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Moridin920 posted:The fact that the sanctions are in fact loving poo poo up is beside the point I guess Judakel said kids are starving because of sanctions. I am saying they are starving for nothing. What part of that makes you think I don't think the sanctions are starving Venezuelans? Even in the hypothetical that the US somehow had the authority to starve Venezuelans to overthrow their government - an authority the US cannot possibly have - it would be counterproductive. Sanctions starve people from the bottom up. It's just pointlessly punishing Venezuelans for the crime of being under Maduro's governance. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Feb 17, 2019 |
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Feb 17, 2019 23:37
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There is nothing pointless about the US punishing Venezuelans for the crime of being under Maduro's governance. It is exactly the point.
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Feb 17, 2019 23:54
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fishmech posted:So you want the US to be massively economically involved in Venezuela? I want the US government to not use economic coercion to make the people/government of Venezuela do the thing that our government wants them to do. In some cases, sanctions can be worse than bombs. While there are VERY occasionally reasons why the US should use its economic or even military power to affect change (like imminent/ongoing war crimes against a vulnerable population i.e. rwanda), this is most definitely not a time that needs our "help." If the people of Venezuela are truly as desperate to remove Maduro as many in this thread say, sanctions aren't needed to remove him from power. Venezuelans will manage it themselves.
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Feb 18, 2019 00:00
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Concerned Citizen posted:I want the US government to not use economic coercion to make the people/government of Venezuela do the thing that our government wants them to do. In some cases, sanctions can be worse than bombs. While there are VERY occasionally reasons why the US should use its economic or even military power to affect change (like imminent/ongoing war crimes against a vulnerable population i.e. rwanda), this is most definitely not a time that needs our "help." If the people of Venezuela are truly as desperate to remove Maduro as many in this thread say, sanctions aren't needed to remove him from power. Venezuelans will manage it themselves. So is the US obligated to continue receiving 42% of Venezuela's exports and providing 38% of Venezuela's imports? Many people would say that merely being that high is already implicit economic coercion.
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Feb 18, 2019 00:10
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fishmech posted:So is the US obligated to continue receiving 42% of Venezuela's exports and providing 38% of Venezuela's imports? Many people would say that merely being that high is already implicit economic coercion. what are the consequences of cutting off that trade? use your head for once, dude, not just whatever you find on wikipedia
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Feb 18, 2019 00:14
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It is bad that Venezuelans are starving. We will increase the starvation to show them the light.
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Feb 18, 2019 00:16
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Obviously there's a humanitarian crisis, because the sanctions are gonna destroy their ability to import food and medicine. That's also why you should never politicize relief aid. To remind everyone, again, the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela predates general US sanctions and is the direct outgrowth of Maduro regime economic abuses. You know this, and are, as ever, being disingenuous.
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Feb 18, 2019 00:17
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Cease to Hope posted:what are the consequences of cutting off that trade? use your head for once, dude, not just whatever you find on wikipedia You're the one who claims they don't want "economic coercion". Surely you can see how hypothetical removal of import/export would count.
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Feb 18, 2019 00:20
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fishmech posted:You're the one who claims they don't want "economic coercion". Surely you can see how hypothetical removal of import/export would count. pretty sure I am not forums user Concerned Citizen, we don't even have the same avatar Discendo Vox posted:To remind everyone, again, the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela predates general US sanctions and is the direct outgrowth of Maduro regime economic abuses. they do, but brugroffil posted:It is bad that Venezuelans are starving.
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Feb 18, 2019 00:26
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Pener kropotkin was responding tozapplez posted:Do you agree or disagree with Maduro when he says "there is no humanitarian crisis" As ever, attempting to make the conversation about Venezuela a conversation about the United States.
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Feb 18, 2019 00:30
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Discendo Vox posted:To remind everyone, again, the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela predates general US sanctions and is the direct outgrowth of Maduro regime economic abuses. US sanctions made it 20 times worse.
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Feb 18, 2019 00:33
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Concerned Citizen posted:Venezuelans will manage it themselves. But that's the core problem, the PSUV elite have become so insulated from both political and economic consequences of their actions that the Venezuelan opposition can't manage it themselves. Not to say that these particular sanctions are justified, and I can understand why you and others would desire that the US and other countries remain entirely neutral. But with that in mind, you really have to think about what the opposition, or any opposition, could do given the measures the PSUV has undertaken to ensure de facto one party rule.
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Feb 18, 2019 00:51
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Acebuckeye13 posted:But that's the core problem, the PSUV elite have become so insulated from both political and economic consequences of their actions that the Venezuelan opposition can't manage it themselves. Not to say that these particular sanctions are justified, and I can understand why you and others would desire that the US and other countries remain entirely neutral. But with that in mind, you really have to think about what the opposition, or any opposition, could do given the measures the PSUV has undertaken to ensure de facto one party rule. It's an accelerated version of election fixing in individual US states, given whole years of absolute success to the extent that nothing is required but the barest pretenses of democratic legitimacy. You just say you hold elections and everything's perfectly legitimate and you're all just being sore losers.
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Feb 18, 2019 01:07
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Judakel posted:US sanctions made it 20 times worse. More importantly it removes any ability for the Maduro regime to get out of the crisis and financial institutions in general use austerity measures to ‘fix’ economic crisis. To pretend that a US-backed coup is interested and capable of fixing problems rooted in colonialism requires a complete suspension of history.
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Feb 18, 2019 01:24
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Presenting Nipples posted:More importantly it removes any ability for the But this crisis isn't rooted in colonialism, it's rooted in corruption and bad economic policy. The hyperinflation, the shortages, the over-reliance on oil revenues, the political crisis, all of it is because of the policies and conduct of the Chavez and Maduro governments.
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Feb 18, 2019 01:32
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Judakel posted:US sanctions made it 20 times worse. That sure is a number you pulled out of nowhere. So if people were losing 20 lbs a year because of general government corruption,incompetence,rapid inflation and economic collpase ; now with sanctions they will lose 400 lbs a year.
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Feb 18, 2019 01:44
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Acebuckeye13 posted:But this crisis isn't rooted in colonialism, it's rooted in corruption and bad economic policy. The hyperinflation, the shortages, the over-reliance on oil revenues, the political crisis, all of it is because of the policies and conduct of the Chavez and Maduro governments. Switch "Chavez and Maduro" for "Allende" and "oil revenues" for "copper exports" and you have the average shitlib's take back in the day.
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Feb 18, 2019 01:51
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Bloomberg has a nice straight forward timeline of Chavez and Maduro's presidency, trading changes in per capita income and oil prices. Is there anything in this people would like to take issue with? The Rise and Fall of Chavismo Blue Nation posted:I just spent this week dealing with my brother's death and then being extorted by the CICPC because they were framing me of murder. This was from a bit back but I just wanted to say my condolences. There no good time to deal with something like that the present circumstances aren't going to make it any easier.
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Feb 18, 2019 01:51
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Squalid posted:This was from a bit back but I just wanted to say my condolences. There no good time to deal with something like that the present circumstances aren't going to make it any easier. Seriously, that's just awful. Stay safe, Blue Nation.
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Feb 18, 2019 01:55
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Carlos Danger posted:Switch "Chavez and Maduro" for "Allende" and "oil revenues" for "copper exports" and you have the average shitlib's take back in the day. We do have exact knowledge of how the oilfields were underfunded and output was shrinking, as well as the fact they really were overreliant on oil revenue. This is not a 'shitlib take'.
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Feb 18, 2019 01:55
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Acebuckeye13 posted:But this crisis isn't rooted in colonialism, it's rooted in corruption and bad economic policy. The hyperinflation, the shortages, the over-reliance on oil revenues, the political crisis, all of it is because of the policies and conduct of the Chavez and Maduro governments. What does "bad economic policy" mean? You must know that is the phrase every US government spokesman has used when talking about Venezuela. Despite hearing over and over again, I have never actually seen it defined in this context. I think it means, "placed restrictions on US Capital." What do you think it means?
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Feb 18, 2019 01:56
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:What does "bad economic policy" mean? You must know that is the phrase every US government spokesman has used when talking about Venezuela. Despite hearing over and over again, I have never actually seen it defined in this context. Usually, it means "dared to be something but a low income resource extraction state with a comprador elite allied with western interests"
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Feb 18, 2019 01:58
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:What does "bad economic policy" mean? You must know that is the phrase every US government spokesman has used when talking about Venezuela. Despite hearing over and over again, I have never actually seen it defined in this context. He pressed the big red button that said "do food shortages"
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Feb 18, 2019 01:59
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:What does "bad economic policy" mean? You must know that is the phrase every US government spokesman has used when talking about Venezuela. Despite hearing over and over again, I have never actually seen it defined in this context. Bad economic policy such as using oil income that would be used to build new wells to compensate for old ones drying up to instead fund social programs.
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Feb 18, 2019 01:59
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unsurprisingly, that bloomberg timeline treats the US's anti-chavez, anti-maduro POV as basically fact, but it seems to be useful for an overview of what happens when.
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Feb 18, 2019 02:01
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Chomskyan posted:He pressed the big red button that said "do food shortages" Every country's leader gets a big dial that says 'food shortages and crisis' on one end and 'economic boom' on the other and honestly it's real hosed up that he refuses to move the dial off the bad side.
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Feb 18, 2019 02:02
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Pharohman777 posted:Bad economic policy such as using oil income that would be used to build new wells to compensate for old ones drying up to instead fund social programs. For being fans of welfare programs in America, liberals sure do hate it when countries like venezuela try to provide some measure of security and comfort for their own people.
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Feb 18, 2019 02:03
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Chomskyan posted:He pressed the big red button that said "do food shortages" https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...m=.133535d31f7e quote:The price controls have become a powerful disincentive in rural Venezuela. “There are no profits, so we produce at a loss,” said one dairy farmer in the state of Guarico, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he feared retaliation from authorities. To get a new tractor, he said, he would have to spend all the money he earns in a year. “It’s a miracle that the industry is still alive,” he said. quote:Escobar, the chicken and hog farmer, said the only way for farmers to remain in business today is to break the law and sell at market prices, hoping authorities look the other way. edit: CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:For being fans of welfare programs in America, liberals sure do hate it when countries like venezuela try to provide some measure of security and comfort for their own people. You do realize that oil wells are not infinite? That new ones must be built and maintained to keep oil production steady? Pharohman777 fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Feb 18, 2019 |
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Feb 18, 2019 02:07
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:What does "bad economic policy" mean? You must know that is the phrase every US government spokesman has used when talking about Venezuela. Despite hearing over and over again, I have never actually seen it defined in this context. I've referred to this article a few times, but it's a good example of how Chavez operated. While the goal of funding social programs with oil revenues was absolutely laudable and a Good Idea, Chavez treated the oil industry as a never-ending tap of funds and ultimately cannibalized the PDVSA.
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Feb 18, 2019 02:12
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I've referred to this article a few times, but it's a good example of how Chavez operated. While the goal of funding social programs with oil revenues was absolutely laudable and a Good Idea, Chavez treated the oil industry as a never-ending tap of funds and ultimately cannibalized the PDVSA. that article is so incredibly loaded with emotional language that it's hard to take seriously
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Feb 18, 2019 02:17
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Cease to Hope posted:that article is so incredibly loaded with emotional language that it's hard to take seriously https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2017/05/07/how-venezuela-ruined-its-oil-industry/#1e5f48857399
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Feb 18, 2019 02:21
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Pharohman777 posted:Ok, have this one written by an oil industry expert. Forbes sites are the equivalent of livejournals for "very serious commentators"
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Feb 18, 2019 02:40
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The expropriations were also a major problem. If you're going to nationalize a business, sure, whatever. But a huge number of expropriated businesses straight-up stopped functioning, putting their workers out of a job, their products off the shelves, and dissuaded foreign companies from investing in the country. This ultimately made the country more dependent on oil revenues, which has made crashes in oil prices since all the more damaging.
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Feb 18, 2019 02:40
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Like, I am in absolute agreement with Truga here: the Venezuelan government would have been better served straight-up transitioning to a command economy over what they did.
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Feb 18, 2019 02:44
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patonthebach posted:That sure is a number you pulled out of nowhere. So if people were losing 20 lbs a year because of general government corruption,incompetence,rapid inflation and economic collpase ; now with sanctions they will lose 400 lbs a year. Imagine if you had anything worthwhile to say. Ever. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 18, 2019 02:55
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Judakel posted:Imagine if you had anything worthwhile to say. Ever. "Actually, technically some of the time one is statistically likely to have something worthwhi..."
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Feb 18, 2019 02:56
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Judakel posted:Imagine if you had anything worthwhile to say. Ever. https://forums.somethingawful.com/banlist.php?userid=60050 Holy gently caress. Have you ever gone without being banned or probed in a week period? If anyone needs to shut the gently caress up its you.
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Feb 18, 2019 03:40
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The truly sad thing is that if we address global warming like we need to, Venezuela is going to be completely hosed economically anyway.
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Feb 18, 2019 03:45
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Forbes sites are the equivalent of livejournals for "very serious commentators" Well that makes it perfect for serious commentary on just how hosed up Venezuelas oilfields are and how it happened.
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Feb 18, 2019 03:53
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brugroffil posted:The truly sad thing is that if we address global warming like we need to, Venezuela is going to be completely hosed economically anyway. According to Venegoons, there's potential for the Venezuelan economy to reorient itself toward other fields, but it's crippled by its singular extractive focus from the Chavez/Maduro policy period. Any transition would probably need to lean heavily on oil proceeds in the near term.
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Feb 18, 2019 04:06
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