|
fishmech posted:Why do you keep yelling about the US privatizing oil in Venezuela and not about Russia or China doing so? Why do you think it's better for Eurasian capitalists to own the oil than American capitalists? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 16:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 16:16 |
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:I've explained this before but this is an English-language forum based in the USA. We should be focusing on opposing our own governments' imperialist foreign policy in Venezuela because it's where we actually have power to do something. I'm not interested in helping build the anti-Russia and anti-China propaganda effort that the US and NATO are going to use to justify starting World War 3 to their citizens when one of these conflicts like Venezuela, Syria, or Ukraine inevitably escalates too far. I live in Russia and I am very concerned about my government supporting autocratic regimes across the globe in order to influence oil prices. What now? Am I allowed to poo poo up the thread with my imperial guilt yet?
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 16:10
|
|
|
fatherboxx posted:I live in Russia and I am very concerned about my government supporting autocratic regimes across the globe in order to influence oil prices.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 16:12
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:Why are you posting about it here instead of a Russian forum then? Think hard about this.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 16:19
|
|
|
Kurnugia posted:I thought you said you were in the US? huh So that's something *else* you're wrong about, then!
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 16:22
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:I'm not interested in helping build the anti-Russia (...) propaganda effort that the US and NATO are going to use to justify starting World War 3 to their citizens when one of these conflicts like (...) Ukraine inevitably escalates too far. Dear God, an actual Putin apologist.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 16:26
|
|
|
Rust Martialis posted:Dear God, an actual Putin apologist.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 16:28
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:I've explained this before but this is an English-language forum based in the USA. We should be focusing on opposing our own governments' imperialist foreign policy in Venezuela I think this is a dumb point generally since this is not an Internet forum in which the discussions have an iota of impact on policy. Nothing here will trend or go viral, those days are over. Also I suspect the majority of posters in this thread are not American and/or do not live in the US. In fact other than you I’m not sure if any of the posters in the last two or three pages are US posters. That because this physical server is located in the USA the discussions should be about America is an even dumber point that’s not even worth refuting.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 16:59
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:I've explained this before but this is an English-language forum based in the USA. We should be focusing on opposing our own governments' imperialist foreign policy in Venezuela because it's where we actually have power to do something. And yet you're doing nothing to help.  Fuera, gringo de mierda.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 17:02
|
|
|
Vanguard fucko saying the quiet part loud, literally attempting to divide the forum by goddamn nationality. Fuckin lol.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 17:05
|
|
|
Christ, just imagine some dude rolling into the UKMT and going 'excuse me, but I think the American perspective is most important here'.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 17:08
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:I've explained this before but this is an English-language forum based in the USA. We should be focusing on opposing our own governments' imperialist foreign policy in Venezuela because it's where we actually have power to do something. I'm not interested in helping build the anti-Russia and anti-China propaganda effort that the US and NATO are going to use to justify starting World War 3 to their citizens when one of these conflicts like Venezuela, Syria, or Ukraine inevitably escalates too far. Oh right, we Venezuelans should probably shut up about Venezuela in the Venezuela thread, this is actually about the USA. Everything is about the USA. Only Americans with American opinions allowed. You're certainly woke.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 17:12
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/GrayzoneProject/status/1095291556481953793
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 17:15
|
|
|
sorry guys you heard him, only  opinions matter
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 17:16
|
|
|
There are pretty large crowds out already for today's demonstrations, which are aimed at showing support for the humanitarian aid campaign. This is a shot of the demonstration on the Francisco de Miranda avenue in Caracas at about noon: https://twitter.com/ReporteYa/status/1095353882073595904 And a video from the same site: https://twitter.com/NTN24ve/status/1095347764186222595 In Maracaibo, demonstrators marched to the Red Cross office in the city in support of the aid campaign: https://twitter.com/Madepalmar/status/1095351219881734145 A demonstration in Merida: https://twitter.com/ReporteYa/status/1095354989940273152 Elsewhere in Caracas, the PSUV has organized its own demonstration. These are some shots from that event: https://twitter.com/EfectoCocuyo/status/1095341120442138627 Government supporters in the Plaza Morelos in Caracas: https://twitter.com/PartidoPSUV/status/1095352294374289415 Maduro supporters dancing in the Plaza Morelos: https://twitter.com/ElPitazoTV/status/1095341783737749504 Another bit of news is that Guaido announced yesterday that they had somehow managed to sneak in about [urlhttps://www.lapatilla.com/2019/02/11/guaido-entrega-primer-cargamento-con-ayuda-humanitaria-fotos/]80,000 infant dietary supplements and 4,500 supplements for pregnant women[/url] into Caracas. I'm not sure where that aid came from, but it's being distributed to the Church so that they can distribute it. The opposition has also launched a website where you can sign up as a volunteer to help in the humanitarian aid campaign. You can volunteer from anywhere in the world as long as you have a Venezuelan national identification number. The registration page also asks if you have access to a vehicle, which I guess has to do with the logistics of distributing aid. Also yesterday, Maduro spoke at an event to launch the "Marca Pais" (I think this means something like, "Country Brand" as in, "This is the brand of our country"), which is an effort to boost tourism and international investment in Venezuela. Maduro shared this video which was made to launch the campaign: https://twitter.com/NicolasMaduro/status/1095137011894235139
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 17:20
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:sorry guys you heard him, only Once again you're strawmanning me about things I've never actually said because you're incapable of engaging with my actual positions. Unlike you all pro-intervention posters I've always been 100% honest and in good faith about what my principles are where I'm coming from. It really doesn't reflect well on you and your positions that all you're capable of doing is engaging in bath faith, putting words in my mouth, and trying to pretend you "gotcha" me as a "Putin apologist" for being anti-war, or absurdly as someone who thinks "only american opinions matter" for pointing out that only the american narrative is being perpetuated here.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 17:27
|
|
Chuck Boone, is it your sense that tourism is a viable avenue for economic diversification in Venezuela? I'm still trying to wrap my hands around the challenges involved in diversifying a former hardcore petrostate.Bob le Moche posted:I've explained this before but this is an English-language forum based in the USA. We should be focusing on opposing our own governments' imperialist foreign policy in Venezuela because it's where we actually have power to do something. I'm not interested in helping build the anti-Russia and anti-China propaganda effort that the US and NATO are going to use to justify starting World War 3 to their citizens when one of these conflicts like Venezuela, Syria, or Ukraine inevitably escalates too far. Quoting this just so it can stick around. The solipsism it entails is just 
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 17:31
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Chuck Boone, is it your sense that tourism is a viable avenue for economic diversification in Venezuela? I'm still trying to wrap my hands around the challenges involved in diversifying a former hardcore petrostate. Yeah, Venezuela is really beautiful. We've got snow-capped mountains in Tachira/Merida, lush jungles (including unique rock formations called tepuis) in the south, and tropical beaches on the Caribbean coast. One of the many tragedies in this whole situation is that the country could be a top tourist destination, but all of the country's problems make it largely inaccessible.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 17:36
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Quoting this just so it can stick around. The solipsism it entails is just I identified myself as a Canadian in my first post in this thread. Canada is basically a vassal of the US and supports it in all its imperialist wars. The Canadian government is strongly aligning itself with Trump, Bolsonaro, etc. with regards to intervention in Venezuela.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 17:48
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:I've explained this before but this is an English-language forum based in the USA. We should be focusing on opposing our own governments' imperialist foreign policy in Venezuela because it's where we actually have power to do something. I'm not interested in helping build the anti-Russia and anti-China propaganda effort that the US and NATO are going to use to justify starting World War 3 to their citizens when one of these conflicts like Venezuela, Syria, or Ukraine inevitably escalates too far. If that's the goal then the left-wing optics to the actual voting block that matters for this (Venezuelan-Americans & Cuban-Americans) has been nothing short of horrendous. It bears repeating, but Hillary lost Florida by a razor thin margin of 1.2% This is a pretty transparent ploy for Florida votes in 2020. If you're a voter sitting in California or Oregon, your opinion on this bears virtually no weight in politics. You would be much better served reaching out to voters and citizens whose opinions will matter on election night. I can tell you that Miami is absolutely livid about Ro Khanna and FL Dems have been running around doing damage control. Andres Oppenheimer is pretty influential in Miami politics and this was his hot take on it recently in the Miami Herald: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/andres-oppenheimer/article225431885.html Keep in mind the Herald has been breathlessly reporting in the Spanish-language edition everytime a democrat so much as whispers a kind word about Maduro or Venezuela. If anything, the Democrat response has caused a lot of the voting block to dig in and there's now more support for military intervention in Miami than there has ever been in the past decade, which makes the actual probability of intervention higher.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 17:51
|
|
|
Heya, I'm super ignorant and dumb about Venezuela but I'm hearing an awful lot about it from sources I don't trust. Like any news station. Is anyone able to explain like I'm 5 all this to me? Or point me to a dumb persons run down, from a half decent source? I assumed the OP was old and out of date because this thread was old, but it seems to have to updated, I'll read that too. BoneMonkey fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Feb 12, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 17:52
|
|
|
BoneMonkey posted:Heya, I'm super ignorant and dumb about Venezuela but I'm hearing an awful lot about it from sources I don't trust. Like any news station. Is anyone able to explain like I'm 5 all this to me? Or point me to a dumb persons run down, from a half decent source? the explain like i'm five is quick and simple. twenty-one years ago a socialist got elected president of Venezuela. eighteen years ago the US tried to coup the poo poo out of him, and it didn't work. he tied his country's currency to the cost of oil. this was a very good idea while the price of oil was high. this became an incredibly bad idea the second the price of oil crashed. he died in 2013. his subordinate has taken over since. he does not have the same cult of personality, and has managed the response to the crash of the price of oil very badly. it turns out when you base your power on being able to provide things to your people, and the currency you use to buy said things takes a poo poo and dies at the same time as the price of your chief export, you stop being able to provide them. things are not good in venezuela. a couple weeks ago, VP Pence decided to dust off the ol' Axis of Evil line, incorporating Venezuela as criminal number one. a week later, an opposition leader proclaimed himself the Actual President of Venezuela, and in celebration America immediately announced Literal Committer Of Genocide In Order To Back Up Right Wing Dictatorships In Latin America, Elliot Abrams, would be the US' point man on Venezuela. this story will not have a happy ending. the only real question at this point is whether that unhappy ending features US-backed right wing death squads playing the greatest hits of the 80s, 90s, and today all over the bodies of the inconveniently dark-skinned and/or possible PSUV sympathizers.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 18:34
|
|
|
Rust Martialis posted:I for one do not think a full fledged civil war is in the cards. At some point, the military and/or police stop obeying orders to suppress protests, and then Maduro is out. The crowds storm Miraflores, etc etc. Who ends up in the hotseat next, Guaidó, a random General, or even a Chavista, no clue yet. More of an Eastern Europe color revolution than a Cold War coup.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 18:44
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the explain like i'm five is quick and simple. This does skip over the 2015 constitutional crisis, which provided most of the domestic Venezuelan set-up for the present situation. Basically, after a couple of years of poverty, turmoil and corruption, the opposition secured a majority in the country's legislature. The departing PSUV members went 'lol nope' and stuffed the Supreme Court before they got kicked out. The new Supreme Court then found irregularities in the 2015 election and kicked out enough opposition members to deny them a supermajority in the legislature and let Maduro's government veto the poo poo out of anything they proposed. Since this created a state of total legislative deadlock, the Supreme Court then amended the constitution to temporarily give itself (and Maduro) the legislature's powers and announced the creation of a new legislature with blackjack and hookers. The opposition went 'no, sorry, that's bullshit', boycotted the election of the new legislature, and declared everything after the 2015 election invalid rules-lawyering by an illegitimate government. That's where the second president came from - the old legislature used its previous powers, from before this whole constitutional mess, to replace Maduro with Guaidó, the present majority leader in said legislature. Now both sides are reaching out to whichever murderous imperialist rear end in a top hat will take them in order to get control of the country from the treacherous, corrupt saboteurs on the other side.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 18:53
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:This does seem like some "We will be greeted as liberators" level wishful thinking. Maduro has the backing of major powers who have a strong interest in keeping him (or at least a like-minded successor) around and armed hardline supporters. I can believe Guaidó has enough domestic support to initiate a civil war but it doesn't seem like anywhere near enough to make it a quick and relatively bloodless affair. not to mention that, again, the decision to put the US in his corner was probably the worst imaginable strategic move as far as trying to win the army over. the US' playbook on what you do in a situation where the military is hostile to the US' interests involves a complete purge of the officer class from any positions of power. as you can see from recent examples in Libya and Iraq, this generates two wonderful side effects. one, the military will continue to fight against US proxies until the moment it becomes clear there is no chance of victory, because the best-case scenario for what happens if they lose is they lose their jobs. two, after the purge is complete, there suddenly a bunch of guys with military training, knowledge of where the country's military and economic resources are and how to use them, connections among the local elite, a grudge against the new administration, and a lot of free time to pursue their interests. this is, how you say, not a recipe for stability
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 18:53
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:This does seem like some "We will be greeted as liberators" level wishful thinking. Maduro has the backing of major powers who have a strong interest in keeping him (or at least a like-minded successor) around and armed hardline supporters. I can believe Guaidó has enough domestic support to initiate a civil war but it doesn't seem like anywhere near enough to make it a quick and relatively bloodless affair. Which "major power" backs Maduro exactly? I seriously doubt China gives a gently caress about anything beyond getting oil, and getting repaid. Russia? Do you think Putin really cares about the Bolivarian Republic, or about getting paid? Both China and Russia will back whomever keeps the money and oil flowing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 19:02
|
|
|
Rust Martialis posted:Which "major power" backs Maduro exactly? I seriously doubt China gives a gently caress about anything beyond getting oil, and getting repaid. Russia? Do you think Putin really cares about the Bolivarian Republic, or about getting paid? That said, Russia does seem to be trying to establish a recognised brand of 'resolute loyalty to awful people'. It's the one big advantage they have over democratic great powers, who are much less reliable long-term partners.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 19:05
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:That said, Russia does seem to be trying to establish a recognised brand of 'resolute loyalty to awful people'. It's the one big advantage they have over democratic great powers, who are much less reliable long-term partners. Russia would also benefit by helping to supply weapons/supplies (and getting money for them) during a US invasion to help the US waste even more time/lives/money on idiotic adventures.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 19:10
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:That said, Russia does seem to be trying to establish a recognised brand of 'resolute loyalty to awful people'. It's the one big advantage they have over democratic great powers, who are much less reliable long-term partners. Syria means way more to Russia than Venezuela - the port at Tartus alone. Plus it was a long-term Cold War ally. There was serious Russian prestige at stake, they were standing by a long term alliance. Venezuela, really, not in the same class.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 19:20
|
|
BoneMonkey posted:Heya, I'm super ignorant and dumb about Venezuela but I'm hearing an awful lot about it from sources I don't trust. Like any news station. Is anyone able to explain like I'm 5 all this to me? Or point me to a dumb persons run down, from a half decent source? Generally, posts from the OP and a few other Venegoons are the best source of information in the thread. The situation in Venezuela is subject to a tremendous amount of propaganda material from the Maduro regime and its backers (even more so than usual, owing to the circumstances).
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 19:24
|
|
|
IIRC the main venegoons are Chuck Boone, fnox, and Hugoon Chavez right?
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 19:33
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Generally, posts from the OP and a few other Venegoons are the best source of information in the thread. The situation in Venezuela is subject to a tremendous amount of propaganda material from the Maduro regime and its backers (even more so than usual, owing to the circumstances). it's also subject to a tremendous amount of propaganda material from western anti-socialist sources since chavez took over. i don't think random posters on a comedy forum are cia plants but i would be suspicious of the motives of many others, particularly in anglophone sources.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 19:44
|
|
|
Mr Luxury Yacht posted:IIRC the main venegoons are Chuck Boone, fnox, and Hugoon Chavez right? Plus Labradoodle and Blue Nation (who IIRC is the only Venegoon still in country).
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 19:44
|
|
|
Do remember not to give too much credence though, this is a forum, and as we all know, the server's physical location demands a forced discussion focal point you can never break from, all hail Vanguardism.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 19:49
|
|
|
Thanks for the explanation guys. Seems like the standard story of idiots and monsters. I'm sorry Venezuela goons. If it's any consolation my country is about to cut off its head to spite it's nose. So we are gonna be where you are at in a year or two. Man everything is so poo poo at the moment. Even countries that are doing well like China are goddamn nightmare factories.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 19:51
|
|
|
The Gray Zone is Max Blumenthal's media organization. Not exactly an unbiased source. His is currently in-country in Venezuela, appears to be part of a large government effort to invite small time media and influencers to start a propaganda campaign. https://elcooperante.com/la-turista-espanola-vino-invitada-por-cancilleria-y-se-comio-mas-de-26-millones-de-bolivares/
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 19:58
|
|
|
BoneMonkey posted:Man everything is so poo poo at the moment. Even countries that are doing well like China are goddamn nightmare factories. The world as a whole is doing much better than it ever has before. Last month, for the first time in human history, the global middle class was larger than the global lower class. Poverty is really the default state of humanity, and humans are doing better at pulling themselves out of it. So things are looking up. Venezuela is so notable because it is bucking this trend.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 19:58
|
|
|
DoctorStrangelove posted:The world as a whole is doing much better than it ever has before. Last month, for the first time in human history, the global middle class was larger than the global lower class. Poverty is really the default state of humanity, and humans are doing better at pulling themselves out of it. So things are looking up. Venezuela is so notable because it is bucking this trend. Didn't it turn out that a bunch of those economic wellbeing indicators were going up, up, up because the people measuring them were ignoring inflation and doing other daft poo poo?
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 20:03
|
|
|
zapplez posted:The Gray Zone is Max Blumenthal's media organization. Not exactly an unbiased source. His is currently in-country in Venezuela, appears to be part of a large government effort to invite small time media and influencers to start a propaganda campaign. not exactly unbiased is an understatement. dude pushes a ton of lovely conspiracy theories for stupid assholes. anyways, back to lurking.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 20:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 16:16 |
|
|
I mean I think its important to watch the video and see venezuelans who presumably still support the PSUV manifesting themselves on camera, no problem with that, but yes Max Blumenthal has made his bones these last couple of years by being correctly skeptical of all western media while concurrently being a credulous shithead to awful people like direct interviews with Daniel Ortega and basically buying every PSUV talking point at face value.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2019 20:07
|
|