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GeneX posted:but still my point is that casualties have been very limited and no one vital has died Yeah, this. Sure, it's sad to lose Blast Hardcheese and Znorelag, but the cold hard fact is they were just a corporal and a squaddie.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:02
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Plus as tragic as it was to lose them, the game is very much built around the concept of finding out how enemies work by watching them run up and mutilate your dudes, possibly lethally. Something you discussed, but haven't directly witnessed)Like how you realized faceless were aliens posing as civilians. Imagine what would happen to a soldier commanded by a player whose first encounter with the faceless was running up next to the alien and kindly asking it to evacuate. But most importantly I am incredibly disappointed that you two worked yourselves up over what would happen when you skulljacked an officer that you had almost no reaction to the incredibly metal move of having your hacking dude run up and stab a blade into someone's brain so they could hack it.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:09
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i clic
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Feb 17, 2019 04:03
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You played this mission well. If it wasn't for that one misclick this would have felt like a really big victory instead of just surviving. No enemy in the game is really that scary by themselves. Without those faceless you would have mopped up that codex in two turns. It's a dick move for a new player to experience but I miss that because it only surprises you once. After 200 hours that first codex is part of your game plan and usually pops in to a firing squad when it shows up. I voted lightning hands because free actions are one of the most valuable things you can have available. Doubly so if it does damage.
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Feb 17, 2019 05:24
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Doobie Keebler posted:I voted lightning hands because free actions are one of the most valuable things you can have available. Doubly so if it does damage. 
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Feb 17, 2019 06:08
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Counterpoint: I voted Deadeye because a properly placed Sniper will almost never get to use Lightning Hands because she'll never be in pistol range of anything, where-as once you start stacking accuracy buffs on her she'll be able to use Deadeye pretty often to great effect. Especially in this game, with Magnetic Weapons nowhere in sight and if you've got Mutons on the board you're going to be seeing Berzerkers soon and you'll really want as much damage as possible when Big Mama comes stomping into play. Making a Gunslinger spec'ed character, particularly with Shadowkeeper available, is fine, but I almost never get Lightning Hands into use on a proper Sniper.
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Feb 17, 2019 07:37
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Lightning hands is better because free damage beats lowering your accuracy for possibly more damage!
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Feb 17, 2019 08:17
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Doobie Keebler posted:I voted lightning hands because free actions are one of the most valuable things you can have available. Doubly so if it does damage.
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Feb 17, 2019 08:41
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Agreed on lightning hands. The more active chances you have to effect the current situation the more fun this game becomes I find. It's the old Sid Meier's adage of seeing games as a set of intersting decisions and the more variety and frequency of options you have, the more each encounter becomes a puzzle of how to get out of it unscathed. This game by design has a lot of RNG bullshit (and as we've seen, 'Surpriiiiise!' bullshit) but it also gives you skills like these that allow you to actively bend the situation in you favour. Fwoderwick fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Feb 17, 2019 |
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Feb 17, 2019 10:08
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jng2058 posted:Counterpoint: I voted Deadeye because a properly placed Sniper will almost never get to use Lightning Hands because she'll never be in pistol range of anything, where-as once you start stacking accuracy buffs on her she'll be able to use Deadeye pretty often to great effect. Especially in this game, with Magnetic Weapons nowhere in sight and if you've got Mutons on the board you're going to be seeing Berzerkers soon and you'll really want as much damage as possible when Big Mama comes stomping into play. I agree here. I feel like the Sharpshooter class more than any, requires you to specialize in one side or the other. A properly played sniper will rarely be close enough to take those pistol shots, but will have accuracy to spare against most targets, especially the ones with the giant health pools.
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Feb 18, 2019 07:16
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Gothsheep posted:I agree here. I feel like the Sharpshooter class more than any, requires you to specialize in one side or the other. A properly played sniper will rarely be close enough to take those pistol shots, but will have accuracy to spare against most targets, especially the ones with the giant health pools. Yeah. To me Sharpshooter is basically two classes, depending on which side of the perk tree you go down. They're both good classes, though.
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Feb 18, 2019 07:27
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Lightning Hands all the way. You never know when you have to enter a building, get a sewer map or get snuck up on by enemies. A free shot is too good to pass.
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Feb 18, 2019 09:03
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Znorelag posted:Lightning Hands all the way. You never know when you have to enter a building, get a sewer map or get snuck up on by enemies. A free shot is too good to pass. rip u
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Feb 18, 2019 09:07
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lots of people posted:Sharpshooter is basically two classes, depending on which side of the perk tree you go down. Eh, as long as you aren't going to fall for the trap skill at tier one and take the pistol skill that requires getting shot at to work, a pistol sniper is still really solid at sniping. You can easily dip between the two and have a functional dude that shifts between close and long range as needed.
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Feb 18, 2019 13:18
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FoolyCharged posted:Eh, as long as you aren't going to fall for the trap skill at tier one and take the pistol skill that requires getting shot at to work, a pistol sniper is still really solid at sniping. You can easily dip between the two and have a functional dude that shifts between close and long range as needed. Also I would normally go Dead Eye, but the way Nat20 is playing Sharpshooters it feels like an hybrid build could work. Ma's Shadowkeeper has been used quite a bit already in this LP, having Lightning Hands could very well mean having an extra Combat Protocol-lite ability.
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Feb 18, 2019 13:36
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That Italian Guy posted:Also I would normally go Dead Eye, but the way Nat20 is playing Sharpshooters it feels like an hybrid build could work. Ma's Shadowkeeper has been used quite a bit already in this LP, having Lightning Hands could very well mean having an extra Combat Protocol-lite ability. I always keep my snipers fairly close to the action because they are also pools of hp that I can chose to use as ablative armor for other injured troops. Plus shadowkeeping and then scouting with your sniper is valid as gently caress and then it’s up there at the front. Deadeye makes your shots less accurate and I only use it for activating pods on rare occasions . Until you get kill zone and then you stop using deadeye too
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Feb 18, 2019 16:29
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I dont know if this was a mod or WOTC base, but I vastly prefer the point buy system for allowing me to avoid these pesky decisions - just get all the skills! Deadeye was a useful tool for extending my Reaper streaks.
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Feb 18, 2019 16:41
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sniper4625 posted:I dont know if this was a mod or WOTC base, but I vastly prefer the point buy system for allowing me to avoid these pesky decisions - just get all the skills! Deadeye was a useful tool for extending my Reaper streaks. That’s the expansion and so I guess not a spoiler, but yeah I really do miss it for a few specific skill choices like this that are really equally good but for different circumstances. Also I think not having reapers really changes the utility of Shadowfall and makes scout-sharpshooters more useful. Once reapers existed I kinda stopped bothering with scout builds for anyone else.
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Feb 18, 2019 17:03
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Akratic Method posted:That’s the expansion and so I guess not a spoiler, but yeah I really do miss it for a few specific skill choices like this that are really equally good but for different circumstances. Also I think not having reapers really changes the utility of Shadowfall and makes scout-sharpshooters more useful. Once reapers existed I kinda stopped bothering with scout builds for anyone else. I mean, sure the expansion added a super scout scout class, but with the added fatigue systems and possible injury it's still handy to have backups. Especially the ranger tree since it gives shotguns a good option to close or just to hit something from a little farther away than knife point
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Feb 18, 2019 17:58
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 A double bill today! We spent a very long time in the Geoscape this time, so I made that update 18.5 in case you want to skip it.  Episode 19 if for if you want to jump straight to the action.
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Feb 19, 2019 00:07
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Reached about 11 minutes into 18.5, and all I can think of is that adage about plans and enemy contact. E: ~18 minutes in, I would've kept one engineer on the AWC, and used the other to build the GTS. Brings them both down to 6 days, and then it's just another 5 to pop skullmining. EE: Watching them fret over the codex is the most  thing. I really hope they make it to some of the later bullshit. EEE: Very end of 18.5, let's just say that's a boooold choice. Lprsti99 fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 01:47
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18.5 "We made a mistake by not researching mag weapons yet." Spends 15 days researching autopsies, mag weapons take 19 days 19 Pretty much exactly how I expected it to go and played this mission my first go round. The sound waves exist to point you in the direction of the aliens to help ease a problem the dos games had with some lone jerk playing hide and seek in the fog forever.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:27
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FoolyCharged posted:
Worse than that were the jerky assholes who hovered 8 stories up sniping you from out of your vision range.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:32
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So yeah, crawling forward and overwatching over every step is a very effective tactic. So effective, in fact, that after everyone used it all the time for every mission in XCOM, XCOM2 added the timers on most missions so that every mission didn't take an hour and a half!
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Feb 19, 2019 06:16
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Excellent play. I’m actually not that opposed to your autopsies over mag weapons choice. I know you’re doing this blind and blindly it might have been a “bad choice” but plasma grenades and improved gremlin are two of the best upgrades you can get from autopsies apart from mimic grenade. (Which you hilariously diss.) On the actual mission. Yeah directional sound can be a bit far away too. You can sometimes hear which type of enemy it is too. For example you heard a lot of metallic clanking. Which is mechs You also somehow unselected acid and frost grenades from your grenadier! I wonder how you’ll react when you see that. I think it was when you made all utility items available? Which is good! Because while frost and acid grenades are loving excellent they do not destroy cover at all and won’t affect enemies behind cover. (Unless you get the right angle) Picking one special grenade and one regular on your grenadiers is p good. The acid can go on another soldier for example.
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Feb 19, 2019 10:32
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Hey Nat20, you can just hit ESC (twice if needed be) while zoomed into a section of the Avenger to get to the "Build Facilities" screen  (in fact, you can navigate through each section of the ship by hitting ESC to get to the zoomed out view and then click on the part you want to interact with).Also, I've just realized that with Znorelag's death, the entire Mission 1 crew is now dead  EDIT: also also, upgrading a Power Relay has a secondary benefit it allows you to staff a second engineer into it to squeeze out more power! That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 14:28
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I think you're s a bit hung up over the idea that the game's full of "trap choices" since more things are viable than not. I also put off building the Guerilla centre in favour of the AWC and ran with four troops for longer than most. By the way, if I recall correctly, special ammo works on pistols as well main weapons and yes, that includes Lightning Hands...
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Feb 19, 2019 16:06
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Mordja posted:I think you're s a bit hung up over the idea that the game's full of "trap choices" since more things are viable than not. I also put off building the Guerilla centre in favour of the AWC and ran with four troops for longer than most. It really depends on what you consider as "trap" choices. Are some choices "optimal" compared to others, when it comes to the increase in "power level" versus the new content and min/maxing? Yes. Does this mean you won't be able to win, or that it'll be very difficult to do so on a Normal difficulty (albeit blind) play through? No. It's the same thing as having a sub-optimal build in an RPG or a MMORPG: it will only affect your gameplay massively when you're playing on high difficulty; otherwise you'll just struggle a little bit more, maybe. Psionics VS weapons/armor probably has a clear answer on a mix/max scale, but a psionic unit is a very powerful tool that you wouldn't otherwise get. GTS as a first build is kinda the exception to the rule since (as Nat20 mentioned when talking about Frost Grenades) XCOM2 is a game about action economy, and an extra soldier is a flat +25% (or +20%) actions per turn (not to mention extra specialized items, extra targets for the enemy, extra eyes, etc). And even then you could definitely win a full Normal run with 4 people, if you really wanted to.
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Feb 19, 2019 16:20
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The main advantage of upgrading versus building more power plants is that it saves space (which actually is limited as you will unlock more facilities) and time you would have to spend excavating. And yeah, there is a difference between "suboptimal" and "trap". Thing about XCOM is that it gives you enough tools to drag yourself out of most pits you end up in, but a lot of it is not obvious on a first playthrough (and if it is any consolation, 2 is a huge improvement over the first XCOM in this regard). It is much harder to get screwed completely this time around. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 16:21
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Also let’s be real here. Psykers are really loving cool and I hardly ever get them until like the endgame so I love that you prioritised them. They are also in between good and stupidly good. A fully levelled psyker is probably the best unit you can have in the game. and you don’t even have to risk it on missions because it just gets stronger with time
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Feb 19, 2019 16:53
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Affi posted:Also let’s be real here. Psykers are really loving cool and I hardly ever get them until like the endgame so I love that you prioritised them. Yeah, this. +x average damage or +x Hit Points are not as entertaining as the stuff you can pull off with a psyker, and this is a LP after all. They're just applied to everyone instead of going all in on a single character...but let's be clear: we've already seen what's Nat20 philosophy on that regard
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Feb 19, 2019 16:58
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Yeah, there are optimal and somewhat less than optimal choices but nothing's really a trap choice. Take the upgrade on the power generator; it's +2 as you note, and most things takes multiples of 3, but staffing an engineer at the power generator is +5, and the upgrade allows for two engineers, so 5+5+2 = 12, a multiple of 3. There's also a few buildings that cost 1, 2, or 5 power.
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Feb 19, 2019 19:20
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Bremen posted:Yeah, there are optimal and somewhat less than optimal choices but nothing's really a trap choice. Take the upgrade on the power generator; it's +2 as you note, and most things takes multiples of 3, but staffing an engineer at the power generator is +5 Yeah, the belief in the trap choice of the power relay upgrade is just straight up not reading the entire description. That power +2 is the less important aspect of the upgrade by far: it is less than a third of the total increase you get once you build the upgrade and use the extra engineer slot. Actually, a lot of the traps Nat and Tea describe are basically down to things fitting together usefully, but in a way that either is not obvious to the blind player, or in a way that involves stuff they haven't hit yet. Or, in the case of psionics, the payoff is really good so the time and money (and hence trade-off if you want it early) is set at a level that seems daunting when you're entering the mid-game. Regarding skulljacking: it is technically a different action from skullmining. The latter is (extremely minor spoiler) something you can do in any mission, and doesn't come with surprises, just does what it says in the description. The former is a special story objective and it, as you saw, dumped something nasty on you. They'll have separate icons, and skulljack will not be available because you don't have that story objective anymore. Edit: they just gloss right over the best ammo in the game without even appearing to notice...  One more: Nat and Tea: you brushed off Vulture but I would invite you to consider the ratio increase given that generally you get one drop per mission with one or two items. Definitely not saying you need it, but it's not nothing! Akratic Method fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 21:25
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Akratic Method posted:Yeah, the belief in the trap choice of the power relay upgrade is just straight up not reading the entire description. That power +2 is the less important aspect of the upgrade by far: it is less than a third of the total increase you get once you build the upgrade and use the extra engineer slot. Actually, a lot of the traps Nat and Tea describe are basically down to things fitting together usefully, but in a way that either is not obvious to the blind player, or in a way that involves stuff they haven't hit yet. Or, in the case of psionics, the payoff is really good so the time and money (and hence trade-off if you want it early) is set at a level that seems daunting when you're entering the mid-game. I mean, I get where they're coming from, since some choices are better than others and they feel like they've been burned by the "wrong" ones. But a lot of it comes down to being situational - like taking the proving grounds before the larger squads, and then rushing to skulljack an officer. Yeah, it made the game harder for them, but as they noted it also reduced the avatar countdown - a pro player might have done the same thing if they desperately needed a way to lower the doom clock, so it's not a trap choice, just a situational one.
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Feb 20, 2019 00:07
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As someone who’s never played XCOM either and is following the LP along blindly, I’m curious what the more expert players think of Nat and Tea’s current overall situation. They seem convinced they’re going to run out of time, but is that just XCOM beating cynicism into them or is their current rate of progress genuinely a problem that will catch up to them?
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Feb 20, 2019 07:10
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Notty posted:As someone who’s never played XCOM either and is following the LP along blindly, I’m curious what the more expert players think of Nat and Tea’s current overall situation. They’re overall doing fine. avatar progress is good and low and they’re stressing out too much about it. They’re behind on tech because they keep doing autopsies. They should have mag weapons by now. They probably lost too many dudes for it to be completely healthy but it’s normal and not as punishing as other difficulties. I’d say if they keep winning on the ground it’s going to work out alright. But they are just a bad muton grenade away from a tpk that they won’t recover from.
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Feb 20, 2019 07:30
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Seconding that things are ok, if not amazing. Mostly I agree with Affi on all points but I do think the death rate is pretty severe. I also think they’ve developed some incorrect ideas of what’s good or not and aren’t doing or aren’t getting chances to do experiments with things they’ve currently judged “trap choices” and find which are much better than they sound (mimic beacons! It’s a freebie on an entire turn of alien attacks and they judged it worthless and moved on) which means they may struggle tactically against tougher enemies and exacerbate the lack of higher ranks. I’d say when they can field a team of 6 captain-rank troops, I’ll give them a 100% chance of eventually winning. But right now I’d say 80%
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Feb 20, 2019 07:58
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Notty posted:As someone who’s never played XCOM either and is following the LP along blindly, I’m curious what the more expert players think of Nat and Tea’s current overall situation. My opinion: Avatar progress isn't a problem. Basically, it's there to keep you moving through the plot, which in turn makes the game harder; you'd normally work on better weapons and stuff until you had to progress, and things like skulljacking and taking out the blacksite will reduce the progress while also sometimes unlocking things like tougher enemies. For instance, if they hadn't skulljacked yet, they wouldn't have run into the Codex this mission. The problem is they're behind on everything else. They should have higher level soldiers by now, but theirs keep dying and they've been spreading out the XP a lot. They're behind on economics because they missed a mission (which would have given them a scientist) and have generally been making sub-optimal strategic choices. None of that's unrecoverable, but they're going to be in a position where the game is getting much harder and it'll be a race whether their improving tactical skills can keep pace, because their soldiers will be getting much weaker relative to the enemies they're fighting. Also sooner or later they're going to run into the first alien ruler, and with their current power level that could easily wipe out their squad. Even veteran players often consider the rulers bullshit, and Long War 2, a mod disliked by many goons for being too grognardy-difficult, actually nerfed them. If they survive until they start getting psionics and better equipment going they'll be looking much better, and if they keep soldiers alive longer the higher level skills can be massive gamechangers. So they're not doomed, but they're basically one more horrible unlucky moment away from it, IMHO. Bremen fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 21:06
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Rushing psionics could save them, as psykers don't need battle xp to level
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Feb 20, 2019 21:17
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You have completely overlooked an item you've had since the beginning that is incredibly powerful: The humble flashbang.
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