Doors of Stonewalling: the Patrick Rothfuss Thread

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Doors of Stonewalling: the Patrick Rothfuss Thread

Doctor Faustine: Sep 2, 2018

Cicero posted:

Systemic magic appeals to a lot of people because "I dunno a wizard did it" is or at least can be very deus ex machina-y.

It�s only deus ex machina if you�re a lovely writer overall, so the solution to that problem isn�t �systemize the gently caress out of magic to the point that anything wondrous, awe-inspiring, or fantastical is sucked out of it.� The solution to that problem is for fantasy writers to stop being poo poo, though I know that�s a tall order for the overwhelming majority of them.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:22

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# ? May 20, 2024 05:39

ElGroucho: Nov 1, 2005; We already - What about sticking our middle fingers up... That was insane; Fun Shoe

Doctor Faustine posted:

It�s only deus ex machina if you�re a lovely writer overall, so the solution to that problem isn�t �systemize the gently caress out of magic to the point that anything wondrous, awe-inspiring, or fantastical is sucked out of it.� The solution to that problem is for fantasy writers to stop being poo poo, though I know that�s a tall order for the overwhelming majority of them.

It's why Book of the New Sun is so loving good. It isn't even magic, it's just science- but to Severian, it might as well be magic, because he doesn't know how it works. Imagine how loving boring the books would have been if the Autarch had explained the teleportation portals in terms of quantum physics.

Instead, he just dumbs it down for Severian. "It's like a poo poo load of mirrors pointed at each other. It doesn't matter, dude, you step on here and blammo! You're halfway across the galaxy."

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:31

my bony fealty: Oct 1, 2008

ElGroucho posted:

It's why Book of the New Sun is so loving good. It isn't even magic, it's just science- but to Severian, it might as well be magic, because he doesn't know how it works. Imagine how loving boring the books would have been if the Autarch had explained the teleportation portals in terms of quantum physics.

Instead, he just dumbs it down for Severian. "It's like a poo poo load of mirrors pointed at each other. It doesn't matter, dude, you step on here and blammo! You're halfway across the galaxy."

yeah and the real magic that there is in BotNS is basically divine intervention and incomprehensible, Severian tries to figure out the rules of the claw multiple times and fails cuz the source of its power is God and thats all you need to know

put it another way more fantasy authors should be Catholic (and less Mormon)

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:57

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Notahippie posted:

IIRC there's a South Pacific culture that historically didn't make the connection because, it's hypothesized, they ate a lot of a root vegetable with high levels of hormones that may have acted as a low-effectiveness birth control. I don't know if that was ever actually supported, but that was the claim that got tossed around.

Finally loving found it. Trobriand Islands.

quote:

Babies are thought to be the result of magic with no link between sex and pregnancy
...
'If a girl gets pregnant, her family keeps the baby, because, according to the local custom, men just help to open up the woman to pregnancy - the real father is a Baloma or spirit.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...me-cricket.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trobriand_Islands#Marriage_customs

Doctor Faustine posted:

It�s only deus ex machina if you�re a lovely writer overall, so the solution to that problem isn�t �systemize the gently caress out of magic to the point that anything wondrous, awe-inspiring, or fantastical is sucked out of it.� The solution to that problem is for fantasy writers to stop being poo poo, though I know that�s a tall order for the overwhelming majority of them.

While this seems to be a minority* position in TBB, the position of the systematizing writers is that the more rules their magic adheres to, the more that the magic can be constantly onscreen and active. Not a deus ex machina, because the god is already on the stage, has been on stage the whole time, and for better or worse everyone knows how many elephants the god can lift.

*i.e., one not held by any of the 3 posters that make up more than 50% of TBB posts.

ulmont fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Feb 12, 2019

# ? Feb 12, 2019 21:21

ElGroucho: Nov 1, 2005; We already - What about sticking our middle fingers up... That was insane; Fun Shoe

It's one of the good things about the Black Company series. What is magic? Who loving knows, but boy is it hosed up.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 21:35

Punished Chuck: Dec 27, 2010

my bony fealty posted:

put it another way more fantasy authors should be Catholic (and less Mormon)

# ? Feb 12, 2019 21:57

Doctor Faustine: Sep 2, 2018

ulmont posted:

While this seems to be a minority* position in TBB, the position of the systematizing writers is that the more rules their magic adheres to, the more that the magic can be constantly onscreen and active. Not a deus ex machina, because the god is already on the stage, has been on stage the whole time, and for better or worse everyone knows how many elephants the god can lift.

*i.e., one not held by any of the 3 posters that make up more than 50% of TBB posts.

I understand that is their position, I also think it�s loving stupid and based in the genre mindset that Plot and Worldbuilding are more important than those pesky literary things like creating a mood or reinforcing a theme.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 21:59

Sham bam bamina!: Nov 6, 2012; ƨtupid cat

ulmont posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trobriand_Islands#Marriage_customs

Holy moly.

quote:

Cricket [edit]

After tribal conflict was banned, cricket became a replacement for war in the Trobriand culture. The colonial powers were appalled with the violence and sexual displays associated with tribal warfare.^[8] Matches are often played between all male teams and last for several months.^[8] There are often feasts for the winning team.^[9] While regular cricket is played around the world, these islanders add their own elements which reflect their culture. Since this sport resembles war, there is not a limit on team size. For example, every time a team scores there is a special dance ritual involved. These dances are an adaptation of the former war rituals. Therefore, they consist of taunts and jeers often criticizing the other team.^[10] "The words are sexual metaphors, used as one team taunts the other and exhibits their physical and sexual prowess to the appraising eyes of the young women on the sidelines"^[8] Often, there is also magic involved in this sporting event.^[8] Teams will use charms and incantations to gain an advantage in the match. For example, a spell could be used to make the team less efficient in scoring.^[8] The visiting team is expected to lose when visiting a rival island.^[8] However, when this is not the case, there are often reports of vandalism and arson when matches end unfavorably for the home team.^[8] During such events, yam houses are burned which is considered a major insult.^[8] In essence, this form of cricket has a more aggressive feel and is an important part of Trobriand life.^[10]

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:01

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Doctor Faustine posted:

I understand that is their position, I also think it�s loving stupid and based in the genre mindset that Plot and Worldbuilding are more important than those pesky literary things like creating a mood or reinforcing a theme.

I suspect at least some moods and themes can be created or reinforced without hiding the ball.

But, to take this back to Rothfuss specifically, Temerant has both types of magic at their extremes. Sympathy is pretty logically worked out. Whatever the hell the Chandrian and the Fae are doing is almost completely unexplained. Naming is somewhere in between.

Which type of magic do you find more interesting or think Rothfuss gets more benefit from? I'm not sure Naming is - despite being the source of the title - really moving things forward in an interesting way, and God knows the Fae's magic did very little useful or interesting thus far.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:10

Doctor Faustine: Sep 2, 2018

ulmont posted:

I suspect at least some moods and themes can be created or reinforced without hiding the ball.

But, to take this back to Rothfuss specifically, Temerant has both types of magic at their extremes. Sympathy is pretty logically worked out. Whatever the hell the Chandrian and the Fae are doing is almost completely unexplained. Naming is somewhere in between.

Which type of magic do you find more interesting or think Rothfuss gets more benefit from? I'm not sure Naming is - despite being the source of the title - really moving things forward in an interesting way, and God knows the Fae's magic did very little useful or interesting thus far.

All of Rothfuss� magic sucks because none of it is thematically relevant.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:12

Sham bam bamina!: Nov 6, 2012; ƨtupid cat

What, exactly, are the themes that it should be relevant to?

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:15

Doctor Faustine: Sep 2, 2018

Naming should engage with self-discovery or the nature of truth vs. legends, but it never meaningfully does. I can�t think of anything thematic the fae magic or sympathy could hook into, which makes them feel even more like superfluous window-dressing.

But I think it�s pretty clear that Rothfuss doesn�t really care about theme much to begin with.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:23

TheGreatEvilKing: Mar 28, 2016

One of the big problems is that people want to write about power fantasy mages, but you need to keep up the pretense that this isn't a masturbatory power fantasy. Very few authors are going to actually make their wizards fantastical and it's much more difficult to write about the Raven King rather than "me but if I could set jocks on fire and impress women".

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:48

Doctor Faustine: Sep 2, 2018

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

One of the big problems is that people want to write about power fantasy mages, but you need to keep up the pretense that this isn't a masturbatory power fantasy. Very few authors are going to actually make their wizards fantastical and it's much more difficult to write about the Raven King rather than "me but if I could set jocks on fire and impress women".

Just ban men from writing fantasy.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:51

ElGroucho: Nov 1, 2005; We already - What about sticking our middle fingers up... That was insane; Fun Shoe

Oh, I thought people were ironically defending these books, lmao, my bad

# ? Feb 12, 2019 23:18

ElGroucho: Nov 1, 2005; We already - What about sticking our middle fingers up... That was insane; Fun Shoe

the DM - Ok, so what character are you going to play in our D&D campaign?

A 6 year old- I'm gonna be a bard. No wait! Then I multiclass in to pure rogue. Then, my character goes to wizard school, and then he goes to ninja college. And he is the bestest and goodest at everything! Yippee! And he gives big smooches to all the girls *hehehe*

# ? Feb 12, 2019 23:21

my bony fealty: Oct 1, 2008

I know exactly one person who likes Rothfuss and that is my repressed Texan community college dropout cousin; everything else he reads is YA fantasy. Good lad, had potential, shame about his situation.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 23:39

Doctor Faustine: Sep 2, 2018

I know a weird number of people who like Rothfuss, even people who usually have better (if not necessarily good) taste.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 23:45

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

paraphrasing myself because why not posted:

My boyfriend and I were on the ropes, we knew the end was near for us, and as a result we were fighting a lot. Well at some point my boyfriend in an attempt to bridge the divide gave me The Name of the Wind as a recommendation and I took it seriously because he's never been much of a book reader so I thought that it must be at least good to catch his attention.

Now I quickly realized that this was not the case once I got past the introduction. I actually like the intro, it's well executed IMO but then I got to the childhood flashback and gave up. Later my boyfriend asked me about it while we were on a date and I admitted I had found it too boring to finish.

This was a mistake because he got pissed at me. All the way to dinner he wouldn't shut up about it. He kept talking about what a great author Rothfuss was, how he had written such great characters and HIJK how could you not try to finish it!!!???

I promised to read it just to get us through dinner. I never followed up on this, instead I read a bunch of summaries online and one guy's scathing hate-review. Whenever my boyfriend asked me about it I told him the only truth I could: the story has potential but the execution is really rough and Rothfuss needs to improve to truly earn his reputation. He was sullen when he heard this but otherwise he didn't have an outburst like that one time before dinner.

Fast forward and we're broken up for a few weeks, not speaking etc, I start receiving text messages from my now ex at 3AM. Most of it is complaints about me, like the fact that I love my niece and nephew more than I loved him, how abusive and evil I was for not wanting to quit my job to move in with him, I was a psycho bitch, etc.

And then we got to Patrick Rothfuss. I have no idea what made him do it but in the middle of the rant he admitted that he knew we were over when I disrespected Rothfuss. He knew I would never understand true literature. He knew I couldn't appreciate a great writer because I'm a pretentious idiot that loves the Lord of the Rings the most boring book of all time. Rothfuss has sold thousands of books and you haven't sold any HIJK! You're just jealous because he's successful and you're a woman! (This is not verbatim, this is what I remember from a while ago and I deleted these texts a long time ago.)

So just to put that in perspective my ex admitted that he had wanted to break it off with me ever since I told him I didn't The Name of the Wind which means he kept up the facade for at least a few months. And it bothered him so much he informed me of this at 3 in the morning at least two weeks after we had broken up. So the real reason we broke up was goddamn Rothfuss.

Like I said in the past: it�s Twilight for boys. Rothfuss has decent enough prose that he can trick people into thinking that they�re reading something good, and he has some legitimate potential, but his execution is rough.

It�s weird how cults spring up around these pulpy fiction novels. My ex is not the first person I�ve met that�s tied a lot of his nerd identity into the �Rothfuss is a great writer� canard. The thing is, I don�t think even Rothfuss would agree with how shrill and defensive his fans can get.

# ? Feb 13, 2019 00:03

my bony fealty: Oct 1, 2008

your ex owned himself with that "thousands of books" thing given that LotR is the best selling fiction book of all time

and wrapping your personal identity up with Rothfuss, that too

what hath fandom wrought

# ? Feb 13, 2019 00:11

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

my bony fealty posted:

what hath fandom wrought

various fluids

# ? Feb 13, 2019 00:13

Sham bam bamina!: Nov 6, 2012; ƨtupid cat

I have to admit that I didn't expect this mod challenge to turn BravestOfTheLamps into Avshalom Jr.

# ? Feb 13, 2019 00:20

pikachode: Jan 21, 2019; by R. Guyovich

Sham bam bamina! posted:

I have to admit that I didn't expect this mod challenge to turn BravestOfTheLamps into Avshalom Jr.

i have no son

# ? Feb 13, 2019 01:49

Evil Fluffy: Jul 13, 2009; Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

Sham bam bamina! posted:

Found this while looking for the TV Tropes take on the issue:

Truly, Kvothe showed his brilliance when he suffered for years as a street urchin in Tarbean before one day deciding he could just not be poor gutter trash anymore. :v:

Cicero posted:

Systemic magic appeals to a lot of people because "I dunno a wizard did it" is or at least can be very deus ex machina-y.

One of the... more interesting characters in the Riftwar books was a guy whose views on magic was literally "magic doesn't exist, it's just people messing with the stuff that makes up existence" and shows people how to do specific things at several different points in the series.

my bony fealty posted:

put it another way more fantasy authors should be Catholic (and less Mormon)

I'll take Sanderson over people like GRRM and Rothfuss any day.

my bony fealty posted:

your ex owned himself with that "thousands of books" thing given that LotR is the best selling fiction book of all time

And it's the basis for almost all modern fantasy writing. Either directly or by people whose inspiration was itself inspired by Tolkien.

# ? Feb 13, 2019 03:16

pikachode: Jan 21, 2019; by R. Guyovich

Evil Fluffy posted:

I'll take Sanderson over people like GRRM and Rothfuss any day.

i will feed sanderson, grrm and rothfuss to each other

# ? Feb 13, 2019 03:47

Zoracle Zed: Jul 10, 2001

Evil Fluffy posted:

I'll take Sanderson over people like GRRM and Rothfuss any day.

why? i mean it's whatever the opposite of sophie's choice is anyway but i'm curious

# ? Feb 13, 2019 04:39

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

my bony fealty posted:

your ex owned himself with that "thousands of books" thing given that LotR is the best selling fiction book of all time

and wrapping your personal identity up with Rothfuss, that too

what hath fandom wrought

he probably identified really heavily with the "broke student who is too proud to get a real job" aspect of Kvothe because that was basically him. He barely finished his degree on time and when he was let go from his first job out of college, he stopped looking and just lived with his mom and dad for years. His only plan to leave was a scheme where one of his (much harder working and generally more reliable in hindsight) friends would buy a house and he would just "pay rent" to live there, but only if it was discounted of course. He had a vague idea of me moving in with them and uh, I'm sure you can imagine where it went from there.

Honestly looking at all the excerpts people have posted of Kvothe being kind of a layabout and repeatedly taking out loans he couldn't pay back, it all fits. It's okay to be a gormless loser that can't finish school if you bang lots of ladies and you get lots of cool names because you saw a mini dragon that was high out of its mind on tree sap or w/e.

Evil Fluffy posted:

And it's the basis for almost all modern fantasy writing. Either directly or by people whose inspiration was itself inspired by Tolkien.

[insert angry screeching about how Robert Jordan is so much better because his books are based off the VIETNAM WAR and it's such a COOLER WAR then WORLD WAR 2]

# ? Feb 13, 2019 05:30

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

HIJK posted:

[insert angry screeching about how Robert Jordan is so much better because his books are based off the VIETNAM WAR and it's such a COOLER WAR then WORLD WAR 2]

Tolkien was World War 1, if that helps. That's why Mordor is full of marshes and pits and dead bodies...much like the Western Front in 1916ish.

J.R.R. Tolkien posted:

By 1918 all but one of my close friends were dead.

https://fantastic-writers-and-the-great-war.com/war-experiences/j-r-r-tolkien/

EDIT: also, honestly, for fantasy inspired by Vietnam I prefer Glen Cook. For science fiction inspired by Vietnam I prefer David Drake (honorable mention to Joe Haldeman).

ulmont fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Feb 13, 2019

# ? Feb 13, 2019 06:11

A human heart: Oct 10, 2012

I bet tolkien was happy about ww1 in the long run because, well, how else would he have been able to come up with the idea of an evil swamp?

# ? Feb 13, 2019 06:55

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

Tolkien was a big pussy

# ? Feb 13, 2019 08:15

Karnegal: Dec 24, 2005; Is it... safe?

pikachode posted:

i will feed sanderson, grrm and rothfuss to each other

GRRM is certainly not the greatest or anything, but he's definitely out of Rothfuss' league, meanwhile Sanderson has written one good book (The Emperor's Soul). His other stuff ranges from serviceable filler to pretty bad.

# ? Feb 13, 2019 08:16

Karnegal: Dec 24, 2005; Is it... safe?

Double post

# ? Feb 13, 2019 08:16

pikachode: Jan 21, 2019; by R. Guyovich

Karnegal posted:

Sanderson has written one good book (The Emperor's Soul)

i'm about to read this and am filled with optimism

# ? Feb 13, 2019 08:19

mp5: Jan 1, 2005; Stroke of luck!

HIJK posted:

Like I said in the past: it�s Twilight for boys. Rothfuss has decent enough prose that he can trick people into thinking that they�re reading something good, and he has some legitimate potential, but his execution is rough.

It�s weird how cults spring up around these pulpy fiction novels. My ex is not the first person I�ve met that�s tied a lot of his nerd identity into the �Rothfuss is a great writer� canard. The thing is, I don�t think even Rothfuss would agree with how shrill and defensive his fans can get.

I once disrespected Nickelback on a second date with a lady who it turned out loved them so I want you to know I appreciate this tale

# ? Feb 13, 2019 09:15

ElGroucho: Nov 1, 2005; We already - What about sticking our middle fingers up... That was insane; Fun Shoe

Sanderson is supremely overrated. I've read 6 of his books, and they're entertaining, but forgettable as hell.

# ? Feb 13, 2019 12:28

Atlas Hugged: Mar 12, 2007; Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all

ElGroucho posted:

Sanderson is supremely overrated. I've read 6 of his books, and they're entertaining, but forgettable as hell.

If you've read one thing he's written, you've read everything. It's all the same formula and characters.

I like Jordan for what it is, but I'm not going to pretend it's anything other than pulp fantasy. Even though he doesn't go into much detail on how the magic works, the characters know how it works so it's not really a big mystery. It's just physics. But I also think it's not supposed to be magic. It's supposed to be just physics and part of the conflict is people misunderstanding and fearing what it's capable of.

# ? Feb 14, 2019 11:46