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Yeah, civil asset forfeiture is literally legalized theft. All they have to do is say they suspect that you have too much cash or property, and the onus is on you to prove that it came from legal sources. Didn't keep track of all your receipts, invoices, pay stubs, gifts, and unofficial pay in cash for jobs? Too bad, it's clearly the result of crime and you're not getting it back. The cops will then gladly spend all the money they stole from you on their own department. It's a protection racket with a badge.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:09
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EvilGenius posted:It's not like the police are taking the money there and then if he has no explanation for it. He has to go to court and explain where that money came from, which is almost certainly drugs. Think this through a bit further. Does that money become illegal for him to possess because of where he got it from? Even if you're right- which is a big if- how illegal does the source of money need to be before it becomes okay for the state to seize it? How much of someone's money can they take? How much proof does the state need? Because right now the proof requirement is "none," the amount taken is "all," and the illegality is "any, and you have to prove otherwise."
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Feb 14, 2019 20:12
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EvilGenius posted:It's not like the police are taking the money there and then if he has no explanation for it. He has to go to court and explain where that money came from, which is almost certainly drugs. Really a mismatched name/post combo here
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Feb 14, 2019 20:13
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EvilGenius posted:It's not like the police are taking the money there and then if he has no explanation for it. He has to go to court and explain where that money came from, which is almost certainly drugs. Pig spotted.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:13
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vyelkin posted:No, he has to go to court and prove that the money did not come from drugs. Civil asset forfeiture is hosed up because instead of putting any responsibility on the cops at all to make a case that a crime was committed, you have to prove that a crime wasn't, which is basically impossible. The cops take your poo poo and you don't get it back, the end. Does this not amount to the same thing? If he can prove the money came from work, or the till of his shop, he's proved it's not from drugs. Look, I get the issue with the law, but equally why the gently caress else would you have hundreds of pounds of loose cash just laying around? EvilGenius has a new favorite as of 20:16 on Feb 14, 2019 |
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Feb 14, 2019 20:13
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EvilGenius posted:Does this not amount to the same thing? If he can prove the money came from work, or the till of his shop, he's proved it's not from drugs. you fool. you idiot.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:15
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EvilGenius posted:Does this not amount to the same thing? If he can prove the money came from work, or the till of his shop, he's proved it's not from drugs. Have you never once made a mistake with your financial documents and receipts? Do you have the ability to trace every single dollar in your possession to exactly where it came from without fail? You could show your expenses and income and all the numbers would match without question?
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Feb 14, 2019 20:16
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EvilGenius posted:Does this not amount to the same thing? If he can prove the money came from work, or the till of his shop, he's proved it's not from drugs. Sure is easy to prove where exactly cash came from. Sure isn't like even if you can prove you got paid that much, you can't prove it's those same bills. Sure is easy to prove that you weren't GOING to buy drugs, so they'll take it anyway. Glad it's illegal to literally just have money in the US (and now the UK!), as long as you're poor enough that you can't make the police face consequences if they take your poo poo! I thought you were doing a bit or something, but I guess your name threw me. If you need an explanation of why this is hosed up, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks
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Feb 14, 2019 20:17
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EvilGenius posted:Does this not amount to the same thing? If he can prove the money came from work, or the till of his shop, he's proved it's not from drugs.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:18
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jobson groeth posted:Sure it's lazy posting to post mcafee but I'm a lazy poster Leonard Cohen was right to cut this verse; it’s really not up to his standards.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:18
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Jurgan posted:Leonard Cohen was right to cut this verse; it’s really not up to his standards. lol drat
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Feb 14, 2019 20:19
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Hey, they crunched the numbers and they just weren't going to be able to afford that TACTICAL MOBILE COMMAND CENTER/RV that the chief wanted with the usual speed traps.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:20
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chitoryu12 posted:Have you never once made a mistake with your financial documents and receipts? Do you have the ability to trace every single dollar in your possession to exactly where it came from without fail? You could show your expenses and income and all the numbers would match without question? Would the burden of proof here not be beyond reasonable doubt? In which case, if you run a shop you can throw doubt on the charge by simply saying 'I run a shop'?
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Feb 14, 2019 20:21
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EvilGenius posted:Look, I get the issue with the law, but equally why the gently caress else would you have hundreds of pounds of loose cash just laying around? lots of reasons, there are plenty of people who conduct legitimate business in cash. saying someone has lots of cash so they must be up to no good is the same as saying anyone out on the streets past midnight must be up to no good
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Feb 14, 2019 20:21
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Cleretic posted:Yeah, I grew up in a city with no real Jewish population to speak of. When you're that far disconnected, the most prominent Jewish figures in media to you might well be Krusty the Klown and Kyle from South Park (they were in my case), and that's not exactly a prime starting point. There were like two jewish kids in my elementary school , and we all wanted them in our class because that way we'd get a Christmas Party AND a Chanukkah Party before winter break.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:25
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Sunswipe posted:gently caress off. It should up to the police to prove the money came from crime, not the person wandering around with a wad of cash to somehow prove that it isn't if we're going to try and keep up the pretense that our justice system works on the assumption of innocent until proven guilty. I'm kind of drawing parallels to drink driving here. If you fail to provide a breath test you can be prosecuted, even though the police haven't proved you were drink driving. In the same sense, if you're carrying around hundreds or thousands of pounds in cash you're almost certainly a criminal. luxury handset posted:lots of reasons, there are plenty of people who conduct legitimate business in cash. saying someone has lots of cash so they must be up to no good is the same as saying anyone out on the streets past midnight must be up to no good Yes, and those people probably won't be followed up by the police, because they'll be able to immediately explain it. EvilGenius has a new favorite as of 20:28 on Feb 14, 2019 |
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Feb 14, 2019 20:25
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EvilGenius posted:Would the burden of proof here not be beyond reasonable doubt? In which case, if you run a shop you can throw doubt on the charge by simply saying 'I run a shop'? That's criminal asset forfeiture. Civil asset forfeiture does not require beyond a reasonable doubt, it requires preponderance of evidence. The cops take your money and keep it until you go in front of a judge and prove that it was not obtained through illegal means, which will 100% certainly require a lawyer, who will likely cost more money than the amount the cops took from you. It's theft.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:27
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EvilGenius posted:Would the burden of proof here not be beyond reasonable doubt? In which case, if you run a shop you can throw doubt on the charge by simply saying 'I run a shop'? No, these aren't full fledged criminal cases. They aren't proving you actually committed a crime. They're saying they suspect the property is part of a crime and it's up to you to prove it wasn't to get it back. Which means you'll almost certainly never see it again.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:27
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EvilGenius posted:I'm kind of drawing parallels to drink driving here. If you fail to provide a breath test you can be prosecuted, even though the police haven't proved you were drink driving. In the same sense, if you're carrying around hundreds or thousands of pounds in cash you're almost certainly a criminal. In 2017, 6.5% of American households did not have a bank account. At an average of 2.58 people per household, that's approximately 16.8 million people in the US who don't have a bank account and therefore keep all their money either in cash or in physical assets, which can also be seized in civil asset forfeiture.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:29
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EvilGenius posted:I'm kind of drawing parallels to drink driving here. If you fail to provide a breath test you can be prosecuted, even though the police haven't proved you were drink driving. In the same sense, if you're carrying around hundreds or thousands of pounds in cash you're almost certainly a criminal. Or perhaps you withdrew the money to buy something in cash? I have been to ski gear swap meets and withdrawn a few hundred in cash for those. I can imagine hundreds of situations in which a person may have cash or elect to solely use cash. I imagine folks who are paid primarily in cash may also have a fair bit of it as well.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:29
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vyelkin posted:That's criminal asset forfeiture. You get free representation in the UK (but you have to pay the costs if you're found guilty). OK, preponderance of evidence is hosed up. vyelkin posted:In 2017, 6.5% of American households did not have a bank account. I would imagine these figures are much, much lower in the UK where this happened. Barely anyone under 30 even uses cash. EvilGenius has a new favorite as of 20:32 on Feb 14, 2019 |
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Feb 14, 2019 20:29
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EvilGenius posted:Yes, and those people probably won't be followed up by the police, because they'll be able to immediately explain it. Wrong. The police don't care and will take the money anyway, because that's how police departments fund themselves.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:30
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why should i have to explain to some loving pig where my cash comes from?
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Feb 14, 2019 20:30
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EvilGenius posted:Yes, and those people probably won't be followed up by the police, because they'll be able to immediately explain it. you aren't quite getting it, and if a thread full of goons can't pierce your shell then i doubt i can contribute much i'll just say that there are plenty of reasons people would deal largely in cash for business. purchasing cars, livestock, estate lots, etc. is business that won't generate proper receipts, and the cops have incentive to tangle people up in costly litigation because if the cops win they get a pile of free money it's a huge problem and you could educate yourself if you're interested or you could be stubborn and wrong, which is what most people choose because it's easier
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Feb 14, 2019 20:32
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don't worry pal looks like your uk cops are gonna be rolling tanks onto your front lawns soon too
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Feb 14, 2019 20:33
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EvilGenius posted:I would imagine these figures are much, much lower in the UK where this happened. Barely anyone under 30 even uses cash. The first result in Google says there are 1.6 million adults in the UK without bank accounts. Usually poor and/or already marginalized people, who are exactly the type cops love to pick on and also exactly the type who aren't going to go to court to get their money back.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:34
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EvilGenius posted:Would the burden of proof here not be beyond reasonable doubt? In which case, if you run a shop you can throw doubt on the charge by simply saying 'I run a shop'? Watch the thing I linked. It's absolutely not enough and they don't care if they make you miss rent or if you literally can't afford to miss work to go to court to defend your money. There's an exact example in there. EvilGenius posted:Look, I get the issue with the law, but equally why the gently caress else would you have hundreds of pounds of loose cash just laying around? My family gives me cash for birthdays. Waitresses, strippers, jobs that get tips, they have cash lying around. Really dude, how are you not getting "It's insane to have to miss work and go to court just because a cop saw that I had cash"?
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Feb 14, 2019 20:37
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EvilGenius what you are not getting about cops in America is that they can and will do whatever they want, up to and including killing you, in full knowledge that they'll never be punished. Legal argle bargle doesn't matter. They operate with impunity.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:38
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Tater Love 
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please watch my 8 part youtube series, taxation is theft but civil asset forfeiture is good and cool
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Feb 14, 2019 20:39
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luxury handset posted:you aren't quite getting it, and if a thread full of goons can't pierce your shell then i doubt i can contribute much Yes I get that the law is massively prone to corruption, and opposition to it seems to be proportional to how corrupt you believe the police are. I believe in the majority of cases where thousands of cash is discovered, in the UK, the police honestly and correctly believe it's linked to crime, based on the circumstances of the discovery of the money. Call me naive if you like. TLDR: wow a lot of drug dealers itt. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 14, 2019 20:40
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EvilGenius posted:Yes I get that the law is massively prone to corruption, and opposition to it seems to be proportional to how corrupt you believe the police are. I believe in the majority of cases where thousands of cash is discovered, in the UK, the police honestly and correctly believe it's linked to crime, based on the circumstances of the discovery of the money. Call me naive if you like. I'm not calling you naive now, I'm calling you willfully ignorant in the face of multiple people providing further information. Good luck with that reelection campaign.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:42
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Could it be cops are assholes? No, literally everyone is a criminal
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Feb 14, 2019 20:43
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EvilGenius posted:Yes I get that the law is massively prone to corruption, and opposition to it seems to be proportional to how corrupt you believe the police are. I believe in the majority of cases where thousands of cash is discovered, in the UK, the police honestly and correctly believe it's linked to crime, based on the circumstances of the discovery of the money. Call me naive if you like. The state shouldn't have the power to arbitrarily seize your property and make you pay a lawyer to prove it's yours, no matter what country you live in. If they believe it's proceeds from crime they should have to go in front of a judge and prove that, not the other way around.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:44
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I've bought motorcycles from craigslist people using cash. I don't like to drive around with a couple thousand or whatever in cash, but it makes for quick transactions, and it's a legitimate reason to have a wad of hundreds. People carry cash around for all sorts of reasons.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:47
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EvilGenius posted:Yes I get that the law is massively prone to corruption, and opposition to it seems to be proportional to how corrupt you believe the police are. I believe in the majority of cases where thousands of cash is discovered, in the UK, the police honestly and correctly believe it's linked to crime, based on the circumstances of the discovery of the money. Call me naive if you like. I’d like to forfeit some cash for your operation since you seem to have lost track of your spine
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Feb 14, 2019 20:48
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maybe a fellow smarmy brit can articulate this better than a bunch of acab goons https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks
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Feb 14, 2019 20:50
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vyelkin posted:The state shouldn't have the power to arbitrarily seize your property and make you pay a lawyer to prove it's yours, no matter what country you live in. If they believe it's proceeds from crime they should have to go in front of a judge and prove that, not the other way around. I agree. I suppose what I'm a disagreeing with is that someone could have that much cash on them with no immediate, plausible explanation, and it not be linked to crime.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:51
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sneakyfrog posted:maybe a fellow smarmy brit can articulate this better than a bunch of acab goons I linked that myself, but drat if he isn't speeding on ahead anyway. https://twitter.com/classiclib3ral/status/1096034283502870529 https://twitter.com/classiclib3ral/status/1096035721654296576
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Feb 14, 2019 20:51
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EvilGenius posted:Yes I get that the law is massively prone to corruption, and opposition to it seems to be proportional to how corrupt you believe the police are. I believe in the majority of cases where thousands of cash is discovered, in the UK, the police honestly and correctly believe it's linked to crime, based on the circumstances of the discovery of the money. Call me naive if you like. gently caress off bootlicker
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Feb 14, 2019 20:52
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EvilGenius posted:I agree. yeah but the question is 'why the gently caress is it the cops business' you loving stooge bootlicker
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Feb 14, 2019 20:54
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