybe Rohan no major character from a previous part dies in Part 6, let alone are written out of existence. This is both bafflingly pedantic and mind-numbingly obtuse. Do you legitimately think, "Josuke is not in this part, therefore when the entire universe reset he was unaffected" is a compelling argument? That's just incredibly dense. I would argue many people, if not most of them, think of JoJo as not eight stories, but one (or maybe at least two, I guess, considering Part 7's reboot). The reason it's a bad way to look at stories is because you're actively working to deny the legitimacy of another person's emotional response with outside meta bullshit. Those aspects can certainly inform a take, but going "you shouldn't be sad, none of those characters would ever have appeared again, therefore it is exactly the same as erasing them from existence, beep boop" is ridiculous. Again: Arist posted:I feel like I'm talking to robots. Like, just loving say "I think it is a necessarily invalid reaction to not like the ending of Part 6 because you was disappointed in the way the universe was rewritten and every character's lives changed so the previous events of the series did not take place."
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Feb 9, 2019 20:15
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 This is from after the first universe cycle, there's nothing to indicate that that guard and those prisoners are not the same people they were before, they also lost their clothes just like Emporio did. The guard remembers time speeding up.   e: 
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Feb 9, 2019 20:20
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Parts 1-6 all still happened, though. Yes, they happened in a different universe to ones we see in What A Wonderful World and SBR/JJL, but that does not mean that they didn't magically not happen anymore. That's where the disconnect is. Things don't retroactively stop existing and having an impact when they end.Momomo posted:If you wanna go that route then part 3 literally could not have happened because Jotaro was killed by Pucci. And from there everything else falls apart. I don't think the other parts happened in the new world, but it doesn't really matter since they already happened in the past parts. This sums it up perfectly.
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Feb 9, 2019 20:21
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Olive! posted:
That's not what we're talking about. In the first reset people all the same things happened and people who weren't killed by Made in Heaven came back in the same forms. After Emporio killed Pucci the universe reset again, for real. That's what we're talking about. Also, trusting that Pucci's words about the people Made in Heaven killed not being able to move on to the next universe apply to the second reset kind of destroys any possible happy reading of that ending because Irene and all the other people Emporio meets up with aren't actually Jolyne and the others' spirits, except maybe Weather.
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Feb 9, 2019 20:24
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This thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zFOdQYmTrk
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Feb 9, 2019 20:24
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Arist posted:That's not what we're talking about. In the first reset people all the same things happened and people who weren't killed by Made in Heaven came back in the same forms. After Emporio killed Pucci the universe reset again, for real. That's what we're talking about. And you're suggesting that it worked completely differently the second time around?
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Feb 9, 2019 20:26
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Olive! posted:And you're suggesting that it worked completely differently the second time around? That is what the implication of Irene's Joestar birthmark is, yes. If you read the second half of the post you quoted, I also gave another justification. Like, holy poo poo, guys. These are some mild-rear end, cold-as-poo poo takes I am offering here. The wolves really should not be descending when people dare to suggest that someone could hypothetically have a valid reason not to feel the same way about a specific facet of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure as you. Arist posted:Like, just loving say "I think it is a necessarily invalid reaction to not like the ending of Part 6 because you was disappointed in the way the universe was rewritten and every character's lives changed so the previous events of the series did not take place." Just say if you believe this or not. If you don't, then that's all I wanted in the first place. If you do, we legitimately have nothing more to talk about.
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Feb 9, 2019 20:32
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Arist posted:Like, holy poo poo, guys. These are some mild-rear end, cold-as-poo poo takes I am offering here. The wolves really should not be descending when people dare to suggest that someone could hypothetically have a valid reason not to feel the same way about a specific facet of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure as you. I haven't seen anyone being hostile in this thread other than you. e: in this particular discussion, rather
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Feb 9, 2019 20:34
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Olive! posted:And you're suggesting that it worked completely differently the second time around? when pucci was backed into a corner by Emporio using Weather Report, he was panicking and said that if he dies and Made in Heaven is destroyed before time can loop all the way back to the events at Cape Canaveral, then fate will be altered. so yeah, it explicitly worked differently the second time
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Feb 9, 2019 20:43
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Olive! posted:I haven't seen anyone being hostile in this thread other than you. yeah at this point it's like ghiaccio yelling at a group of people or some poo poo
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Feb 9, 2019 20:46
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Everything happened the same only Annakiss isn't an awful person, Weather doesn't have Pucci to gently caress up his life, Ermes has a suitcase full of cash money, Irene seemingly has a good relationship with her father, and Emporio no longer lives in a prison trash can. 100% Complete Golden Ending
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Feb 9, 2019 20:53
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Olive! posted:I haven't seen anyone being hostile in this thread other than you. Even if they were being "polite," the general tone of having like twelve posters swarm to inform me of my ignorance of basic story structure as if I am a child is not not hostile. You guys are just dancing around the issue and giving really absurd and roundabout explanations for why the most obvious, simple explanation of the end either isn't correct or is the result of a flawed mindset. I just want people to acknowledge that being disappointed by the ending is perhaps valid. That maybe someone could have a different opinion here than you. I'm getting frustrated here because people are refusing to even acknowledge that I'm asking that, and instead giving patronizing explanations of how the only possible reasoning for that reaction is a wholly flawed viewpoint on stories in general. Really can't wait until the Part 5 anime ends and I say GER sucks and like eighty people leap up my rear end.
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Feb 9, 2019 20:53
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Arist posted:twelve posters swarm to inform me of my ignorance of basic story structure as if I am a child gently caress, dude. You gave one perspective, and a lot of us do not interpret the story the same way. Get over yourself. Arist posted:the most obvious, simple explanation of the end People are disagreeing with this because your explanation is not, by default, the most obvious and simple explanation. It's a very strange ending and a lot of things are left up to interpretation. Olive! fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 20:56
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Arist posted:The reason it's a bad way to look at stories is because you're actively working to deny the legitimacy of another person's emotional response with outside meta bullshit. Those aspects can certainly inform a take, but going "you shouldn't be sad, none of those characters would ever have appeared again, therefore it is exactly the same as erasing them from existence, beep boop" is ridiculous. I have not denied anyone's emotional legitimacy. I'm disagreeing with an understanding of how fictional works relate to one another. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 20:58
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Arist posted:Even if they were being "polite," the general tone of having like twelve posters swarm to inform me of my ignorance of basic story structure as if I am a child is not not hostile. I think you should make like Ghiacchio and chill out.
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Feb 9, 2019 21:00
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calm your tits dude Was there any “Araki said” about the part 6 ending because I don’t remember anything that suggests the previous parts didn’t happen at all in some form in the new universe. Jotaro and Jolyne are replaced but I never heard anything about the other Joestars or even Dio.
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Feb 9, 2019 21:07
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Kaiser Mazoku posted:chill out
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Feb 9, 2019 21:09
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regardless if someone is overacting (and i dont think they are), telling the upset person to Chill Out and Calm Down, is like, classic bullying and gaslighting technique, don't do that folks
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Feb 9, 2019 21:12
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Please, I am begging you guys. The mechanics of the ending of part 6 are not and were never the issue here. The root of all this bullshit from the very beginning was a question I have now posed at least three times, and that people seem so reluctant to actually answer that it almost feels like you're gaslighting me: "Can disappointment with this ending be valid?" I'm not trying to trick you into admitting you don't like it. I'm just trying to get you to say that other people are allowed to feel differently without it signifying some larger deficiency in how they consume and interpret stories. I just want you to consider a different perspective. This should be the least controversial thing in the world. I'm not trying to start poo poo, I'm not here to insult you. Just give me a straight answer. Please.
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Feb 9, 2019 21:16
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Arist posted:Please, I am begging you guys. Yes.
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Feb 9, 2019 21:17
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That's legitimately all I wanted, thank you.
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Feb 9, 2019 21:18
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