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Elendil004 posted:At the time, given our run ins with the navy we joked that they might do more harm than good, but honestly if they were half as good as the DC crews on the Fitz sounded, we would have been in good hands. That's a little navy professionalism that sticks with me to this day. It almost makes me feel bad for stealing the jack off one of the ships during a port call...Almost... From the merchant perspective it's just astonishing to hear what you can accomplish on a ship that has more than 20 crew. I can't imagine firefighting on a 20000+ TEU ship with 18 men on board or whatever, the US flag ships we have are big enough to be unmanageable and not even half that size.
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Feb 7, 2019 22:25
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buttplug posted:Post-Cole or pre-Cole? The Navy has always taken firefighting at sea seriously, but much, much moreso after the Cole bombing. Which, again harks back to my point above about how we tend to learn a lot of lessons the hard way (through blood). Post-cole Mind you this was the same navy group that gave us a rdvs position in South and meant North but figured we would have known.
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Feb 7, 2019 22:46
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buttplug posted:Post-Cole or pre-Cole? The Navy has always taken firefighting at sea seriously, but much, much moreso after the Cole bombing. Which, again harks back to my point above about how we tend to learn a lot of lessons the hard way (through blood). The bitterest pill is that it gradually forgot how serious about firefighting it got after watching the British experience in the Falklands--the USN suddenly remembered flash gear was a good idea, and maybe we ought to have some of those thermal imager thingies, and maybe replacing all that WW2 surplus mechanical foam with something that didn't attract sharks might be better for all concerned, and everything was very firefighting-oriented. How many times has this cycle repeated?
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Feb 7, 2019 23:19
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Madurai posted:How many times has this cycle repeated? About every 20 years. Forrestal was 60s, Falklands War was 80s, Cole was 00s
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Feb 7, 2019 23:54
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Uh there was basically no significant firefighting on the Cole, it was all flooding. There was on the Forrestal though. And the Enterprise. And the Samuel B Roberts. And the Stark. And the Bonefish. And the Miami. And the George Washington.
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Feb 8, 2019 00:04
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Yeah, I was gonna say, the GW is definitely the more significant event. It's definitely the one they shoved down our throats at boot camp DC. Forrestal is #2, it mostly gets brought up for aircraft firefighting.
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Feb 8, 2019 00:32
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Cerekk posted:Uh there was basically no significant firefighting on the Cole, it was all flooding. There was on the Forrestal though. And the Enterprise. And the Samuel B Roberts. And the Stark. And the Bonefish. And the Miami. And the George Washington. To clarify, it wasn't just the firefighting on Cole (you're right, not significant) it was the collective damage control efforts that made the Navy take a good, hard look at overall DC (to include firefighting and flooding TTPs). My ultimate point was mostly just that it takes significant "oh gently caress" moments in the Navy to truly bring about change.
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Feb 8, 2019 00:40
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buttplug posted:To clarify, it wasn't just the firefighting on Cole (you're right, not significant) it was the collective damage control efforts that made the Navy take a good, hard look at overall DC (to include firefighting and flooding TTPs). See also : Sub Safety program and Thresher + Scorpion.
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Feb 8, 2019 01:35
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Mr. Nice! posted:LoM = legion of merit. High level award. Oh yes. Thank you for the refresh! I got a Navy Com along with 35 other people. That was also my end of tour award. The logic behind this was, "Well, you all got a COM for the collision, so you don't need anything else." I was incredibly upset that several officers and sailors that had been with the ship for a long period and had contributed a significant amount during the collision only received that. I remember phrasing it to a superior officer that they were just disregarding everything we'd done on the ship, were only looking at the worst day of our lives, and deciding that the one award was good enough. Thanks. Appreciate that. I still maintain that I'd have rather gotten a NAM for my year on board the ship than the COM for the collision. People have told me that one day I'll appreciate it, but I don't think that will happen. There is an article floating out there that lists all of our names and that we received the COM. Our two Ombudsman also received awards for the work they did over the following days. I tried pushing for higher awards for my DCC, and I'm unclear if he ever got anything higher, or if he got anything at all. He's not one to really talk about it either, so I don't know. Same with Chief Rehm. I don't know if they gave him the highest non-combat award or not. I can't remember if his tombstone said anything about it. I did use NSTMs during the flooding. I had a at least two open, and I could probably figure out which ones they were if I looked through my DCASE CD again. I think the 555 was one of them. Weirdly enough, not as helpful as you'd think, but I'm inclined to believe that stress and 2 and a half hours of sleep contributed to that. My brain just was having a hard time understanding a lot of things, but I absolutely remembered the equation to determine the weight of water in a space. The reason I had the notebook open and was doing equations in it was because the plexiglass covered ledge I typically used during drills filled up as I was adding things. Obviously I had the ship's plates open, and my plotter had those things filled. FITZ had system where the DCA provides guidance on what to do, and focuses on that, while making sure that the plot is correct. They don't actually plot themselves so they're not getting bogged down. I didn't implement this system, I think that was the previous DCA, and it worked really well. When we got new ensigns on board, they'd come to CCS for a few weeks and learn to plot while we ran drills. Then they'd go off to lockers and could keep up with what was happening. Our plates were more consistent than the Cole's though, and showed that we were communicating properly to determine what damage we had. Cole was what really hammered the current plotting system into place, and while our collision might update it a bit more, it worked well.
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Feb 8, 2019 03:29
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Just finished both the Navy organizational ProPublica article and the more narrative-style account of the FITZ from ProPublica. It's eye opening and depressing. But goddamn TVS, good job saving people's lives.
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Feb 8, 2019 03:47
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The Valley Stared posted:FITZ had system where the DCA provides guidance on what to do, and focuses on that, while making sure that the plot is correct. They don't actually plot themselves so they're not getting bogged down. I didn't implement this system, I think that was the previous DCA, and it worked really well. When we got new ensigns on board, they'd come to CCS for a few weeks and learn to plot while we ran drills. Then they'd go off to lockers and could keep up with what was happening. The DC plotter has been a thing for a while. I stood that role as a SN on my first ship in 2007 in yoko. There's no way the DCA could plot while trying to do everything else they need to do. We might have a JO come through once or twice during drills, but there was a dedicated watchstander for actual GQ or any certifications. Also the COM thing sounds about right when it comes to senior officers and awarding medals.
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Feb 8, 2019 03:56
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The only reason I bring it up is that on USS First Ship, the DCA plotted. Both of the ones I had while there did. So for me going to the Fitz, it was a bit of a shift. I appreciated it, and the original plotter I had (an OS3) was fantastic at it. They also did a great job of explaining how to plot to new ensigns and really did a considerable amount to help me. A thing I wanted to talk about on the first article before I get to the second: I'm surprised that they named the Conn. Everything I'd seen before had never named him. He's a good guy who genuinely cared about his sailors on the ship. He was excited to learn how to Conn, and was picking it up really quick. For privacy reasons, I'm not going to speak a lot more about him, but I hold no hard feelings towards him at all. 2nd article: Holy gently caress. I feel very bad now for being angry at 7th fleet, because it doesn't sound like they were the real problem. It was Swift and above. Also, drat, Swift. I know that you were an aviator, but that was a real SWO move doing that to ADM Aucoin. And the fact that Maybus doesn't feel like he's responsible at all for what happened and that it's all on us? I think that's what gets me the most; the fact that Maybus decided he needed to build lots of ships, and people are telling him that this was not the right move. I agree that we do need more ships. We sure as hell don't need that many when we can barely man the ones that we have and provide needed training for them, but we need some.
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Feb 8, 2019 05:02
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Mr. Nice! posted:Also the COM thing sounds about right when it comes to senior officers and awarding medals. Yeah this is the most Navy thing ever. It's loving infuriating that you can be a window licking time card punching motherfucker and get an EoT COM but TVS and her sailors do some heroic poo poo and get the same. TVS you are a badass and I say this as someone who is professionally obligated to make fun of SWOs whenever possible.
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Feb 8, 2019 05:29
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CMD598 posted:Yeah, I was gonna say, the GW is definitely the more significant event. It's definitely the one they shoved down our throats at boot camp DC. This is not a judgement or anything, I just want to point out as a moment of appreciation that there were 0 fatalities in the GW fire, and by all accounts there should have been like 2 dozen. I saw the aftermath pics and was completely stunned noone died.
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Feb 8, 2019 05:33
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The Valley Stared posted:nd article: Firing VADM Aucoin came from significantly higher than ADM Swift. Also, remember that Swift was force retired, too. RUMINT was that he was slated to move from PACFLT to PACOM. Instead, they shuffled him out and put Aquilino in there (who went from 2 -> 4 stars in less than a year, and only spent about 6 months as NAVCENT/C5F). I blame CCSG5, and C7F. CCSG5 is the "first line" flag leadership and C7F is the Fleet Commander who should have known when to say "no" to their seniors. Unfortunately, even at the 2-3 star level that seldom happens. It's not new that we ride FDNF ships into the ground in 7th Fleet. On the other hand, the ships simply passing thru en route to C5F get all the gravy liberty ports and the indigenous CRUDES generally get garbage-rear end ports (partially due to their BMD tether) it's lose-lose for FDNF folks and has been for a very long time.
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Feb 8, 2019 06:52
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Re damage control, the preliminary report about the collision and sinking of the Norwegian FFG Helge Ingstad came out a while back. Two major findings: Reason for collision: lack of situational awareness on the FFG. In short they had just changed watch, and the bridge crew thought the deck lights on the tanker was part of the oil terminal. Also the deck lights obscured the nav lights. By the time they realized the "terminal" was bearing down on them it was too late. They also thought the radio transmissions warning them were from one of the other northbound ships in the area. Reason for sinking: The collision opened aft crew quarters, stores room and aft generator room to the sea (and thrashed stbd torpedo room and sickbay and damaged the helicopter fuel tank on the deck above, so some sleeping sailors woke up by the bulkhead tearing apart and then they were drenched in avgas and sparks from damaged HV cables in the overhead, only to find the deck awash in seawater when they got out of their bunks. Must've been fun). Initial damage assessment indicated "poor stability" but as the generator room filled up it turned out that water was transported into the gear room through the hollow propeller shafts, and from there into both engine rooms through the stuffing boxes. At that point vessel was decleared lost and order was given to abandon ship.
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Feb 8, 2019 12:59
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I already asked this in the Cold War thread but I'm still curious: What's the ambient temperature like throughout a big ship? It's a big metal box crammed with machinery so it should be warm, and it's parked in the sun all day so it should be even warmer? How much effort do they put into climate controlling it, is it like a mall where it's the same temp 24/7/365 or does it make a difference what the water temperature is like / whether you're above or below the waterline / what space you're in / how hot it is outside / what time of day it is? bewbies and mlmp said that the bridge is cooled down for the computers, I assume that the engine spaces tend to be warmer? Does it matter how fast you're going? Sorry for this bizarrely detailed weirdass question, idk what's so interesting about this to me.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:15
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aphid_licker posted:I already asked this in the Cold War thread but I'm still curious: What's the ambient temperature like throughout a big ship? It's a big metal box crammed with machinery so it should be warm, and it's parked in the sun all day so it should be even warmer? How much effort do they put into climate controlling it, is it like a mall where it's the same temp 24/7/365 or does it make a difference what the water temperature is like / whether you're above or below the waterline / what space you're in / how hot it is outside / what time of day it is? bewbies and mlmp said that the bridge is cooled down for the computers, I assume that the engine spaces tend to be warmer? Does it matter how fast you're going? Sorry for this bizarrely detailed weirdass question, idk what's so interesting about this to me. Engineering spaces are hotter than hell, always. Electronics spaces are the coldest on the ship apart from the refrigerators. The temperature of the water matters a lot because waste heat from the ship is vented to the ocean by the cooling system, as water carries heat quite well, but if the water temperature is warm, then it can't really sink as much heat. Once the temperature of the water gets close to 80-90f, it gets drat unbearable inside the ship, as heat is transferred through the hull, and the cooling system can't sink that heat back into the ocean.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:27
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orange juche posted:Engineering spaces are hotter than hell, always. Electronics spaces are the coldest on the ship apart from the refrigerators. When you're patrolling in the northern atlantic in the winter or something, does it go the other way then? I.e. do you have to wear cold weather gear inside or is heating easier? I assume there's a shitload of waste heat to go around, but then again the ship is immersed in really cold water.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:34
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aphid_licker posted:When you're patrolling in the northern atlantic in the winter or something, does it go the other way then? I.e. do you have to wear cold weather gear inside or is heating easier? I assume there's a shitload of waste heat to go around, but then again the ship is immersed in really cold water. There’s HVAC system on-board, and insulation where it matters. It’s like being in a big building. Except in the engine room where the heat can be relied upon to cause brain damage.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:43
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FrozenVent posted:There’s HVAC system on-board, and insulation where it matters. It’s like being in a big building. This is definitely the case on merchant ships because everything that normally has people in it is either engine room or superstructure, so it's a big building on top of an infernal pit and the other 95% of the ship is a big box full of cargo.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:50
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Engine spaces are always hot. The colder the outside water, the colder they get, though. Sea water is the cooling source on a ship and is also the air conditioner source coolant as well. In cold water, you can make anything but a main engine space ice cold. Berthing spaces are kept in the 60s if at all possible to keep the FAN smell down. Electronic spaces are kept ice cold to help keep equipment cold. Equipment is also cooled by seawater. It all boils down to where you are. Warm water is going to make things warmer inside. Cold water and things can get flat cold. It’s good for spaces in a ship to be cold, though.
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Feb 8, 2019 21:17
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I enjoyed wearing my fleece in our workspace while in the Gulf of Aden
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Feb 8, 2019 22:34
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I enjoy the dirty looks snipes give you in the mess line when you're wearing your fleece and wishing out loud that it was warmer.
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Feb 8, 2019 23:23
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aphid_licker posted:When you're patrolling in the northern atlantic in the winter or something, does it go the other way then? I.e. do you have to wear cold weather gear inside or is heating easier? I assume there's a shitload of waste heat to go around, but then again the ship is immersed in really cold water. It was not uncommon for folks to be wearing jackets in electronics spaces even when cruising around in the Gulf when engineers and deck guys are in a heat stress monitoring condition. As for the second question, ships have reheaters installed through out the HVAC to try and keep the spaces warm in cold conditions. Regardless though, the engine rooms are always hot even in the winter.
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Feb 8, 2019 23:23
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ManMythLegend posted:Regardless though, the engine rooms are always hot even in the winter. ...up to a point. When injection temps were below freezing, we had ER ventilation off and were comfortable at around 65F.
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Feb 9, 2019 00:04
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Yeah a submarine under the polar ice has a pleasantly chilly upper engine room and a cold rear end lower engine room with condensation and icicles everywhere
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Feb 9, 2019 00:47
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aphid_licker posted:When you're patrolling in the northern atlantic in the winter or something, does it go the other way then? I.e. do you have to wear cold weather gear inside or is heating easier? I assume there's a shitload of waste heat to go around, but then again the ship is immersed in really cold water. It can start snowing in the engine room when you're far enough north. At this point, sea temps will be under 32F and you will have steam lines connected to your sea chest just in case your cooling starts to freeze up. Ships dont usually have heating installed in the engine room or control room so jackets are normal. This is specific to merchant ships though. Steam ships can be a little warmer than diesels.
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Feb 9, 2019 00:59
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Mr. Bad Guy posted:I enjoy the dirty looks snipes give you in the mess line when you're wearing your fleece and wishing out loud that it was warmer. Username/post/reputation combo.
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Feb 9, 2019 01:23
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That ProPublica article  I'll just echo what everyone else here has already said, TVS you and the crew did one hell of a job in a terrible situation.
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Feb 9, 2019 03:43
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lightpole posted:It can start snowing in the engine room when you're far enough north. At this point, sea temps will be under 32F and you will have steam lines connected to your sea chest just in case your cooling starts to freeze up. Ships dont usually have heating installed in the engine room or control room so jackets are normal. This is specific to merchant ships though. Steam ships can be a little warmer than diesels. The other thing about cold conditions on merchant ships is of course the low sulfur fuel turns into jelly or wax or like, mud and clogs everything up comically.
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Feb 9, 2019 03:51
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Is it true that Merchant Marine engine spaces are actually clean? I can't fathom that.
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Feb 9, 2019 06:35
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SpaceSDoorGunner posted:Is it true that Merchant Marine engine spaces are actually clean? I can't fathom that. Not really, especially not on American ships from what I can tell. Also we burn residual fuel which makes things grimy just by being within a hundred meters of it. Small tugs and workboats are often kept immaculate though. Edit: here's one, a little cleaner than average https://youtu.be/xiJkLIEQYVI
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Feb 9, 2019 06:52
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They should be decently clean if they are on a foreign run otherwise port state becomes an issue. A run to China, the UAE, Pakistan etc means we can get cleaners to help out. When I was a cadet, we got cleaners in Yantian or Khaosiung even though we were restricted to ship and forbidden contact with every other local since SARS had just come to light. The older ones on a US run can be a bit rough but those are starting to go out.
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Feb 9, 2019 09:50
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lightpole posted:It can start snowing in the engine room when you're far enough north. At this point, sea temps will be under 32F and you will have steam lines connected to your sea chest just in case your cooling starts to freeze up. Ships dont usually have heating installed in the engine room or control room so jackets are normal. This is specific to merchant ships though. Steam ships can be a little warmer than diesels. Cerekk posted:Yeah a submarine under the polar ice has a pleasantly chilly upper engine room and a cold rear end lower engine room with condensation and icicles everywhere Man I love this mental image. Thanks everyone!
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Feb 9, 2019 11:26
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Caconym posted:Re damage control, the preliminary report about the collision and sinking of the Norwegian FFG Helge Ingstad cam jesus christ, i wouldn't have thought this possible
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Feb 9, 2019 13:15
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TF CURES GENERATOR posted:jesus christ, i wouldn't have thought this possible Neighter did the accident investigation board. https://www.aibn.no/Marine/Investigations/18-968 Aibn safety alert posted:Appendix A – Safety alert, collision between the frigate 'KNM Helge Ingstad' and the tanker 'Sola TS' on 8 November 2018, outside the Sture terminal in Hjeltefjorden in Hordaland County
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Feb 9, 2019 13:55
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Never be cross-assigned. It looks like my eval from last year is still not in OMPF or any other systems. I would just send it as a letter to the board, which is last day to send is tomorrow midnight, but OWA West is not working. OWA East is but my account isn't on there. Hopefully, when someone gets into work tomorrow email will work again or this is just another year to write off any chance at 8.
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Feb 10, 2019 23:26
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My old unit can no longer muster me and my new unit can’t either. Gonna have to go into the NOSC and unfuck this.
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Feb 11, 2019 02:48
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Nick Soapdish posted:Never be cross-assigned. It looks like my eval from last year is still not in OMPF or any other systems. I would just send it as a letter to the board, which is last day to send is tomorrow midnight, but OWA West is not working. OWA East is but my account isn't on there. Hopefully, when someone gets into work tomorrow email will work again or this is just another year to write off any chance at 8. Fail to plan, plan to fail etc. etc. Don't wait until the night before the deadline to submit a letter to the board, for starters. More importantly - don't wait until you're 30-60 days out from a board to scrub your record. Do it every 30-60 days and never underestimate admin or Millington's ability to gently caress poo poo up. Sorry.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:42
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