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colachute posted:If someone gets out of prison and commits another crime and goes back to prison, how does that indicate that prison is not a deterrent for that individual? 100% wouldn't indicate that, specific deterrence and general deterrence are two entirely different things.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:38
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LingcodKilla posted:This is a great example actually. That idiot makes a ton of money from his music then commits violent crimes for fun. He’s the exact kind of person who should be locked up for life to protect society. a great example of what? He is facing life in prison and the threat of jail obviously did not deter his crimes even though he had a ton to lose. If anything it speaks to how little prison sentences serve to deter crime.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:38
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Jarmak posted:100% wouldn't indicate that, specific deterrence and general deterrence are two entirely different things. So you’re arguing that it... isn’t a deterrence? Or that it is? Or it is/isn’t based on how you want to argue it at any given moment?
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Feb 11, 2019 20:39
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Chichevache posted:Pretty sure consequences like losing your freedom still deters crime. It may not increase deterrence when the sentence is increased, but prison itself is still a deterrent. This is not a thing you can be “pretty sure” about based on your gut feelings because human behavior is counterintuitive and contradictory.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:45
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LingcodKilla posted:Taxation is theft! I need to get paid somehow, citizen. Why did I just get an email telling me that I used to have pocket commission? I don't ever remember having to present evidence of my authority in performance of my official duties....or are they talking about my admin accounts?
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Feb 11, 2019 20:45
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Also people largely age out of violent crime by their mid-thirties or so. Probably would be even more true if having a felony conviction wasn't a sentence to work lovely minimum wage jobs for the rest of your life in a lot of the country.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:46
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Kawasaki Nun posted:a great example of what? He is facing life in prison and the threat of jail obviously did not deter his crimes even though he had a ton to lose. If anything it speaks to how little prison sentences serve to deter crime. Oh no the guy with poor impulse control won’t be around to hurt more people. You can’t fix everyone.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:46
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LingcodKilla posted:Oh no the guy with poor impulse control won’t be around to hurt more people. Hey we finally have determined your actual position with respect to criminal justice reform and the efficacy of deterrence.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:49
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colachute posted:So you’re arguing that it... isn’t a deterrence? Or that it is? Or it is/isn’t based on how you want to argue it at any given moment? What are you even talking about, those are sociological terms with specific meanings that if you had spent more than 30 seconds doing any research or reading on the subject you should recognize. Quella surprise that you haven't. Deterring the general population from committing crimes in the first place is called "general deterrence". In the context of prisons it's the effect prisons have as a deterrent by making people afraid to commit crimes because they're afraid to go to prison. Deterring a specific individual who been convicted of a crime from committing more crimes is called "specific deterrence". In this context it's the deterrent effect going to prison has on the sentenced individual as far as them committing future crimes. They are very different things and look at two very different problems so much so that they are almost entirely different disciplines of study in their own right.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:50
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facialimpediment posted:https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1095028946582859777?s=19 Good reminder that entrenched Democratic leadership still sucks poo poo
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Feb 11, 2019 20:52
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its like the GEO Group board is posting here
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Feb 11, 2019 20:52
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https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/1095046561254567937?s=19 Good statement
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Feb 11, 2019 20:54
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Jarmak posted:What are you even talking about, those are sociological terms with specific meanings that if you had spent more than 30 seconds doing any research or reading on the subject you should recognize. If “specific deterrence” has such a high rate of failure, then it seems like it is a more general issue than a specific one.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:54
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colachute posted:If “specific deterrence” has such a high rate of failure, then it seems like it is a more general issue than a specific one. This is about as dumb as saying that global warming isn't real because it's snowing outside. edit: metaphor isn't perfect but the taking pride in making smug dismissive statements of a field of study without bothering to learn even the basics fits perfectly. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 20:57
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drat good statement.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:01
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Eej posted:Good reminder that entrenched Democratic leadership still sucks poo poo
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Feb 11, 2019 21:03
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facialimpediment posted:https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1095028946582859777?s=19 how nauseatingly predictable
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Feb 11, 2019 21:04
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Chichevache posted:Pretty sure consequences like losing your freedom still deters crime. It may not increase deterrence when the sentence is increased, but prison itself is still a deterrent. If I take you at your word: we all do commit crimes all the time, when we believe we won't face consequences for them, except of course different groups are more exposed to those consequences (a broken tail-light doesn't mean much, unless it's used to justify a stop that gets someone deported, robbed, or killed). But I suspect a lot of us in this thread don't really consider how to push the envelope, try to avoid more consequences, and try to make a living off of committing crimes, because we have jobs and friends and family we'd be risking, we don't really know how to make a consistent living illegally, and because we were raised to believe that good people don't crime for a living. But hey, as it happens, you can get new friends and "family" in prison, and they could teach you how to do better next time, and some of them are pretty impressive people with their own code of ethics which you would find a lot more practical in your new life after release as a second-class citizen. Remember, job and housing discrimination is legal against felons, so the combined effect of prison is to place people who go to it in a permanent underclass ripe for being exploited by both legal and illegal businesses. Yes I have read The New Jim Crow and yes I am at risk of telling everyone about how woke I am now.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:05
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Jarmak posted:This is about as dumb as saying that global warming isn't real because it's snowing outside. You think prison works as a deterrence on a general level. That’s cool man. I don’t think it works as a deterrence on a general level. There are people who don’t commit crimes because they don’t want to face the consequences, including prison. But the people who are committing crimes, who fall into the general “criminal” category, seem to not care based on the rate of rearrest. The people who have literally been there are not deterred from committing crimes. Maybe we are talking past each other, so let me rephrase my point by asking you a question: why does the third most populated country on earth with the highest rate of incarcerated individuals (a problem with individuals, obviously) also have such a high rate of rearrest? Logically, third highest world population and highest incarceration rate means prison is a general deterrent to you? colachute fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 21:06
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In any system of laws, when a crime is committed you're going to have to answer the following questions: -Who was wronged by the crime? Who has the authority to seek justice? -Who will investigate the crime? What rights shall the accused have to prevent misconduct? -Who shall judge the results of the investigation? Who sets the punishment should the accused be found guilty? What rights does the accused have to argue their innocence? -How shall the guilty be punished? What rights do the guilty still possess, and what will be taken away? -Should imprisonment be decided upon as a punishment, who is responsible for the prisoner? Is the goal to punish the prisoner by keeping them away from society, or to protect society by keeping the prisoner away from it? -What is the desired end result of the punishment? To educate and reform the guilty so that they will commit no further crimes, or to make the punishment severe enough that they will be deterred from committing future crimes? Focusing only on the deterrent value of prisons is missing the forest for the trees, as it is an immensely complex issue with a whole number of underlying philosophical and practical questions, and looking at recidivism rates is hardly an answer into and of itself.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:07
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Jarmak posted:This is about as dumb as saying that global warming isn't real because it's snowing outside. Speaking of books, you said this is your field of study? Is there an author I should look for if I want to be unignorant?
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Feb 11, 2019 21:09
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colachute posted:You think prison works as a deterrence on a general level. That’s cool man. I don’t think it works as a deterrence on a general level. There are people who don’t commit crimes because they don’t want to face the consequences, including prison. But the people who are committing crimes, who fall into the general “criminal” category, seem to not care based on the rate of rearrest. The people who have literally been there are not deterred from committing crimes. So what should we do with people who can't or won't stop criming while your utopia is still getting off the ground? None of us in this thread disagree with the idea of creating better safety nets, improving education, justice reform, improved housing, and all the other awesome AOC buzz words that go along with being woke. But while we wait for that awesome reality to come around, what should we do with these people? P.s. the bold part is literally you giving an example of the general deterrence you just denied in the previous sentence.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:13
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Chichevache posted:So what should we do with people who can't or won't stop criming while your utopia is still getting off the ground? None of us in this thread disagree with the idea of creating better safety nets, improving education, justice reform, improved housing, and all the other awesome AOC buzz words that go along with being woke. But while we wait for that awesome reality to come around, what should we do with these people? I don’t have the answer. If I had the answer to that I would probably be talking to someone who may be able to do something about it, not essentially into the void of gip. But saying prison is a deterrent is kind of usurped by the fact that we have such a high incarceration and rearrest rate. Even if you cut our incarcerstion rate in half it would still be astronomical. That’s not a specific issue just because you’re able to find specific examples.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:20
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colachute posted:You think prison works as a deterrence on a general level. That’s cool man. I don’t think it works as a deterrence on a general level. There are people who don’t commit crimes because they don’t want to face the consequences, including prison. But the people who are committing crimes, who fall into the general “criminal” category, seem to not care based on the rate of rearrest. The people who have literally been there are not deterred from committing crimes. I'd think about it this way: There is a deterrence value to any punishment, because of course outside of extraordinary circumstances nobody likes to be punished. From a literal slap on the wrist to the death penalty, there's a deterrent. Instead, the question is more akin to gambling—does the potential risk of being caught, prosecuted, and sent to prison for a given value of time (The deterrent) outweigh the potential benefits? And more importantly, is the person making this decision capable of fairly rationalizing the risk and the reward? In the United States, you could easily argue that part of the reason why rearrests are so high is not because that prison doesn't serve as an effective deterrent (Because every society has prisons), but instead that because the system is so focused on punishment instead of rehabilitation, and because the social stigma of having been a prisoner is so high, that the deterrent value is severely lessened due to the lack of non-criminal opportunities—not to mention the general lack of resources available to the poor to avoid being found guilty for crimes in the face of malicious law enforcement and prosecution. The system desperately needs reforming, and prisons are a part of it, but imo the actual deterrent value of prisons is extremely low on the list of topics that should be addressed, as opposed to much greater problems as the war on drugs, the use of fines and imprisonment to fund towns and cities, the horrific erosion of the public defender system, etc.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:21
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Just to chum the waters a bit, I'd like to point out our current system is horrifically broken and ineffective at deterring white collar and financial crimes. Past a certain point of wealth it literally becomes a cost of doing business, a no-poo poo line item in the budget written ahead of time accepting that a minor amount of profit will be diverted towards paying off our "judicial" system.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:40
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bird food bathtub posted:Just to chum the waters a bit, I'd like to point out our current system is horrifically broken and ineffective at deterring white collar and financial crimes. Past a certain point of wealth it literally becomes a cost of doing business, a no-poo poo line item in the budget written ahead of time accepting that a minor amount of profit will be diverted towards paying off our "judicial" system. Yeah, but prison only deters if people go to prison. I think we can all get behind "send more bankers to prison". colachute posted:I don’t have the answer. If I had the answer to that I would probably be talking to someone who may be able to do something about it, not essentially into the void of gip. But saying prison is a deterrent is kind of usurped by the fact that we have such a high incarceration and rearrest rate. Even if you cut our incarcerstion rate in half it would still be astronomical. That’s not a specific issue just because you’re able to find specific examples. Ok. So in the meantime we just let all of them loose because while prison deters, it doesn't deter at a rate that you find acceptable?
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Feb 11, 2019 21:44
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colachute posted:You think prison works as a deterrence on a general level. That’s cool man. I don’t think it works as a deterrence on a general level. I don't "think" it deters crime on a general level anymore more than I "think" (to reuse my simile) the climate is changing. I'm not just sitting around throwing poo poo out from my gut, this has been studied to loving death since Lombroso's days in the 19th century. colachute posted:There are people who don’t commit crimes because they don’t want to face the consequences, including prison. But the people who are committing crimes, who fall into the general “criminal” category, seem to not care based on the rate of rearrest. The people who have literally been there are not deterred from committing crimes. This is flat out not even what these terms mean. Furthermore that first sentence is literally "I know prisons are an effective general deterrent". You are literally doing the conservative thing where you take an entire mature field of academia and throw it out the window because you took a few facts in isolation, some poorly understood terms of art that you're applying a general layman's definition to, and then decided you know better because of your intuitive gut feelings when you mash the two together. High rates of rearrest don't even necessarily indicate poor specific deterrence. There's an entire of subset of specific deterrence called "incapacitation" which addresses the concept that a convicted criminal is prevented from committing future crimes if they are locked up, it's what the mass incarceration philosophy is based off of. In this vein despite it being now a pretty clear cut consensus that the death penalty has no significant value as a general deterrent it's the best (as in most effective, not holistically better when things like morality and social cost are accounted for) specific deterrent there is. That said I'm not trying to say prisons are a good specific deterrent (at least when operated within humane and moral limits, technically if you lock people up forever it's very effective at that), just highlighting how much you're talking out your rear end. colachute posted:Maybe we are talking past each other, so let me rephrase my point by asking you a question: why does the third most populated country on earth with the country with the highest rate of incarcerated individuals (a problem with individuals, obviously) also have such a high rate of rearrest? The underlying question you're posing is massively complex and people spend their entire lives studying just pieces of it, I have neither the time, inclination, nor ability to give a comprehensive answer to it in a forum post. I can however tell you it's not "something awful forums poster colachute thought about it for a few minutes on the shitter and we can wrap up several entire disciplines of sociology and criminology because it's "general deterrence isn't real".
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Feb 11, 2019 21:46
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Casimir Radon posted:To be fair most Americans are too stupid understand that Israel are trailing close behind Saudi for the shittiest allies we have. Israel is a ally? How long has that been going on?
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Feb 11, 2019 21:52
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BigDave posted:Israel is a ally? How long has that been going on? They're long overdue for some spies being caught or sinking a USN ship.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:54
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hobbesmaster posted:They're long overdue for some spies being caught or sinking a USN ship. That's what I'm saying, if they're an ally of the US, they sure don't act like it.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:57
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From my FB chud feed: 
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Feb 11, 2019 21:59
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Doc Hawkins posted:Speaking of books, you said this is your field of study? Is there an author I should look for if I want to be unignorant? It's not my field of study I was a political science major who became a sociology minor who became a criminal justice minor and picked up a bunch of courses in things like courts and sentencing, sociology of crime, criminal deviance, criminology, and a bunch of stuff with perphrial applicability like general sociology, criminal justice etc. This really isn't advanced stuff I'm talking about and I would by no means consider myself an expert, I haven't said anything that wouldn't be covered in a intro to CJ class or a intro level sociology class that covered crime and deterrence. I'd have to do some deep diving to find book recommendations beyond some of the textbooks on the shelf behind me but I did stumble across a working draft of a literature review which appears to be intended for a textbook and it seems like a pretty good primer after a quick scan. I think it does refer to at least one study that without doing research on it appears to be outdated to me, but as far as a description of the problems the field is attempting to find answers to it seems pretty good (I just don't make any endorsements of conclusory statements and it's from European sources which I'm not overly familiar with). https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00834005/document
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Feb 11, 2019 22:05
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Criminology/social deviance/etc. was never my focus. Sociology is a broad as gently caress field, yo. I still toy with the idea of getting my PhD though.
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Feb 11, 2019 22:06
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Vasudus posted:Criminology/social deviance/etc. was never my focus. For me it's vestigial education from an aborted career path. Sociology and law loving fascinated me as a kid (still does) because of the idea of examining social conflict/problems from an empirical instead of moral framework. edit: to be clear when I say "instead of moral" I'm talking about things like theories of criminal deviance versus "people do crimes because they are bad people", not "morality (or perhaps more accurately social justice) isn't an important outcome." Jarmak fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 22:15
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Seriousbreak - Have some Denver Teachers' Strike picket line protest signs. https://twitter.com/MelanieAsmar/status/1095064349045968896?s=19 https://twitter.com/MelanieAsmar/status/1095064544647364608?s=19
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Feb 11, 2019 22:18
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wait wasnt all that weed money going to education
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Feb 11, 2019 22:19
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Nostalgia4Butts posted:wait wasnt all that weed money going to education Doesn't mean that it was going to the teachers' paychecks.
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Feb 11, 2019 22:20
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It has been a neat few pages but let's get back to the news. Open a thread to continue discussion.
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Feb 11, 2019 22:22
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quote:For the third time this month, Cohen's scheduled congressional testimony has been delayed, as his attorney said Monday that Cohen's Senate Intelligence Committee appearance this week had been pushed back. hmm
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Feb 11, 2019 22:22
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facialimpediment posted:Seriousbreak - Have some Denver Teachers' Strike picket line protest signs. What the gently caress are y'all spending the weed money on? You sure as poo poo ain't spending it on the roads.
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Feb 11, 2019 22:38
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