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Munin posted:"I'll ignore all the bad things happening now, surely things will get better if I wish for it hard enough." things aren't gonna get better by getting trump involved. again, not sure how this is so tough to comprehend
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Feb 19, 2019 03:48
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caracas guido posted:But if; as you state, this happens there's really nothing any of us can do about it. caracas guido posted:Maybe if leftists had pushed against Maduro's authoritarian actions sooner
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Feb 19, 2019 03:54
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Condiv posted:nice try Hmm, "nice try"? You don't seem to have grasped my point. Grasping it would involve seeing your own hypocrisy though. The US did the most milquetoast thing in this case. Officially condemned the coup and, Clinton being Clinton, she then tried to paper things over as smoothly as possible behind the scenes. What you were calling for in the case of Honduras was robust sanctions against the government, even after another election was held. You were calling for a strong US intervention. Condiv posted:things aren't gonna get better by getting trump involved. again, not sure how this is so tough to comprehend See me calling for Trump getting involved and stomping his big fat marine boots all over the situation. He has amply demonstrated his incompetence and ineffectuality in the foreign policy space. The only thing you can hope when he gets anything in his sight is that he won't make anything worse. I want him and his orange arse well out of this. Look at what has happened to the thread since he opened his gob, perfect example of why his involvement wrecks the dialogue. The Venezuelan opposition does not equal Trump and supporting the Venezuelan opposition does not mean supporting Trump. It seems to be the minor point so many posters seem to stumble over.
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Feb 19, 2019 03:59
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Bob le Moche posted:This is false and even if it was true, people like me have been trying to warn people like you for years now. There was ample time but you didn't listen and decided instead to be complicit in the buildup to the current situation the entire way through. It's not false Bob. Violence begets violence. There is nothing anyone in this thread can do about anything if Trump decides to invade Venezuela. Even Vilerat who was an active asset of the US government at a CIA post had no effect on the outcomes of the Libyan war. And he had a lot more training than you ever have. Bob le Moche posted:This is false and even if it was true, people like me have been trying to warn people like you for years now. There was ample time but you didn't listen and decided instead to be complicit in the buildup to the current situation the entire way through. Except Maduro and chavismo did jack poo poo to liberate or help Venezuela. They're all just fascist leeches that created a military narco petrostate dressed up in some fancy form of psuedo-"socialism" which was really just another form of latin american clientilism which we all knew lead to bad places given the history of latin american clientielism. You're the one judging people for not supporting Maduro and claiming we are somehow responsible for some kind of invasion when the exact opposite is true.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:01
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Munin posted:Hmm, "nice try"? You don't seem to have grasped my point. Grasping it would involve seeing your own hypocrisy though. The US did the most milquetoast thing in this case. Officially condemned the coup and, Clinton being Clinton, she then tried to paper things over as smoothly as possible behind the scenes. What you were calling for in the case of Honduras was robust sanctions against the government, even after another election was held. You were calling for a strong US intervention. uh, papering poo poo over for a coup government is intervening in favor of a coup munin. stop trying to spin things as if the US did the right thing in the case of honduras and didn't support a military coup. also, saying that military aid should be cut to a coup government persuant to US law is not hypocritical, and I don't know why you would think it is. quote:See me calling for Trump getting involved and stomping his big fat marine boots all over the situation. He has amply demonstrated his incompetence and ineffectuality in the foreign policy space. The only thing you can hope when he gets anything in his sight is that he won't make anything worse. trump supports the opposition so that says enough on its own. he was the first to recognize the opposition as the actual venezuelan government. you can't disconnect trump from the opposition, they're his puppet
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Feb 19, 2019 04:06
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guaido literally called pence to get involved.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:07
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Munin posted:Hmm, "nice try"? You don't seem to have grasped my point. Grasping it would involve seeing your own hypocrisy though. The US did the most milquetoast thing in this case. Officially condemned the coup and, Clinton being Clinton, she then tried to paper things over as smoothly as possible behind the scenes. What you were calling for in the case of Honduras was robust sanctions against the government, even after another election was held. You were calling for a strong US intervention. That's really softpedaling it man: quote:The homicide rate in Honduras, already the highest in the world, increased by 50 percent from 2008 to 2011; political repression, the murder of opposition political candidates, peasant organizers and LGBT activists increased and continue to this day. Femicides skyrocketed. The violence and insecurity were exacerbated by a generalized institutional collapse. Drug-related violence has worsened amid allegations of rampant corruption in Honduras’ police and government. While the gangs are responsible for much of the violence, Honduran security forces have engaged in a wave of killings and other human rights crimes with impunity. There's a saying people like around here about US politics, there is always more and it is always worse. The new boss that the US brings in makes the old boss look like an angel.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:10
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As an aside, the situation in Honduras is a loving disgrace and should be getting far more air time than it is. The current refugee flows in Central America and Mexico are in a large part driven by the political repression currently happening in Honduras. There is a loving good reason why some many people want to get the hell out and get to the US and that it being totally glossed over in the current media discourse. I do think that the current situation in Honduras is very much chicken coming home to roost and that a stronger, though I firmly add non-physical, intervention should have occurred in Honduras. There is a limit to what any outside actor can do but I do think more could have been done.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:11
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Truga posted:guaido literally called pence to get involved. I wonder why the new leader of the opposition in Venezuela would call the vice president of the largest and most influential country in the world. Really is a tough thing to grasp. Oh By the way you are all talking about things in Honduras. Horrible, totally. But you haven't said a single thing about the repression going on in Nicaragua under a "socialist" government against pensioners and state employees.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:14
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Condiv posted:uh, papering poo poo over for a coup government is intervening in favor of a coup munin. stop trying to spin things as if the US did the right thing in the case of honduras and didn't support a military coup. also, saying that military aid should be cut to a coup government persuant to US law is not hypocritical, and I don't know why you would think it is. You're equivocating again. In the case of Honduras you again had a Supreme court giving their blessing to a power grab. It was notionally the civilian government which ousted Zelaya. Of course they had the military on their side, an essential arm of government if you want to create facts on the ground, I would argue that it was a much of a military coup as the current blessing of Maduro's action by the Venezuelan supreme court. Maduro also has the backing of the military and police which is what keeps his regime in power. Maduro himself wouldn't last long without López. As an aside, do you know who I mean when I refer to López?
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Feb 19, 2019 04:17
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caracas guido posted:But you haven't said a single thing about the repression going on in Nicaragua under a "socialist" government against pensioners and state employees. well, there isn't much to say, is there https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nicaragua-business/nicaraguan-government-meets-with-business-leaders-in-bid-to-end-crisis-idUSKCN1Q60OS quote:Organizations such as the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, Amnesty International and a group of expert investigators from the Organization of American States (OAS) have accused the government of violence against protesters.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:24
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Munin posted:You're equivocating again. the supreme court warrant for zelaya's arrest came after the military ouster of zelaya munin. further, it did not authorize zelaya to be deposed by the military: https://www.asil.org/insights/volume/13/issue/9/honduras-coup-d%92etat-constitutional-clothing-revision Condiv fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 04:26
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Going by this thread, you will have plenty of people saying they're doing nothing wrong actually Truga.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:28
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Condiv posted:the supreme court warrant for zelaya's arrest came after the military ouster of zelaya munin So what? Not to mention that what you contest is disputed, the Supreme Court was fully willing to give a constitutional fig leaf to the action. We're not talking about anything that could be justified in hindsight. Even the commission established afterwards agreed on that. The same way that Maduro's actions are also clearly bogus. Munin fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 04:31
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Truga posted:well, there isn't much to say, is there https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nicaragua-business/nicaraguan-government-meets-with-business-leaders-in-bid-to-end-crisis-idUSKCN1Q60OS There is a general Latin American politics thread, though it doesn't get much traffic.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:31
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Truga posted:well, there isn't much to say, is there https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nicaragua-business/nicaraguan-government-meets-with-business-leaders-in-bid-to-end-crisis-idUSKCN1Q60OS It's cute to see any authoritarian on earth can make that simple claim and you'll support them. gently caress I bet Trump could do it and you'd support him. Meanwhile over in reality Nicaraguans have been protesting because Ortega tried to cut Social Security payments . Clearly he's a really swell guy. At the height of this Ortega had declared all political protests illegal and his police snipers were specifically targeting and shooting college students. Real outstanding guy. caracas guido fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 04:34
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caracas guido posted:It's cute to see any authoritarian on earth can make that simple claim and you'll support them. Please stop before TI sues, they own the DLP patent
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Feb 19, 2019 04:39
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Munin posted:So what? Not to mention that what you contest is disputed, the Supreme Court was fully willing to give a constitutional fig leaf to the action. so the military took over the honduran government. literally a coup. dunno why you keep trying to defend it also, weird that you keep trying to claim i'm equivocating. on what exactly?
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Feb 19, 2019 04:40
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Condiv posted:so the military took over the honduran government. literally a coup. dunno why you keep trying to defend it You know Chavez attempted a military coup in Venezuela in the 1990s right?
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Feb 19, 2019 04:42
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caracas guido posted:You know Chavez attempted a military coup in Venezuela in the 1990s right? lets go ahead and assume that's the case. where have I been equivocating?
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Feb 19, 2019 04:43
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Condiv posted:so the military took over the honduran government. literally a coup. dunno why you keep trying to defend it Where do you think I'm trying to defend it? Because I draw comparisons to the situation in Venezuela which you think are totally legitimate?
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Feb 19, 2019 04:44
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Condiv posted:lets go ahead and assume that's the case. where's the have I been equivocating? It's just a fun fact. gently caress, tankies love coups when it's their guys in charge. That Peruvian left-wing president tried something similiar against Fujimori and then got elected and everyone though he was going to be a peruvian Chavez but he was mostly boring and now he's in prison because he ended up taking millions in dollars in bribes from Odebrecht. Speaking of Odebrecht money. I forget exactly how much they paid Maduro again... caracas guido fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 04:45
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Munin posted:Where do you think I'm trying to defend it? Because I draw comparisons to the situation in Venezuela which you think are totally legitimate? i've never said I think the maduro government is totally legitimate munin. i have literally said, over and over again, that people should not be backing a trump coup. full stop. what aren't you getting about that? caracas guido posted:It's just a fun fact. gently caress tankies love coups when it's their guys in charge. i've never said I support maduro caracas. i'm p sure i've posted that at least 3 or 4 times. in fact, i'm p sure i've said as much to you. but apparently, being against trump's coup means I'm pro maduro when it comes to morons like you
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Feb 19, 2019 04:46
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My understand is, in Honduras situation, Americans chose to continue to support government authority from beforehand and did not send any invasion. People are now saying that Venezuela is to have Americans invade and to not support existing government authority. Why then are people saying that any current Plan in Venezuela is to look like Honduras?
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Feb 19, 2019 04:47
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It's not a coup, and it's not "Trump's". The world does not revolve around the United States.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:48
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Condiv posted:i've never said I think the maduro government is totally legitimate munin. i have literally said, over and over again, that people should not be backing a trump coup. full stop. what aren't you getting about that? None of us support a Trump coup or military action by the US Government. We do support the Venezuelan opposition which is a social democrat party and a full member of the Socialist International. Big difference.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:49
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:Why then are people saying that any current Plan in Venezuela is to look like Honduras? no-one's said this. at all. i said that the honduran coup, backed by the obama administration turned that country into a hellhole. and that was a coup supported by a guy who had at least 10x the moral fiber of trump. i cannot imagine how loving terribly a trump coup will go, entirely because of how hosed trump is
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Feb 19, 2019 04:50
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caracas guido posted:None of us support a Trump coup or military action by the US Government. We do support the Venezuelan opposition which is a social democrat party and a full member of the Socialist International. the venezuelan opposition whose biggest supporters are the trump administration, and who were recognized as the ruling party of venezuela by the trump administration before anyone else. i'm not seeing the huge difference you're claiming Discendo Vox posted:It's not a coup, and it's not "Trump's". The world does not revolve around the United States. you keep insisting this, but it has the US's fingerprints on it and the trump administration remains guaido's biggest support
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Feb 19, 2019 04:53
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Discendo Vox posted:It's not a coup, and it's not "Trump's". The world does not revolve around the United States. This is true, its an attempted coup. Truly the pedantry needed.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:55
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Compared to the successful coup Maduro pulled. Literally in the second post if you actually bothered to read the thread and didn't just jump in to say Trump bad, Maduro good.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:55
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Munin posted:As an aside, the situation in Honduras is a loving disgrace and should be getting far more air time than it is. The current refugee flows in Central America and Mexico are in a large part driven by the political repression currently happening in Honduras. There is a loving good reason why some many people want to get the hell out and get to the US and that it being totally glossed over in the current media discourse. I do think that the current situation in Honduras is very much chicken coming home to roost and that a stronger, though I firmly add non-physical, intervention should have occurred in Honduras. Could you expand on the relationship between the 2009 Honduran crisis and the refugee flows? I was under the impression out migration was driven more by gang violence there than strictly political or state repression. For more on the situtuation in Nicaragua, you can read this post of mine in C-Spam Or if you go to the Latin America thread I have several posts there about both recent violence as it relates to Ortega and the broader history of the Contra war and peace agreement.
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Feb 19, 2019 04:56
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ChaseSP posted:Compared to the successful coup Maduro pulled. so, assuming this is something that actually happened, why is cheering a US coup appropriate?
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Feb 19, 2019 04:57
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Condiv posted:so, assuming this is something that actually happened, why is cheering a US coup appropriate? Second page, maybe you should actually read the op. And if you are going to say this was actually legitimate, then so is Guaido being declared president by the National Assembly via power given by the Venezuelan Constitution to deem the President unfit. ChaseSP fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 04:58
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Discendo Vox posted:It's not a coup, and it's not "Trump's". The world does not revolve around the United States. Mike Pence, literally, called the dude right before he said 'actually I'm president now' and our intel community is so loving stupid and horny for this they're openly going around all 'yea we've been working for regime change for a while but we needed a perfect idiot simp like this guy to use on the inside!'
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Feb 19, 2019 04:59
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ChaseSP posted:Second page, maybe you should actually read the op. And if you are going to say this was actually legitimate, then so is Guaido being declared president by the National Assembly via power given by the Venezuelan Constitution to deem the President unfit. way to dodge the question. i'll repeat it for you: "assuming this is something that actually happened, why is cheering a US coup appropriate?" i'll also add a bit of clarification. when I say "assuming this is something that actually happened" I am saying that I am not contesting what you said about maduro having carried out the coup. so here's the question: why should we support a US coup even if maduro did a coup?
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Feb 19, 2019 05:02
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Condiv posted:i've never said I think the maduro government is totally legitimate munin. i have literally said, over and over again, that people should not be backing a trump coup. full stop. what aren't you getting about that? Yeah, but what is a Trump coup in Venezuela is what you were just calling for in Honduras. Strong sanctions against the regime. I think that the actions in Honduras were at their root just as illegal and illegitimate as Maduro's action in Venezuela. I don't think that the coup in Honduras was any more or less and shaped by the armed forces than the current power grab in Venezuela. In terms of Venezuela I do think international sanctions on and condemnation of key regime figures is called for. I think general sanctions are counterproductive and that any kind of armed intervention disastrous. As an aside, I do think that Zelaya's actions trying to do an end run around the constitution of Honduras and abolishing term limits was a loving stupid thing to do, lack of strongly maintained term limits having a very bad history in Latin America, but that did not justify the coup. The path the opposition followed is well trodden since Porfirio Diaz campaigned on the slogan "No Reelection".
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Feb 19, 2019 05:03
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Munin posted:Yeah, but what is a Trump coup in Venezuela is what you were just calling for in Honduras. Strong sanctions against the regime. no it's not. stop trying to pretend removal of military aid and training is sanctions. further, the trump coup in venezuela is not composed of sanctions, but a replacement venezuelan government being pushed by the trump administration. so, it looks like your claims of me equivocating was projection on your part. sexpig by night posted:Mike Pence, literally, called the dude right before he said 'actually I'm president now' and our intel community is so loving stupid and horny for this they're openly going around all 'yea we've been working for regime change for a while but we needed a perfect idiot simp like this guy to use on the inside!' i forgot about this Condiv fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 05:06
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Condiv posted:no it's not. stop trying to pretend removal of military aid and training is sanctions. Ok, so you did not want automatic sanctions applied or only some of them there. Good to clarify. I would have supported stronger action than you would have in that case as well then. Not US boots on the ground or the like but certainly more than the milquetoast response there was. I do think that the soft-peddling did embolden the right wing establishment in their own constitutional revolution. Condiv posted:further, the trump coup in venezuela is not composed of sanctions, but a replacement venezuelan government being pushed by the trump administration Plenty of people are pushing for Maduro to relinquish power. The fact that it has now got onto Trump's radar doesn't suddenly make it a US coup. If Trump were to say he liked a book you like would you suddenly hate it? Well, the question is kinda moot since he doesn't read books but you get the gist..
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Feb 19, 2019 05:15
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Munin posted:Ok, so you did not want automatic sanctions applied or only some of them there. Good to clarify. I would have supported stronger action than you would have in that case as well then. Not US boots on the ground or the like but certainly more than the milquetoast response there was. I do think that the soft-peddling did embolden the right wing establishment in their own constitutional revolution. i already told you that the US didn't just soft-peddle, but backed the coup by helping legitimize it. pushing elections that were under control of the military coup government and were widely denounced, pushing recognition of the coup government to normalize the honduran situation, etc. quote:Plenty of people are pushing for Maduro to relinquish power. The fact that it has now got onto Trump's radar doesn't suddenly make it a US coup. If Trump were to say he liked a book you like would you suddenly hate it? Well, the question is kinda moot since he doesn't read books but you get the gist.. to answer your question first, if trump said the sky was blue I would double check to make sure it wasn't red now. as for the opposition not being a US coup, thats incredibly unlikely considering how guaido appeared, declared himself the legitimate president, and the trump admin immediately recognized him as the legitimate president. i mean, come on
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Feb 19, 2019 05:21
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Are you solipsistic? Guaidó didn't "appear", he was ]elected in 2015. The world exists outside of your newsfeed, and the Venezuelan National Assembly, like the Venezuelan Constitution, exists outside of the United States. There are people in the world with agendas, motivations, goals, agency, and morals that aren't Trump!
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Feb 19, 2019 05:38
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