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Some Numbers posted:The configuration turns the ships into X-Wings, so I can't imagine why you wouldn't take it. Presumably it costs points and through the app they also have the option of giving it less desirable upgrade slots. Maybe the had to take out the launchers to fit the bigger shield generators or something. Also for having only recently started the game i already find myself eyeing the separatists as a second faction way too much...
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Feb 11, 2019 22:00
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Some Numbers posted:The configuration turns the ships into X-Wings, so I can't imagine why you wouldn't take it. Price is the reason you woudln't take it. Presumably the base ship is pretty cheap and this upgrade costs a decent chunk of change. +1 attack, +2 shields is really good. Probably 12-18 points for that upgrade.
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Feb 11, 2019 22:02
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Bistromatic posted:Presumably it costs points and through the app they also have the option of giving it less desirable upgrade slots. You and me both fam. I'm currently flying scum but I will always love murderbots
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Feb 11, 2019 22:23
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I'm going Sep too, and my fiancée is grabbing republic. Seriously, get your SO into this game, cause your buy in costs drop by 50%
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Feb 11, 2019 22:24
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Murderbots are presumably hyperspace legal. So are Y-Wings with Ion Turrets 
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Feb 11, 2019 22:28
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Some Numbers posted:The configuration turns the ships into X-Wings, so I can't imagine why you wouldn't take it. The other one is an extra eyeball in bullseye, which assuming it's significantly cheaper is pretty solid.
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Feb 11, 2019 23:16
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thespaceinvader posted:The other one is an extra eyeball in bullseye, which assuming it's significantly cheaper is pretty solid. True, I forgot about that one. Though it looks like it also takes up a Modification slot? That could be relevant.
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Feb 11, 2019 23:35
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Some Numbers posted:True, I forgot about that one. It does yes. At a guess that's to prevent it comboing with Afterburners.
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Feb 11, 2019 23:39
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Darth Maul is gonna be the 2.0 Dengar, calling it now. Big base bully that's hard to pin down. canyoneer posted:Murderbots are presumably hyperspace legal.
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Feb 12, 2019 00:48
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bunnyofdoom posted:I'm going Sep too, and my fiancée is grabbing republic. That's not true. I convinced my SO to play but I'm still the one buying almost all the ships because I literally can't stop myself from buying tiny ships 
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Feb 12, 2019 00:55
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I'm buying one of the new B-wings even though I already the 2 from 1st edition. At most I occasionally fly Ten Numb as a gimmick. I'll likely never fly 3 at once. But goddamn, it spins!
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Feb 12, 2019 01:14
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Floppychop posted:I'm buying one of the new B-wings even though I already the 2 from 1st edition. At least you didn't buy 4 of them during 1.0 like I did. Only flew them once in a random tournament I showed up at. Won though, so that was dope. Haven't flown Quad-Bs competitively since, but I don't get to play very often anymore.
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Feb 12, 2019 01:19
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I too am excited to fly a swarm of dopey droids
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Feb 12, 2019 18:20
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So, I'm running Poe, Nein and Ello. Two of them have HLC, and since I had a slot, I gave one a free jamming beam. My question, is which one shoudl have it? Poe: I6 means he'll strip locks/tokens before anyone gets to to shoot. However, I6 also means he's more likely to get his bullseye Ello: White Talon rolls gives him good opportunity to sweep the board, and he's not targetted as much as the others I find Nein: I mean, he wnats to be in close anyways to avoid stress, but still. (all three's ept is heroic fwiw)
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Feb 12, 2019 18:39
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Really, the only reason to use it because it's 0 points so why not. Don't expect to actually use it.
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Feb 12, 2019 19:13
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Cobbsprite posted:Really, the only reason to use it because it's 0 points so why not. Don't expect to actually use it. With the ruling that the attacker gets to pick which token/lock to strip, jamming beams are pretty solid against torpedo alpha strikes. And in that case, the higher initiative you are, the better. Saved my bacon a couple times with the four resistance fives list. But that's not super common overall. We just have a guy who just loves torpedoes here in Tulsa. I'd probably throw it on Ello in a Poe/Nien/Ello list. However, that list really wants a bid. If the bid with one beam isn't enough, start replacing HLCs.
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Feb 12, 2019 19:17
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bunnyofdoom posted:So, I'm running Poe, Nein and Ello. Two of them have HLC, and since I had a slot, I gave one a free jamming beam. My question, is which one shoudl have it? Honestly, you'll use it to good effect so little as to mostly make it irrelevant, especially as you'll have all of your ships shooting before many lists. There are a few major use cases: one: stripping locks to prevent ordnance shooting. So, Poe. two: stripping Reinforce, so, Poe. three: stripping tokens to prevent offence and/or defence buffing. So, Poe. If you're using it, you almost never want to be using it as your LAST shot of the round, so your FIRST is the best.
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Feb 12, 2019 19:39
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So I had my first few games of v2 after almost a year off and hmmmm... Iden is pretty bad design
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Feb 12, 2019 22:28
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Tekopo posted:So I had my first few games of v2 after almost a year off and hmmmm... Iden is pretty bad design Iden is pretty inoffensive TBH, it's not like TIE Swarm is lighting up even the hyperspace meta.
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Feb 12, 2019 22:35
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I don't think she's that OP, I just think that taking design elements like that is a bad direction to go into and this kind of abilities were some of the worse things that STAW did way back.
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Feb 12, 2019 22:40
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Tekopo posted:I don't think she's that OP, I just think that taking design elements like that is a bad direction to go into and this kind of abilities were some of the worse things that STAW did way back. Personally I think it's fine because it's limited both in terms of how often you can use it, and because it only works on trash ships anyway. I'd be worried if anything like that cameup on anything tougher tho.
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Feb 12, 2019 22:43
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Tekopo posted:I don't think she's that OP, I just think that taking design elements like that is a bad direction to go into and this kind of abilities were some of the worse things that STAW did way back. Why? While I'd agree that Iden "feels bad" for the player who had their attack negated, I don't think that "feels bad" is inherently bad design. And even if I did, it's way less offensive than first edition Biggs, for sure, and probably less so than second edition Selfless.
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Feb 12, 2019 22:46
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I think t's a low interactivity, low strategy type of design. It's the same issue for me with the original Palpatine, and the way that they fixed Palpatine should have been the way that effects such as these should have been formulated from the start, because at the moment you can always pick the correct time to use it due to the way that the effect works.
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Feb 12, 2019 22:58
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Iden is legitimately bad design, because it punishes the player for engaging with the game and there is effectively zero counterplay. You can't pick Iden off, and there's very little you can do to force it to split away from the group. Iden gets to choose when it activates so they can roll defense dice first and see if they get lucky and don't need it (rather than say, activating it before defense dice are rolled and negating any large incoming hit). You can't block it, strip the ability early, or anything else. It's going to stop a nasty hit or a killing blow, guaranteed. It's just bad. It and Supernatural Reflexes were the two cards I saw on my first glances at 2e and went "Are you kidding?" Now, luckily for everyone, TIE Swarm hasn't been a huge contender so far in the meta, which may or may not change. But Iden itself is pretty poor design.
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Feb 12, 2019 23:02
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The Gate posted:Iden is legitimately bad design, because it punishes the player for engaging with the game and there is effectively zero counterplay. You can't pick Iden off, and there's very little you can do to force it to split away from the group. Iden gets to choose when it activates so they can roll defense dice first and see if they get lucky and don't need it (rather than say, activating it before defense dice are rolled and negating any large incoming hit). You can't block it, strip the ability early, or anything else. It's going to stop a nasty hit or a killing blow, guaranteed. I can accept that Iden is both "poorly designed" and "not overpowered" as you've defined it. Also I'm of the firm opinion that all pre-maneuver repositioning needs to happen in the System Phase. Just like decloaking. For the same reasons. The only exception is Ailerons because it's mandatory AND therefore fundamentally baked into the price of the ship and its dial.
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Feb 12, 2019 23:14
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The Gate posted:Iden is legitimately bad design, because it punishes the player for engaging with the game and there is effectively zero counterplay. You can't pick Iden off, and there's very little you can do to force it to split away from the group. Iden gets to choose when it activates so they can roll defense dice first and see if they get lucky and don't need it (rather than say, activating it before defense dice are rolled and negating any large incoming hit). You can't block it, strip the ability early, or anything else. It's going to stop a nasty hit or a killing blow, guaranteed.
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Feb 12, 2019 23:29
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Hard disagree about Iden. It's only working on basic TIE fighters, and it only protects against one attack the whole game. You're usually blocking one or two damage with it, three at most. Yeah, the ability to choose when it goes off is pretty flexible, but it's still not game-breaking. She's still a basic TIE fighter, and it only works on other basic TIE fighters. "Punishes you for engaging with the game"? Get out of here with that dumb poo poo.
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Feb 12, 2019 23:29
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I'll allow it because it feels like you could rearrange and replace very few words and have an appropriate statement about OG Palpatine which is the only card I have ever loving despised. Difference of course as established being that Iden presumably isn't the centerpiece of 50-75% of lists in the room.
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Feb 12, 2019 23:36
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Iden is also very, very low impact. She works exactly once. The threat of her is an interesting piece of gameplay that is usually to the benefit of her opponent, because they can just shoot whichever TIE is the softest target, knowing that they're shooting Iden's charge rather than that TIE, so you don't have to worry about getting the range 3 shot on Howl, you can just go for the 2 or 1 on Academy Pilot #3. I'd concur that the design could be better, but I'm not sure how you'd accomplish the same basic principle (i.e. account for the fragility of important TIE fighters, and reduce the variance of Howl getting popped at r3 with focus in the first round) without uing basically the same design one way or the other. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Feb 12, 2019 |
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Feb 12, 2019 23:42
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Cobbsprite posted:Hard disagree about Iden. It's only working on basic TIE fighters, and it only protects against one attack the whole game. You're usually blocking one or two damage with it, three at most. Yeah, the ability to choose when it goes off is pretty flexible, but it's still not game-breaking. She's still a basic TIE fighter, and it only works on other basic TIE fighters. Not an empty quote. Seriously, people would complain about Iden but not how Magva's ability is more or less "lol let's stretch this game out and hope the RNG of your dice is good!" or how Defenders with Juke feels to the point of unfair sometimes? Keep in mind I'm fine with those ships, but Iden is like the least of the problems in this game. Iden is loving great. enigmahfc fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Feb 12, 2019 |
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Feb 12, 2019 23:54
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This whole conversation honestly feels like two groups of people talking past each other
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Feb 12, 2019 23:58
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The part of Iden that goes against the grain of the 2.0 design philosophy is that you can roll your defense dice first. You should have to spend it to cancel based solely on the attack roll. The actual effect of the ability is necessary to ameliorate the high initiative alpha strike bugbear (personified by Wedge with a proton torpedo) which the tie swarm has little counter play against without splitting up and defeating the design of the swarm abilities. You want bad feels tho, fly a tie swarm against Luke. Edit: looking at the wave 4 stuff, the new R2-C4 Republic droid that spends an evade to turn an eyeball to a hit surely puts to bed the purple evade whining. hoiyes fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Feb 13, 2019 |
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Feb 13, 2019 00:20
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hoiyes posted:The part of Iden that goes against the grain of the 2.0 design philosophy is that you can roll your defense dice first. You should have to spend it to cancel based solely on the attack roll. Yeah, in 2e you should expect to pay big points for perfect information. That's why supernatural Reflexes scaling to a zillion points on high initiative is a good thing. ConfusedUs posted:I can accept that Iden is both "poorly designed" and "not overpowered" as you've defined it. I can agree with this. If Iden were cheaper she'd be everywhere. She's pretty explicitly anti torpedo tech
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Feb 13, 2019 05:20
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canyoneer posted:Yeah, in 2e you should expect to pay big points for perfect information. That's why supernatural Reflexes scaling to a zillion points on high initiative is a good thing. 40 points for a fuckign TIE fighter IS big points.
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Feb 13, 2019 10:25
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thespaceinvader posted:40 points for a fuckign TIE fighter IS big points. It's 40 points to guarantee Howlrunner lives, which is one of the strongest pilots on the game. Unless you're trying to argue that Iden is somehow too expensive? Also: hoiyes posted:The part of Iden that goes against the grain of the 2.0 design philosophy is that you can roll your defense dice first. You should have to spend it to cancel based solely on the attack roll. This. Iden should be used before the defense roll, and it would be acceptable. Getting to pick after you see if you got lucky or not is bad design in the scope of 2e. With a lot of the things that were preying on TIE Swarm going away in Hyperspace and the points update, it's entirely possible we'll see them start to cause havoc. Gotta wait and see.
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Feb 13, 2019 14:56
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The Gate posted:It's 40 points to guarantee Howlrunner lives, which is one of the strongest pilots on the game. Unless you're trying to argue that Iden is somehow too expensive? So it's 80 points for Howlrunner  I'm not saying Iden is too dear, I'm saying that 40 points is expensive. It needs to be expensive, but it's not like she's not at least a fifth of your list.
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Feb 13, 2019 15:03
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thespaceinvader posted:So it's 80 points for Howlrunner Sure, but it's not in a vacuum. TIE Fighters are cheap as hell in general, so realistically the expense isn't a serious concern. You can fit Iden, Howl, plus 5 more TIEs, which is literally just a straight upgrade from the 1e Swarm. Or you can run the I4-5 Swarm with 6 of them instead. Having Howlrunner live through the initial engagement is huge, and was often a deciding factor in the game in 1e. Anyway, feels like I'm beating a dead horse so I'll shut up about Iden now, and fingers crossed it doesn't become a monster list going forward.
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Feb 13, 2019 15:20
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Plus more often than not you use it to save someone other than Howl. I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm saying it's fine as it is.
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Feb 13, 2019 15:25
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Those OP TIE Fighters, ruining everyone's brackets. Iden is fine, jeez. TIEs are ships that can get evaporated in one roll a lot of the times. Making it TWO rolls is just fine. This is also the most anyone has ever spoken of Iden since 2.0 was released like 5 months ago, so obviously no one is really worried. Plus, you have to willingly choose to fly TIEs for her to work, so jokes on the person who flies her! (I'm that idiot who flies her) enigmahfc fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Feb 13, 2019 |
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Feb 13, 2019 15:31
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enigmahfc posted:Those OP TIE Fighters, ruining everyone's brackets. This. Plus people are forgetting the skill it takes to fly such formations. It's not like this list flies itself like lets say, 3 Upsilons. It takes skill to fly these formations so having Iden only rewards a player that can keep this list going round after round.
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Feb 13, 2019 15:44
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