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Darth Walrus posted:Again, we have independent verification that this company was rapidly transferring... something... out of a major US airport to Colombia and Venezuela while concealing its employer and having people who'd previously done work for the CIA on its payroll. Sometimes, the stupid, nonsensical answer is the correct one. https://twitter.com/steffanwatkins/status/1094336895146971142?s=19
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Feb 10, 2019 17:04
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brugroffil posted:What does any of this have to do with anything being discussed It's the Venezuela thread. Not the United States thread.
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Feb 10, 2019 17:13
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That doesn't answer any of what I was saying in that post, though?
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Feb 10, 2019 17:30
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That's what I meant about shitposting. This is a good point and it's a link no one else has shared, but drat man, at least include the Tweet in an image or preview it or give a summary of what you're linking if you're not quoting another post or something that would give context as to what you're linking. But anyway yeah, that's a good parallel: Cuba was offering token aid to the US to score a political win, and the US declined it for totally stupid reasons. Cuba obviously didn't care about the victims of Katrina and was doing it to show how benevolent and stable and great their country is, and it's also weird that the US rejected the token aid as a gesture of goodwill. Saladman fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Feb 10, 2019 |
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Feb 10, 2019 17:55
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Saladman posted:But anyway yeah, that's a good parallel: Cuba was offering token aid to the US to score a political win, and the US declined it for totally stupid reasons. Cuba obviously didn't care about the victims of Katrina and was doing it to show how benevolent and stable and great their country is, and it's also weird that the US rejected the token aid as a gesture of goodwill. Why do you claim it would be a token gesture? Because they are Cuban?
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Feb 10, 2019 18:39
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Discendo Vox posted:It's the Venezuela thread. Not the United States thread. Yeah but he quoted a post talking about Abrams and arming contras
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Feb 10, 2019 19:08
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Saladman posted:That's what I meant about shitposting. This is a good point and it's a link no one else has shared, but drat man, at least include the Tweet in an image or preview it or give a summary of what you're linking if you're not quoting another post or something that would give context as to what you're linking. Besides, I'm not sure comparing Maduro's actions to Trump's and Bush's petulant nonsense is the win some people seem to think it is. When Bush mishandled Katrina and Trump mishandled the disaster in Puerto Rico, those were both awful things. Saying it's okay for Maduro to do those things because Trump and Bush also did them is the tu quoque fallacy, or "and you are lynching negros" updated for the modern age.
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Feb 10, 2019 19:23
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The point here is that trump admin should shut the gently caress up and stay out of venezuela, because they somehow manage to do everything except stealing people's money worse than maduro Nobody is saying that what maduro's doing isn't bad. Truga fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Feb 10, 2019 |
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Feb 10, 2019 19:29
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Truga posted:The point here is that trump admin should shut the gently caress up and stay out of venezuela, because they somehow manage to do everything except stealing people's money worse than maduro There are quite a few people trying to minimize the PSUV's crimes though and to discredit any Venezuelan opposition to them. For example, several posters have repeatedly said that Maduro's re-election was legitimate and that he enjoys the support of a majority of Venezuelans.
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Feb 10, 2019 19:45
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I find it incredibly lolworthy that everyone doesn't just ignore those two posters.
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Feb 10, 2019 19:50
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brugroffil posted:What does any of this have to do with anything being discussed Well, this *is* the Venezuela thread, not *actually* the US-is-horrible thread. So it is: (1) on topic, and (2) clear most new posters know next to nothing about the situation in Venezuela generally, so useful information.
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Feb 10, 2019 19:56
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Truga posted:I find it incredibly lolworthy that everyone doesn't just ignore those two posters. Because they keep showing up under different names, parachuting in from {CSPAM, USPOL, UKMT}. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 10, 2019 19:59
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Spacedad posted:Has this been posted yet? I think the presenter is trying to be honest and direct, and it has a lot of good information. However it also has uneven rigor and strange omissions. The most glaring problem with his narrative is that he skips from 2013 to 2018, completely ignoring the 2015 National Assembly elections. This is rather significant because it is in the aftermath of PSUV defeat in those elections that constitutional disputes begin to arise, and most of the justification for subsequent sanctions come from the alleged actions of Maduro and his administration follow from those issues.
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Feb 10, 2019 20:04
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It's an embarrassing knee-jerk reaction to think anyone who calls out the US (and the current administration in particular) for being imperialist grifters is a tankie. Almost understandable but still ridiculous.
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Feb 10, 2019 20:10
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The rifles don't have iron sights because they're carbines that don't come with them welded on (like M16s for example), not sure why you'd think whoever they were going to wouldn't have guns/optics already, and if not you can literally make an iron sight in ten minutes if you have access to YouTube and basic welding equipment
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Feb 10, 2019 20:21
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An iron sight is literally a little piece of metal with a white dots painted in the center at the end of your rifle.
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Feb 10, 2019 20:22
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PT6A posted:Besides, I'm not sure comparing Maduro's actions to Trump's and Bush's petulant nonsense is the win some people seem to think it is. The United States declining aid from Cuba also isn't being used as justification for recognizing Nancy Pelosi as the legitimate president, or building up a case for sanctioning and attacking the United States. Saying this is tu quoque doesn't invalidate the point, when the point is that the United States has no humanitarian interest in the crisis. We're intentionally destabilizing Venezuela because we want the oil.
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Feb 10, 2019 20:25
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The United States declining aid from Cuba also isn't being used as justification for recognizing Nancy Pelosi as the legitimate president, or building up a case for sanctioning and attacking the United States. Saying this is tu quoque doesn't invalidate the point, when the point is that the United States has no humanitarian interest in the crisis. We're intentionally destabilizing Venezuela because we want the oil. The Raytheon/defense industry stock also doesn't quite jump unless the Venezuelan military's Russian stocks are depleted in a civil war and require replacement from American defense corporations, and their new officer corps and personnel to require training.
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Feb 10, 2019 20:47
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Rust Martialis posted:Well, this *is* the Venezuela thread, not *actually* the US-is-horrible thread. So it is: Yes it's on topic for the thread but seemed completely disconnected from the post it was responding to/quoted?
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Feb 10, 2019 21:17
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PT6A posted:Besides, I'm not sure comparing Maduro's actions to Trump's and Bush's petulant nonsense is the win some people seem to think it is. The point is not that what Maduro's doing is OK by proxy because the US also rejects politically-motivated aid, the point is that Pompeo is a lying shitbag who is pretending to want to give aid out of a desire to score political points and there was never any serious intent for any aid to go through Cucuta or elsewhere (at least while Maduro is in power). Maduro is also a giant shitbag who is starving his own people, but Pompeo was never going to send a single truck of food to Venezuela. I certainly believe there is food in warehouses in Cucuta, but I seriously doubt that anyone senior n the US government ever intended for it to go to needy Venezuelans. It's like "Oh I'd love to give money to help needy Venezuelans... but Caritas is run by the Catholic church and I don't like the Catholic church because they're corrupt kiddy diddlers". This is just virtue signaling for people who are "so willing to donate to a good cause" but since their poo poo doesn't stink, they can't donate to that charity. Oh and and please don't link other charities because they will all have something wrong with them even though they'd love just so much to donate to the cause. Pompeo and the aid in Cucuta is the same, but at a grander political scale. Saladman fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Feb 10, 2019 |
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Feb 10, 2019 21:33
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The aid thing is a PR stunt. It's the trump admin's 'WMDs in iraq' for taking action on venezuela, to get dems and liberals to go along with their bullshit. The red cross and UN both told the US specifically to not do this PR stunt, but they did it anyway. The amount of aid being supplied was also miniscule, and the bridge they used for the photo ops wasn't even open. This poo poo is blatant and sloppy even compared to the WMDs in iraq BS, and it's a travesty that the US mainstream media and most of the dems are going along with it. But not surprising as it's literally what they did last time for our other interventions in the middle east. This poo poo is why progressives are frustrated with and think most of the establishment dems are bloodthirsty monsters as bad as republicans.
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Feb 10, 2019 22:15
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Calling the aid a PR stunt is underselling it, imo. Right now Guaido and Maduro are competing for control over Venezuela's civil institutions. Both are making the argument that they are the legitimate authority, with the right to make decisions, issue orders and set policy. When Guaido says bring in the aid, he is asserting his right to exercise power. This puts Maduro into a no win situation. Turning back aid makes him look bad, while accepting it makes him look like he is caving, that he is no longer able to control Venezuelan policy. The US is now trying to force the Venezuelan state to pick sides in this conflict, and giving them heavy incentives to pick Guaido. The US is trying to force Maduro into situations where in order to assert his power as head of state, he must take unpopular decision that will further undermine his remaining popular support.
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Feb 10, 2019 22:34
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Spacedad posted:
They did not in fact, specifically say not to send aid. The UN said not to do it as PR, the red cross said not to do it without the approval of Maduro and his "security forces". The issue here continues to be that the government of Venezuela is denying aid into the country from any source. If your issue is that people might use this to advance their political cause I think that says a hell of a lot more about you.
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Feb 10, 2019 22:36
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I said the UN and red cross both told the US specifically to not do this PR stunt. I meant the PR stunt. I said nothing about aid that would be approved by Maduro. Trying to ship in aid they know will be turned away is a PR stunt. The UN and red cross both told the US not to do this. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Feb 10, 2019 |
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Feb 10, 2019 22:48
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Ace of Baes posted:The rifles don't have iron sights because they're carbines that don't come with them welded on (like M16s for example), not sure why you'd think whoever they were going to wouldn't have guns/optics already, and if not you can literally make an iron sight in ten minutes if you have access to YouTube and basic welding equipment Because as I said before and for the last 4 years has been a thing. The opposition doesnt have access to any of this because most if the guns are controlled by gangs loyal to the regimes sanctioned drug trade. Or in the hands of the security forces. The main population has ZERO access to firearms. But youve acknowledged great point. Why send rifles with optics if you know the people that already have them? The rifles are from government stockpiles they have no optices Optics are very difficult to ship out of the US. However rifles like this are proliferated in most of the rest of the world. Not as much as AKs but enough to be purchasable by governments not aligned with the US. he government threw down a bunch of newly bought rifles, a few long range optics on a table and said "this is the CIA 100%". Theyve done this for years. Let me say this again if this CIA wanted to arm the opposition they wouldnt be sending m4s missing barrels and optics. They woupd be either AKs with irons or we sould have seen some red dot sites at least. Why in the gently caress would the CIA provide rifles that cost between 2000 and 5000 dollars to actually get there. Just to have them be used with welded ghetto sights? Maduros people have been arresting the opposition for carrying literal pounds of plastic explosives on their body, and its bullshit. If the narrative the pro madurists here are saying is that the richest evilest country on the world us is attempting a loving coup with their shadow army who want to destroy the maduro regime thrn why are they making mistakes like this? Its utter bullshit. Its another distraction that deflects from the venezuelan holodomor occuring.
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Feb 10, 2019 23:01
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Abby Martin thought Bush did 9/11 for years, but I'm sure she's got this story about shadowy internal enemies 100% correct.
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Feb 11, 2019 00:46
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Its utterly astounding to me that at this point in time, with all the history and information at our finger tips, that there is a soul on this earth who genuinely trusts and supports what the US government says and does about coups in latin america. Even Charlie Brown would shake his head at anyone falling for the same thing again.
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Feb 11, 2019 01:03
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Planting weapons and explosives is the PSUVs M/O for arresting/imprisoning political enemies so it wouldn't be a shock to imagine they came across a drug smuggling plane and planted weapons to claim the CIA is smuggling weapons in. Course it's pretty likely the CIA has been smuggling weapons in small amounts as well.
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Feb 11, 2019 01:03
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I'm sure 40 flights amount to a "small amount".
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Feb 11, 2019 01:04
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Lambert posted:I'm sure 40 flights amount to a "small amount". There is no confirmation from anyone but the PSUV-controlled Venezuelan state media that those weapons were actually on the plane in the first place.
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Feb 11, 2019 03:55
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Maduros people have been arresting the opposition for carrying literal pounds of plastic explosives on their body, and its bullshit. If the narrative the pro madurists here are saying is that the richest evilest country on the world us is attempting a loving coup with their shadow army who want to destroy the maduro regime thrn why are they making mistakes like this? Its utter bullshit. Its another distraction that deflects from the venezuelan holodomor occuring. Venezuela was already in trouble before the US & its allies put further sanctions on their oil, making a bad problem many times worse. If the US really cared about averting the suffering of the Venezuelan people they could lift those sanctions. But they don't. Getting people to suffer is the point. This is about starving out and turning people against a regime they want to change so they can loot the country's natural resources. The same anti-humanitarian poo poo they've pulled in south/central america (and the middle east for that matter) over and over again. Pedro De Heredia posted:Abby Martin thought Bush did 9/11 for years, but I'm sure she's got this story about shadowy internal enemies 100% correct. She didn't write the democracy now article she linked. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 04:24
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Compared to 10 million people starving is this really a worthy comparison?
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Feb 11, 2019 04:24
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Compared to 10 million people starving is this really a worthy comparison? Absolutely. It was awful when the US was doing it, and given the scale of the crisis in Venezuela what's going on is far worse. The people who think that "well two of the worst presidents in US history did similar things on a smaller scale" is a compelling argument clearly have their heads up their arse. gently caress Trump and gently caress W too, they are and were poo poo, respectively, and Trump too should resign for the good of his country and join Maduro in exile in some autocratic shithole to avoid justice for his crimes. Does anyone actually think anyone supporting aid to Venezuela is somehow pleased by Trump's handling of the disaster in Puerto Rico?
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Feb 11, 2019 04:44
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Compared to 10 million people starving is this really a worthy comparison? The country that's imposing sanctions with its allies on an already-suffering country to starve its people and institutions out in preparation for an apparent coup is sending them sketchy 'aid' they know will be turned away. That's extremely hosed up. And that's even before we get to the fact that it's Elliot 'contra death squad arms smuggled in aid packages' Abrams is the guy organizing the aid.
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Feb 11, 2019 05:17
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Spacedad posted:Venezuela was already in trouble before the US & its allies put further sanctions on their oil, making a bad problem many times worse. If the US really cared about averting the suffering of the Venezuelan people they could lift those sanctions. But they don't. Getting people to suffer is the point. This is about starving out and turning people against a regime they want to change They are already starving. Theres a very real possibility the sanctions are going to cause less net harm because it could lead to less years that Maduro remains in power as a dictator.
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Feb 11, 2019 05:21
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zapplez posted:They are already starving. Theres a very real possibility the sanctions are going to cause less net harm because it could lead to less years that Maduro remains in power as a dictator. The problems originally caused by the lowered price of oil have been exacerbated by Trump's sanctions in august 2017 that caused a massive decline in oil production in Venezuela, compared to Columbia's production.  The sanctions have cost venezuela around 6 billion dollars - roughly 5% of its GDP. More on that and other issues in detail is in the video I posted in earlier. Point being - the US is making a country experiencing major problems profoundly worse. And invoking the millions of suffering Venezuelans in the face of this is crocodile tears. So if you really do care about the Venezuelan people, demand the US remove its sanctions. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 05:32
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Spacedad posted:The problems originally caused by the lowered price of oil have been exacerbated by Trump's sanctions in august 2017 that caused a massive decline in oil production in Venezuela, compared to Columbia's production. Maduro has done a lot more than 5% to it his own people. But yeah, lets keep this crazy fat gently caress in charge.
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Feb 11, 2019 05:35
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Spacedad posted:The problems originally caused by the lowered price of oil have been exacerbated by Trump's sanctions in august 2017 that caused a massive decline in oil production in Venezuela, compared to Columbia's production. The problem is there is a disconnect between Venezuelan oil production and the welfare of the Venezuelan people. The people were already starving when the sanctions went into effect, despite oil production being "normal" according to that chart.
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Feb 11, 2019 05:36
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Do you guys really thing the money lost from sanctining oil was going to the people of venezuela. It was going to be stolen for maduro and his goons regardless of the sanctions. All the money is leaving the country in the hand of the socialist government officials
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Feb 11, 2019 05:41
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zapplez posted:Maduro has done a lot more than 5% to it his own people. But yeah, lets keep this crazy fat gently caress in charge. The chart is for a period when oil prices were low - we already know the country was suffering in that period, along with the various other problems caused through internal incompetence, corruption and hyperinflation. However, the argument here is about the fact that the US is actively and deliberately deepening the suffering of millions of already-suffering people. Which in turn makes the aid stunt they pulled of sending aid they know would be turned away even more of a morally reprehensible act. If you aren't going to refute that, well all right then. WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Do you guys really thing the money lost from sanctining oil was going to the people of venezuela. It was going to be stolen for maduro and his goons regardless of the sanctions. All the money is leaving the country in the hand of the socialist government officials If you think he's corrupt (and he is) wait'll you find out what the US-appointed 'president' has in mind for the nation's oil reserves. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 05:42
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