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Bad Munki posted:Either way, nothing is set in stone yet, just wanted to know my options. Foam is one thing. Definitely don't set anything in stone 
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Feb 8, 2019 03:25
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KnifeWrench posted:Foam is one thing. Definitely don't set anything in stone How else would I secure my motorcycle?
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Feb 8, 2019 03:27
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angryrobots posted:How is it different than Romex that's stapled in a wall cavity? Or is between floors in an inaccessible chase? In both cases you're not prevented from inserting more wires alongside, though staples do preclude using the old wire to pull the new through. It's also pointless when you can throw it in some conduit and embed THAT in the foam, and still retain your ability to pull and replace the wire later. "loving PO ran romex and then globbed the cavity full of sprayfoam" is the sort of thing that comes up in the crappy construction thread from time to time.
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Feb 8, 2019 04:13
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In this case, the "cavity" is an attic with the backside of the roof 7' above the ceiling joists. It's a barn attic, running more wire post-foam is going to be as difficult as grabbing a stepladder and some wire staples. The only purpose the conduit would serve is to keep the wires tucked away invisibly. Which is the sort of silliness I engage in, but is in no way required here for later adjustments, foam or not.
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Feb 8, 2019 04:19
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I'm not arguing against using conduit as a chase. In the case of a shop or something where there's a good chance of making changes or upgrades, having future flexibility is wise. I'm just saying that generally speaking, there are plenty of commonly used and acceptable wiring methods and locations that are impossible to change without cutting access holes or whatever. It's not reasonable to expect every circuit to be completely accessible.
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Feb 8, 2019 04:27
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All I'm saying is "eh, it's fine, I won't need to get at it" has been uttered by many before you, and many of them were horribly, horribly wrong. It's worth spending the extra as insurance. Your barn, so whatever.
Javid fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Feb 8, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 04:46
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I’m not sure if that salt is directed at me or...? I mean, I already said I plan to run conduit for future use, but also even without, it wouldn’t affect the viability of alterations later. I just asked if I CAN embed the stuff in foam. e: Well, you edited away the salt. Anyhow, I’m not worried about the plan here, it’ll be an amalgam of all the options, and I am always careful not to actually shoot myself in the foot. I just wanted to know if this one part was actually allowed. It’ll allow me to move forward with activating parts of the shop, while still allowing flexibility where I need it later. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Feb 8, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 04:53
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Javid posted:All I'm saying is "eh, it's fine, I won't need to get at it" has been uttered by many before you, and many of them were horribly, horribly wrong. It's worth spending the extra as insurance. Your barn, so whatever. From someone who does this for a living, it's not worth the extra. There's a place for accessible wiring like angryrobots said (I'd definitely have surface mount emt/troughs in a mechanics shop), but how often do you need to access wiring in your walls? If you're burning up enough wires to consider the extra cost of conduit, then there are bigger problems than how it's run. The possible need to change amperage on a particular circuit (in a residential garage) just doesn't warrant the cost as long as one has a little foresight. edit: or barn/shop in this case Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Feb 8, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 05:16
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Bad Munki posted:e: Well, you edited away the salt. Yeah I was in a foul mood and realized it was way too nasty after I posted it. Do whatever, it's you that has to deal with it.
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Feb 8, 2019 06:08
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Conduit is great for difficult to access areas, if it's just drywall you can fish new wiring for an AC receptacle or dedicated computer station.
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Feb 8, 2019 07:12
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I haven't had to deal with it yet, but I don't think a spray foam insulated exterior wall would be much different than one with fiberglass to fish wire. It's already a pain in the rear end and I'm already probably using a long flexi bit to drill the top/foot plate and pull wire back. Anyhow I'm definitely not saying that anyone shouldn't plan for the future - in fact it's my opinion that data boxes should have conduit running to somewhere accessible. But electrical in walls is considered a permanent installation and is installed as such. Nobody is going to run conduit in residential or anywhere that it isn't spec'ed out and paid through the nose for.
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Feb 8, 2019 13:24
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KnifeWrench posted:Foam is one thing. Definitely don't set anything in stone Build your stick-framed house. Run wires, pipes, etc. Install sheathing and drywall. Pour concrete into the stud bays. Never change any of your utility layouts ever again, because you can't.
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Feb 8, 2019 18:38
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Build your stick-framed house. Run wires, pipes, etc. Install sheathing and drywall. Pour concrete into the stud bays. Never change any of your utility layouts ever again, because you can't. Nothing a server lift and diamondblade wet saw can't fix.
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Feb 8, 2019 18:45
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Build your stick-framed house. Run wires, pipes, etc. Install sheathing and drywall. Pour concrete into the stud bays. Never change any of your utility layouts ever again, because you can't. All problems can be solved by the appropriate application of high explosives.
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Feb 9, 2019 03:42
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Am I really reading this right, that I'm allowed to stuff twenty two 14 gauge conductors, or sixteen 12 gauge conductors, in a single 3/4" LFNC? That seems like a lot, just sanity checking.
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Feb 10, 2019 16:21
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Even if that's accurate, the max fill assumes a straight run. If you have any bends in the run you should expect to reduce that number substantially, if only to make your own life easier when you pull the wires.
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Feb 10, 2019 17:51
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That’s fine, it still just seems like a lot. In my case, it’ll be two 45 degree bends between junction boxes for each run, so nothing major. I was just thinking I’d need, like, 1.5” or something, but even at half that fill on 3/4”, I’ll be fine forever.
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Feb 10, 2019 18:41
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Bad Munki posted:That’s fine, it still just seems like a lot. In my case, it’ll be two 45 degree bends between junction boxes for each run, so nothing major. I was just thinking I’d need, like, 1.5” or something, but even at half that fill on 3/4”, I’ll be fine forever. Seems like one of those specs where the math works out from a physics perspective but the only real way to utilize it is with machine made pre-filled runs.
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Feb 10, 2019 18:55
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If anyone is curious, it fits with breathing room. I’m surprised. Here it is with 22 really wavy 14 gauge thhn and a couple screwdrivers. 
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Feb 10, 2019 20:11
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It is accurate. The reason it fits with breathing room is because the table is following a rule about conduit fill, which is that your conductors can occupy no more than 53% of the area (for one conductor), 31% (for two conductors) or 40% for three or more. And, to contradict TooMuchAbstraction slightly, those numbers actually do account for bend conduit, at least ideally. Those numbers are all based on the wires occupying no more than about 80-85% of the diameter of a conduit, so even around bends (where the conduit compresses in one direction) they can fit. Again, "ideally". Anyway, with that said, that chart is literally just "maximum physical fill". What it doesn't account for is the requirement to de-rate the ampacity of your wiring based on the number of current carrying conductors in a conduit.  So, you CAN fit 22 14 gauge wires into a 3/4" LFMC, but they'll only be rated for 6.75 amps, which is not useful. In your case, I'd recommend going with #10 wire and just pulling four circuits worth through right off the bat, even if you only plan to set up two outlets at first, because fishing through flex conduit is kind of a pain. 10s are rated for 30A, so even if in the future you hook all four circuits worth up and have to de-rate to 70%, you're still covered.
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Feb 11, 2019 02:31
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Yeah, I know fill rules aren’t the physical limit, I get all that. I just thought I had to be having a major brain fart because my spatial sense was telling me no way. To the benefit of the whole thing, the bends are really mild, so that’ll help. Like, a couple 45s on a 4’ radius.
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Feb 11, 2019 02:41
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I can relate to that.
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Feb 11, 2019 02:48
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I need some guidance on if what I am trying to do is possible, and if so what equipment I need. The problem: I've got a NEMA 10-30R receptacle in the garage, which the dryer is plugged into. I've also now got an electric vehicle, which can charge at 250V off of a NEMA 6-20R. I'd like to build something that allows me to leave the dryer plugged into a 10-30R, but with a switch to disconnect the dryer and instead energize a 6-20R for the car. Since the 6-20 is a lower current rating than the existing wiring and breaker, and both are 250V AC, this should be possible to do safely right? The idea here is to allow EITHER running the dryer OR charging the car, but never both simultaneously. One complication that I'm not sure about is that the 10-30 is a 2 phase plus neutral, while the 6-20 is 2 phase plus ground. Here's a crude cartoon of how I envision this wiring, with the selector switch I need to find circled. Note that the W (neutral) phase of the 10-30 is just disconnected when the switch is in the CAR position. I assume I'll have to wire the 6-20R ground to a separate local ground somewhere in the garage.  Does this make any sense?
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Feb 11, 2019 20:30
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Is the wiring in the garage accessible? Attached or detached? Does the garage have it's own subpanel? I'm guessing since laundry is in the garage, it's attached and does not have it's own panel.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:39
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Where is the panel in relation to the new receptacle you need? If you're already installing a receptacle and wire why not do it right to where it doesn't require some weird A/B switching setup?
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Feb 11, 2019 20:41
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Is there any code against having two 220v plugs on one run? If not I would just wire them together and make sure to only use one at a time.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:46
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You could probably make it work with a generator manual transfer switch but using something like that in a way it's not designed for is "Not A Good Idea"™
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Feb 11, 2019 20:46
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Actually. Here's the "proper" way to do this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton...-1288/301447057 You still have the issue that the outlet isn't grounded however. But this switch will only allow one load to be hot at any time.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:56
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Motronic posted:Where is the panel in relation to the new receptacle you need? If you're already installing a receptacle and wire why not do it right to where it doesn't require some weird A/B switching setup? The garage is attached but below the house (it's on a hill). There is a breaker box in the garage, but that might be the only one for the whole house? I am not sure, will need to double check. The breaker box is on the other side of the garage from the existing 10-30 outlet and I'd prefer to locate the new 6-20 near the existing outlet. I'm also not sure if the existing panel has space/capacity for another 250V load at 20 amps. SpartanIvy posted:Is there any code against having two 220v plugs on one run? If not I would just wire them together and make sure to only use one at a time. Should also mention this is a rental, not a house we own, so part of what I'm going for here is a solution that can be unplugged and removed easily if/when we move.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:59
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bawfuls posted:I am 100% not doing this. I don't want to leave the potential for accidentally pulling 50 amps on a 30 amp breaker and wiring. And part of the purpose of the switch is to avoid having to frequently unplug the dryer. This is literally what breakers are designed for. It's fine.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:03
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BIGFOOT EROTICA posted:Actually. Here's the "proper" way to do this: BIGFOOT EROTICA posted:This is literally what breakers are designed for. It's fine.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:05
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bawfuls posted:Should also mention this is a rental, not a house we own, so part of what I'm going for here is a solution that can be unplugged and removed easily if/when we move. Full stop. Any property that isn't yours should be done by a licensed and bonded electrician (and obviously, approved by the property owner). Assuming there isn't an unconnected ground wire just hanging out in the existing dryer outlet you will, at minimum, need to be running new wire. bawfuls posted:Sure, but isn't the wiring between the 10-30 and the breaker still a potential failure point? This place was built in the 60's, if that's any help. Assuming things were wired correctly, the only way you would be able to overload the wiring would be to replace the breaker with a larger breaker. That's literally the purpose of the breaker. Here's my advice: 1) See if you can find another panel. 2) Take pictures of the panel(s) and inside of the dryer outlet. Post them here. 3) Be prepared to talk to the property owner and pay an electrician. 30 TO 50 FERAL HOG fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 21:05
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bawfuls posted:Should also mention this is a rental, STOP RIGHT THERE. This is a hard no. We need to have like, a one question questionnaire on several of the threads that is just "are you renting the property you are asking about?" and it just logs you out if you click Yes.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:18
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I'll get pictures of the panel(s) tonight. We need to have an electrician come out anyway as there's an outlet in one bathroom that's been dead for awhile. If we have to go with the electrician route, at least this is in CA where legally property owners must make reasonable accommodation for renters to install electric vehicle charging equipment at the renter's expense.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:23
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bawfuls posted:I'll get pictures of the panel(s) tonight. We need to have an electrician come out anyway as there's an outlet in one bathroom that's been dead for awhile. Good! And also to note, if the panel is right there in the garage (and it is indeed the main panel), this should not be a huge or expensive undertaking for an electrician. The placement is ideal.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:26
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always good to post advice in DIY and have someone say "okay i will listen and abide by what you are telling me" instead of "so i cut the tops off of my engineered structural beams. here's why i think that is okay 1/82"
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Feb 11, 2019 21:28
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I changed my answer because I previewed my reply and I'm glad you are being reasonable and doing the safe thing! bawfuls posted:Is there anything to worry about leaving the neutral phase connected when the rest of the 10-30 is disconnected and the 6-20 is pulling off the X & Y? I want to say something about this, but you are getting an electrician, so.....
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Feb 11, 2019 21:40
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I take it that means there's something extremely stupid and dangerous about leaving the neutral connected.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:42
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bawfuls posted:I take it that means there's something extremely stupid and dangerous about leaving the neutral connected. Nah, more like this shouldn't be a question. I guess there are special appliances that could dump out power over neutral even after being turned off, but we are talking about a dryer here. But there is basically a gap of knowledge between your diagram that could work and that question. You should know about why and when neutral is connected.
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Feb 11, 2019 22:31
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bawfuls posted:I take it that means there's something extremely stupid and dangerous about leaving the neutral connected. A 240V circuit doesn't have a neutral - it has two 'hot' wires. That's how you get the 240V - 120+120. And the switch in question, because it's a double-pole switch, is switching both wires. There's nothing 'left connected'.
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Feb 12, 2019 01:53
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