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Polo-Rican posted:it's actually very sad that you'd deny something so obvious in order to make yourself feel better about star wars lol Nute Gunray's actor speaks with an imitation of a Thai accent. This accent does not sound much like the accents used in yellowface performances, which mock consonant transpositions in Chinese or Japanese. This was discussed further upthread with specific examples. The only attribute that Watto has in common with Jewish people is his hat. Earlier, the character of Jar Jar was compared to Stepin Fetchit, a character known for being a lazy, mischievous shirker. How does that describe Jar Jar in the slightest?
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Feb 14, 2019 20:29
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Schwarzwald posted:Yoda is a stereotypical Chinese hermit, a wizen old man full of homespun wisdom who teaches the hero magic kung fu, same as in countless Shaw Bros films or, say, The Karate Kid. Only unlike a Shaw Bros film, Yoda is in a film produced and directed by white men, and unlike Karate Kid's Mr. Miyagi, he's not played by Pat Morita "speaking in his own voice" but by Frank Oz putting on a ridiculous accent. are you trying to argue that the cryptic wizened mentor stock character is inherently racialized? yoda's manner of speech doesn't mirror a historic racist put-on accent. i even obliquely pointed that out earlier when i said that I don't have a problem with subtitled alien languages, plain speaking with the actor's own accent, or completely fantastical accents. yoda's voice was what i was thinking of, in the last case. Schwarzwald posted:Jar-Jar is played by Ahmed Best. yellowface, on the other hand... Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Feb 14, 2019 |
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Feb 14, 2019 20:30
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Cease to Hope posted:Okay. I'm not arguing that Nute Gunray sounds like any actual ethnicity in any case, but rather the put-on "Asian" accent of English-language film and radio. It is an accent performed by real racists, whatever you want to call it. This is probably a Cnut gimmick account. Either way, Cease To Hope's posts are even more insufferable to read than listening to the Prequel dialogue, which is quite an accomplishment.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:31
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It's such an astonishing self own to look at a character portrayed by someone like Ahmed Best--someone who has spoken at length about the way he constructed the performance and character of Jar Jar--and conclude that it's a bigoted construction
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Feb 14, 2019 20:31
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Turn the sound off for the prequels. It’s very interesting to see how much Lucas does with visuals.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:32
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Cease to Hope posted:are you trying to argue that the cryptic wizened mentor stock character is inherently racialized? yoda's manner of speech doesn't mirror a historic racist put-on accent. He talks like a "Confucius says" joke.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:32
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Schwarzwald posted:He talks like a "Confucius says" joke. okay, fair. you're right, that's lovely.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:33
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Slutitution posted:This is probably a Cnut gimmick account. I don't think so. It's a complete 180 in terms of the style of argument. Cnut used evidence often.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:33
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I like Cnut's posts, even if the conclusions are obviously wrong
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Feb 14, 2019 20:34
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You know, no one ever says the things about the rest of the gungans they do about Jar-Jar.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:36
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One thing I've wondered about Watto is if people who haven't seen the prequels in a long time are remembering him as wearing a small yarmulke-like hat and making the Jewish association that way. But the hat is actually a pretty wide-brimmed hat that really looks nothing like a yarmulke. I mean, sure Hasidic Jews wear hats but they're just regular looking hats.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:36
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RBA Starblade posted:You know, no one ever says the things about the rest of the gungans they do about Jar-Jar. How about that
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Feb 14, 2019 20:37
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Even if it were a “Jewish hat”, Jewish hats are not racist stereotypes.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:38
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euphronius posted:Even if it were a “Jewish hat”, Jewish hats are not racist stereotypes. mods!! new thread title
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Feb 14, 2019 20:38
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Polo-Rican posted:mods!! new thread title Are you having a hard time with words.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:39
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Polo-Rican posted:mods!! new thread title You should define what you mean when you say "racist stereotype" then since you seem to be working from a different definition?
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Feb 14, 2019 20:40
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euphronius posted:Even if it were a “Jewish hat”, Jewish hats are not racist stereotypes. On it's own, no. But Watto also has some personality traits that are often used in anti-semitic stereotypes(among others), so the hat+his personality might be enough for some people to make the connection. They'd be wrong, but I do think maybe there's some of that going on in the way people reacted to him.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:42
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Basebf555 posted:On it's own, no. But Watto also has some personality traits that are often used in anti-semitic stereotypes(among others), so the hat+his personality might be enough for some people to make the connection. They'd be wrong, but I do think maybe there's some of that going on in the way people reacted to him. Like what. I’m not saying you are wrong. Genuinely curious and willing to admit I am wrong or stupid about it.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:43
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Bongo Bill posted:I don't think so. It's a complete 180 in terms of the style of argument. Cnut used evidence often. I think he gave himself away here. If it is, his gimmick is doing a bizarrely exaggerated, grotesque caricature of Star Wars critics in order to (lol) "discredit them." The commonality here is excessive word salad that doesn't have much originality to it.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:45
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Cease to Hope posted:okay, fair. you're right, that's lovely. Actually, it's fine, because Yoda is a fully realized character with agency who's shown to be deserving of dignity. Just like Obi-wan (a white guy playing the part of a magical Japanese ronin), Jar Jar Binks (a clumsy frog man who proves himself worthy of respect and comes through to save the day, played by tremendous physical performer Ahmed Best), or C3-PO (hapless house slave, Jedi killer). And all of that is a hell of a lot more important than not looking white enough, or talking white enough, or walking white enough, or being a white enough muppet. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Feb 14, 2019 |
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Feb 14, 2019 20:46
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Slutitution posted:I think he gave himself away here. If it is, his gimmick is doing a bizarrely exaggerated, grotesque caricature of Star Wars critics in order to (lol) "discredit them." The commonality here is excessive word salad that doesn't have much originality to it. Pretty good evidence
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Feb 14, 2019 20:46
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euphronius posted:Like what. I’m not saying you are wrong. Genuinely curious and willing to admit I am wrong or stupid about it. The thing with Jews is that we've kinda been attached to every negative stereotype under the sun at one point or another in history. Watto seems to enjoy his place in society as someone who is able to make a living from the hard work of others, that would be my primary guess as to what people were reacting to. Jews were seen that way in pre-war Germany because of how prominent they were in the usury business.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:48
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Waffles Inc. posted:People are just going to ignore Ahmed Best huh? Serious, don't sleep on this man. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58_OEFF_iQ0
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Feb 14, 2019 20:49
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Schwarzwald posted:Actually, it's fine, because Yoda is a fully realized character with agency who's shown to be deserving of agency. Just like Obi-wan (a white guy playing the part of a magical Japanese ronin), Jar Jar Binks (a clumsy frog man who proves himself worthy of respect and comes through to save the day, played by tremendous physical performer Ahmed Best), or C3-PO (hapless house slave, Jedi killer). Agency doesn't enter into it. Having a white guy put on the same sort of fake Asian accent that white guys used to do in the films that inspired Star Wars is distractingly racist. That distractingly racist voice draws parallels with other racist caricatures, to Phantom Menace's detriment.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:51
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The guy who did newt Gunray is of Indian descent.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:54
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Basebf555 posted:The thing with Jews is that we've kinda been attached to every negative stereotype under the sun at one point or another in history. Watto seems to enjoy his place in society as someone who is able to make a living from the hard work of others, that would be my primary guess as to what people were reacting to. Jews were seen that way in pre-war Germany because of how prominent they were in the usury business. The usury connection is very important tho and Watto doesn't do that. Watto also doesn't purely "live off" his slaves' labor. He works in his shop as well and the slaves assist him.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:55
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Nebalebadingdong posted:The usury connection is very important tho and Watto doesn't do that. Watto also doesn't purely "live off" his slaves' labor. He works in his shop as well and the slaves assist him. I understand that and most people probably understand that, I'm just kinda brainstorming here about where that connection was made in people's minds. Because it's out there, it's a pretty common statement to hear that Watto is a Jewish stereotype and I've always wondered exactly why people think that. Is it really just the hat and nothing else?
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Feb 14, 2019 20:57
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Basebf555 posted:I understand that and most people probably understand that, I'm just kinda brainstorming here about where that connection was made in people's minds. Because it's out there, it's a pretty common statement to hear that Watto is a Jewish stereotype and I've always wondered exactly why people think that. From the last iteration about this, alot of people misremember Watto as being extremely greedy, conniving and swindling, but he's not any of those things either.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:58
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Thank you for the response. I can see maybe the slavery thing. But that is like .. one aspect of Wattos character. He hardly seems suffused with racial stereotypes if at all
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Feb 14, 2019 20:58
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Yeah, Watto is more a "Hey, I'm walkin' here!" guy.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:59
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Nebalebadingdong posted:From the last iteration about this, alot of people misremember Watto as being extremely greedy, conniving and swindling, but he's not any of those things either. In fact he gets swindled and ruined.
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Feb 14, 2019 20:59
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"Mind tricks don't work on me, only money" can be interpreted as an indication of a preoccupation with money, but in context he's saying it in response to someone trying to cheat him with currency he can't spend. His stubble and the profile of his face resemble some features common in caricature art, but these are widely targeted.
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Feb 14, 2019 21:02
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"Hey Anakin we gotta order some pizza here!"
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Feb 14, 2019 21:03
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, Watto is more a "Hey, I'm walkin' here!" guy. Bongo Bill posted:His stubble and the profile of his face resemble some features common in caricature art, but these are widely targeted. It's true that Italian and Jewish stereotypes are often very similar and sometimes elements of one or the other end up being mixed together and/or confused.
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Feb 14, 2019 21:04
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euphronius posted:Thank you for the response. I can see maybe the slavery thing. The jewish stereotypes around slave involve their mass trade and sale, which Watto is also not involved in. He didn't even buy his slaves from a market but won them through gambling. Watto's whole character is: he's a small business owner, he's an rear end in a top hat (but i repeat myself), and he spends all his free time gambling with his buddies. Nebalebadingdong fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Feb 14, 2019 |
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Feb 14, 2019 21:04
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To be very clear: Stereotyping is a form of objectification. The solution to objectification is not to censor depictions of certain behaviours, because censorship only addresses the arbitrary content of a stereotype (a physical feature, an accent, a choice of food,) and not the form - the objectification itself. The solution is simply to stop objectifying: to perceive the person as a person, to say that people are people regardless of what they look like, how they talk, or what they eat. If you see Megan Fox in a bikini and say “the patriarchy has made her into an idiot slut, a subhuman bitch, we should censor breasts”, that is perpetuating objectification under the guise of wokeness. It’s a pseudo-feminism perfectly aligned with the rhetoric of the most hardcore misogynists and white supremacists. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Feb 14, 2019 |
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Feb 14, 2019 21:04
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:To be very clear: Yo, real quick, cuz I've seen you do this a few times, and I can't think of a reason not to probate you for this: Why do you use offensive slurs when you accuse other people of being racist or phobic? Cuz that's really not cool, even if you choose to use slightly more archaic ones. It doesn't matter if you're accusing someone of discriminating if you're going to use your own slurs to do so. To clarify, since you're pedantic, this is in regards to posts on the last page, which I don't want to quote.
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Feb 14, 2019 21:08
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Schwarzwald posted:Actually, it's fine, because Yoda is a fully realized character with agency who's shown to be deserving of dignity. Just like Obi-wan (a white guy playing the part of a magical Japanese ronin)... It should be noted that Obi Wan wasn't originally supposed to be white - Lucas wanted Toshiro Mifune for the role, who turned it down because he felt his English wasn't good enough. Which should make everyone sad because Toshiro Mifune would've ruled insanely, but it does speak to a vaguely Orientalist sensibility Lucas had in characterizing the Jedi and the Force. "Jedi" itself is taken from "jidaigeki," the term used to describe Edo-period samurai films. Obi Wan was intended to sound like an Asian name, as well; in Indiana Jones & the Temple of Doom, the name of the Shanghai nightclub Indy goes to is "Club Obi Wan" for this reason. Which is why I agree that Yoda evokes something similar. The idea of a wise old hermit isn't inherently racialized, but the idea of one who has intense mastery of a magical martial discipline is. The entire point of Yoda's introduction in Empire is to play up how incongruous it is that this esoteric, humble, tiny old creature who speaks in broken English might actually be the best Jedi of them all. That's an extremely old trope in kung fu movies, borrowed by the West in everything from Mr. Miyagi to Splinter.
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Feb 14, 2019 21:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The solution is simply to stop objectifying: to perceive the person as a person, to say that people are people regardless of what they look like, how they talk, or what they eat. Characters are not people - they're created by writers and, in the case of film, directed by directors - which is how these stereotypes end up embedded in the characters to begin with. SuperMechagodzilla posted:If you see Megan Fox in a bikini and say “the patriarchy has made her into an idiot slut, a subhuman bitch, we should censor breasts”, that is perpetuating objectification under the guise of wokeness. This is one of the most insane strawmen arguments I've seen on the internet in a while.
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Feb 14, 2019 21:12
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You still haven’t identified a racist stereotype wrt Watto.
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Feb 14, 2019 21:15
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