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And here i've finished prac guide and couldn't get into TGAB because of the extremely awkward dialogue. It definitely gets better over time. I don't remember even early prac guide being as bad as early TGAB though, but I may just be misremembering.
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Feb 15, 2019 03:59
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I won’t lie that TGaB isn’t much better for me. They’re both not exactly paragons of great dialogue, I’ll give prac a few more chapters and see how I feel about it.
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Feb 15, 2019 04:04
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I found TGaB worse than PracGuide.
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Feb 15, 2019 04:14
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I stuck with TGaB for a while because I liked the promise of a dungeonpunk western, but the instant it added cute animal girls whose culture and identity was based on 90s anime I tapped out hard.
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Feb 15, 2019 04:21
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Omi no Kami posted:I stuck with TGaB for a while because I liked the promise of a dungeonpunk western, but the instant it added cute animal girls whose culture and identity was based on 90s anime I tapped out hard. I almost quit when the lightsaber showed up so I completely understand.
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Feb 15, 2019 04:47
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Mr. Humalong posted:I almost quit when the lightsaber showed up so I completely understand. Yeah, like, the bones for a good story are there, but eventually it hit a point where I didn't feel like the time I spent reading it and remembering what the million zillion characters were up to was gonna be rewarded.
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Feb 15, 2019 05:51
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I liked TGaB up until the point where it felt like each new chapter was just twenty different POV characters wrestling for the limelight with three paragraphs each - and the resulting glacial pacing. After a point it became impossible for the new chapters to maintain any sort of momentum due to the constant POV swaps and recaps (from when some rando you haven't read about in a few chapters bumbles back into the POV slot) that ate up valuable wordcount. I remember setting it aside and thinking to myself "since it takes so drat long for anything to be fleshed out I might as well just put this down and come back when I have a big backlog to read through" ...and then just never feeling motivated enough to try to reengage with the story after setting it down.
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Feb 15, 2019 06:33
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It's funny because TGAB is by far my favorite serial. I had a huge amount of trouble getting into Practical and the inn one, the prose just didn't flow to me, but I feel right at home with TGAB.
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Feb 15, 2019 06:57
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Lumping PracGuide with Inn for prose issues feels weird to me because I find PracGuide to have excellent prose (at the very least by web serials standards) while Inn is pretty bad (probably just average by web serials standards).
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Feb 15, 2019 11:19
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Yeah I get what you're saying and I agree, the spelling and occasional grammar errors in Practical Guide disrupt the flow of the prose so much for me they're about even, in my mind. If someone did an editing pass of Practical Guide I would be all over that poo poo, Inn not so much.
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Feb 15, 2019 17:56
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When it comes to editing, PracGuide actually has a semi-unique problem among the serials I've read. A lot of them have giant chunks that need to be taken behind the barn and completely rewritten (*cough*Worm*cough*), but even in the earliest chapters where the author was visibly finding their footing and tone, there's nothing that I would call bad. That having been said, the first... maybe two books, basically everything until the arc where Cat turns Akua into a fashion accessory feels like a different story. It's necessary to start somewhere, since Cat wouldn't be a believable character if we hadn't seen her grow into the terrifying story that she's currently inhabiting, but I think it could've been done less jarringly. If we're theorycrafting, though, I dunno how you'd really change it; I would cut the military academy stuff entirely, since its only real utility is introducing her to her future staff, but I don't know what I'd replace it with. The obvious low-hanging fruit would be to have her run around with Black for several years, but he works better as a supporting character and the dynamics of the knight/squire relationship probably mean that he wouldn't want her story to tie into his too closely.
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Feb 16, 2019 04:17
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Personally I found the first two books to be substantially better than the rest overall, as far as my personal enjoyment went.
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Feb 16, 2019 04:52
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I like stuff like the military camp because it's part of an escalating in terms of the seriousness of her conflicts. Everything that happens is basically a process where you see Cat gradually mature and change her worldview/philosophy; she starts out with a philosophy very similar to a less careful Black, and it gradually changes as she experiences various things.
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Feb 16, 2019 06:03
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I enjoyed the first book a whole lot, but the second one never clicked for me- structurally it does it what it needs to (give Cat some friends/underlings, start transitioning her from scary loner to scary leader), but in my head it went on for a really long time and coming off of the life or death stakes of book 1 it felt weird to have big, dramatic setpieces built up around wargames, even though Akua's bet gave the last one teeth. So yeah, I dunno- I don't have any real editorial criticisms of it, and there wasn't even anything that make me dislike it, it just felt like a weird speedbump that didn't gel with the rest of the story.
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Feb 16, 2019 09:44
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All web serials are at their best when the tension is high and poo poo is going down. It's what the medium is good at.
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Feb 17, 2019 06:45
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I think that largely depends on the story, though- like, maybe this is just personal taste, but my favorite sections of MoL are almost all slow, character-driven sections where Zorian is brain-raiding other people to figure out that he's a massive jerk, or slowly working on researching a problem or overcoming some kind of abstract challenge. The high-stakes, high-tension magical slugfests help to break that up and serve a narrative purpose, but they feel like necessary bookmarks more than high points in the story.
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Feb 17, 2019 07:44
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Sampatrick posted:All web serials are at their best when the tension is high and poo poo is going down. It's what the medium is good at. I very strongly disagree. That's true in some cases but in a lot of stories it just isn't at all. Some of my least favorite parts of TWI are the high tension fighting stuff, because I enjoy that story much more as well-developed characters doing zany wacky fun poo poo. The Laken vs. Rags arc made me stop reading the story entirely. I also vastly prefer lower level conflicts and stakes to large scale escalations of poo poo. The first couple arcs of Prac Guide and the first ~half of Worm are much more enjoyable to me than the rest of those stories.
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Feb 17, 2019 15:44
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That's probably why I liked the most recent nonpatreon TWI so much as it's both of those things: It consists entirely of adventurers and many many goblins just having a good time together in the inn, as a siege on Liscor by the Goblin Lord looms large on the literal horizon. I can't say that the high tension is gone (there's definitely a lot of fighting still) but FWIW the Laken vs Rags stuff is probably done with to some extent (he's realized goblins are thinking beings) and has been for several weeks now. The fighting that's going on now looks more to be of the "put aside differences to fight a clearly bad common enemy" flavor than the "main character vs main character" kind, which was very frustrating to read. edit: to temper expectations, Rags is still having a bad time, for other reasons Argue fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Feb 17, 2019 |
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Feb 17, 2019 16:38
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You use TWI as an example, but the Wandering Inn is terrible so I'm not sure why you would use it as an example. I'm also not sure why you bring up escalation because it has nothing to do with what I said. Tension doesn't even have to be a fighting thing, that's just the most common way that web serial writers create tension. Web serials work better with high tension because serialized stories have to care much more about exciting the reader for what's going to happen next. I'm not saying you should always have super high tension or whatever, just that high tension makes a serial better.
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Feb 17, 2019 17:46
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Omi no Kami posted:I think that largely depends on the story, though- like, maybe this is just personal taste, but my favorite sections of MoL are almost all slow, character-driven sections where Zorian is brain-raiding other people to figure out that he's a massive jerk, or slowly working on researching a problem or overcoming some kind of abstract challenge. The high-stakes, high-tension magical slugfests help to break that up and serve a narrative purpose, but they feel like necessary bookmarks more than high points in the story. Every part of MoL is balanced against Zorian's race for knowledge/power in order to defeat Red Robe/Lich/get out/spoilers. This is the primary source of tension in the story. Combat is not the only form of tension in a story.
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Feb 17, 2019 17:50
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Sampatrick posted:Every part of MoL is balanced against Zorian's race for knowledge/power in order to defeat Red Robe/Lich/get out/spoilers. This is the primary source of tension in the story. Combat is not the only form of tension in a story. I'm not really sure you could call that tension 90% of the time. There were no elements of a ticking clock for almost half the story (I think it was somewhere around the mid 50s that they even discovered that red robe left and got the rules of the loop decay explained), and Zorian's approach for the first 75% of the story is less of a race, and more of a systematic effort. There are moments of tension for sure, but if you try to define your entire story through high tension and big moments you often do so at the expense of structure and good pacing. There's a reason that even action movies only tend to have 30-40 minutes of action slates spread out over 2 hours- audiences need breathing room, and tension or stakes need to be used responsibly as one tool out of many.
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Feb 17, 2019 23:11
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Yeah, I would say outside of the last act, MoL is pretty much defined by being really low tension. Can't go any lower tension than "you are safe to make as many mistakes as you want". And that's even to mention that I've read plenty of serials where there's more or less zero tension whether the protagonist will fail or not and they're still entertaining. Tension and failure are not be-all-end-all of storytelling. It's what PGtE heavily relies on and does so with great deal of skill, but it's not an only option. Megazver fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Feb 17, 2019 |
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Feb 17, 2019 23:23
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New MoL. RR is a little underwhelming, but I'm okay with it. One of the few times I wish conservation of characters had been used more. Also, even though Zach simulacrum and/or past Zorian made little sense, I wish one of them had been true because they were such cool ideas. Also, a little surprised that he met with Xvim offscreen- given what a touchstone their crappy mentorship sessions were throughout the story, I was expecting some kind of "Hi jerkface, I'm your pupil and guess what, everything sucks" moment. I guess we got that when he first impressed Xvim in the loop, though, so that's fine. Also-also kinda surprised at how quickly the contract issue was resolved; Zorian should've maybe-kinda-sorta considered pushing to get his own mana frame, since he was taking on the exact same risks, but I could see not wanting to push the dick angels for more loot when they're already miffed. Also x3, boy that was a stupid plan on the angels' part. Angels are kind of dicks. Omi no Kami fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Feb 18, 2019 |
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Feb 18, 2019 07:35
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Yeah at some point I realized RR's identity wasn't going to be a huge revelation, so this about went as expected. Actually, I was half-expecting RR to be a complete rando that they'd never met before and this was pretty close to that as I don't remember him at all. Anyway, am I right that there's a new mystery here in how RR got looped into the system? So the loop was all the angels' idea, and the invasion was initially going to be the pathetic, easily-repelled one, up until somehow Jornak got caught up in it and decided to become Red Robe?
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Feb 18, 2019 08:33
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Argue posted:Yeah at some point I realized RR's identity wasn't going to be a huge revelation, so this about went as expected. Actually, I was half-expecting RR to be a complete rando that they'd never met before and this was pretty close to that as I don't remember him at all. Yeah, like, to the author's credit even heading into this chapter I was convinced that either we were never going to learn RR's identity, or it was going to be a huge disaster and come off as such a gigantic asspull as to feel stupid and frustrating as heck. The actual reveal felt kinda underwhelming, largely on account of how minor the dude was and how late he was introduced, but I think that even "Eh, it was okay" is a lot better than we could've gotten. I honestly wonder what it would've been like reading the story if he hadn't been a cult member, though- MoL has a huge cast of side/day-in-the-limelight characters, and if it hadn't been for the fact that we knew RR had to be a reasonably senior member of the cult, the pool of potential suspects would've been considerably broader. Who knows, we could've enjoyed dozens of chapters convinced that Kirielle had been RR all along! Anywhoo, I think it's mostly in the open now- Zach, bored and lonely, told anyone and everyone he could find that there was a time loop. One of those somebodies was Veyers, who knew lawyer bro, who befriended Zach on the basis of a) lawyer, which he needed for post loop, and b) fellow screwed out of his inheritance guy. From there, I believe the inference is that RR had QI hack the marker, and either RR or QI turned Zach's brain into scrambled eggs while they were at it, presumably RR since Zach had the murder compulsion towards him. The only big problem I have with that explanation is that QI is a borderline narcissistic opportunist who barely tolerates most of the cult members, so I can't see how RR got him to hack the marker without getting in on the loop himself.
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Feb 18, 2019 09:35
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MoL: Uh, if QI knows about the time-loop, won't he just get hit by the divine whammy post-primordial release? (That's probably why he didn't get himself put into the loop). I can't imagine him being on board if he knew about that. He's also the only mage with enough knowledge to fix Zach's contract problem, so they've got to flip him somehow. And just lmao that part of the contract includes "Stop QI's invasion single-handed. Also you are not allowed to kill QI."
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Feb 18, 2019 11:41
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Huh, come to think of it, QI is a greedy jerkface, right? And earlier he was basically like "Meh, it's not like I really want this invasion to work, I just want to destabilize everything so nobody invades my country"? What if Z&Z just put their heads together with some friendly neighborhood diplomats/royals and just straight-up bribed him to call off the invasion with a mutual nonaggression pact and a whole bunch of money? He'd probably be fine waiting a few decades, and RR/Silverlake are kinda crappy without their godlike skeleton dad backing them up on rhythm guitar.
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Feb 18, 2019 12:05
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mol That was... somewhat disappointing honestly. It feels half a step above the villain being evil just because he loves kicking puppies and eating babies. I mean, this guy is talking about basically ruining the entire world in the name of some nebulous vengeance and sense of disgust with the various world governments. What's his angle exactly? Is he trying to set himself up to be the God-King of Humanity so he can rewrite laws to be more "fair" or something? Because from what we know of the relative power-levels in the setting that's an unrealistic goal at best. QI can single-handedly overpower him so I'm sure the other various world powers will have ways to deal with him too... and that just sort of reduces him to a terrorist holding a handful of cities hostage with his bombs. Which, while not a good thing, still probably ends up with him dead in a ditch somewhere after being taken care of by some country or another's special forces. And that's not even mentioning the angels... Also, he's still bound to try to release the primordial which - if it succeeds - will apparently lead to some sort of more immediate horrible apocalypse scenario. It feels like all the win conditions for team Red Robe are actually lose conditions for team Red Robe. I just don't see what he stands to gain no matter how you spin it. He's like an embodiment of Chaotic Stupid.
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Feb 19, 2019 01:28
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sunken fleet posted:I just don't see what he stands to gain no matter how you spin it. He's like an embodiment of Chaotic Stupid. I think you just hit the nail on the head when it comes to explaining why I was convinced he was Fortov for so long- he basically comes off like a petulant teenager in a lot of ways. Really, their entire endgame is completely screwed up- if they fail to release the primordial, RR and Silverlike die from their brand/geas/whatever. If they succeed, they either get butchered by angels or eviscerated by the failsafe. Even QI's plans aren't being particularly well-served here; if I remember correctly his main motivation for invading is keeping his horrible zombie island from getting conquered, which he sees as an inevitability unless he stops the giant aggro expansionist nation that hates them. Also, didn't QI imply earlier in the story that he'd seen primordials escape before? Because his entire plan seems to be based on a giant mountain of misinformation about how they work and what happens if one gets out. As much as I didn't like the reveal, though, I do appreciate that RR and Silverlake are both kinda pathetic losers who only pose a serious threat because of lichdad's involvement. It wouldn't have been narratively satisfying for years of time loop shenanigans to culminate in an immediate curbstomp battle in Z&Z's favor, but it would've been really funny.
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Feb 19, 2019 02:09
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sunken fleet posted:mol The Geas forces him to release the primordial or die, everything he said is just him trying to justify his actions as something other than selfishness. RR spent so much time in the loop that he's become detached from reality, exactly as Zorian feared would happen if he got used to doing horrible things just because they would reset at the end of the month. RR will do anything to free the primordial because he can't properly comprehend the long term consequences of his actions. QI on other other hand, is thinking about the next 1000 years. He has to realize that while attacking one nation will lead to a feeding frenzy when the neighboring countries smell blood, attacking all the countries simultaneously will lead to the entire continent eventually uniting against Zombie Island. I'm predicting that QI joins Team Z, or Zorian joins QI in exchange for canceling the invasion and breaking Zach's contract. Either way, getting Z and/or Z on his side would be a far better long term investment than RR who is obviously unstable, or Silverlake who is probably already past her prime. With all the simulacrum hijinks, Zorian's probably halfway to becoming a Lich already.
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Feb 19, 2019 03:14
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Sampatrick posted:You use TWI as an example, but the Wandering Inn is terrible so I'm not sure why you would use it as an example. Personal tastes aside, TWI works mostly fine as a piece of genre fiction. It has sometimes problem with side chapters as they interrupt the ride or change the flavour too much. But on the overall it is written competently enough to be readable and with (for most part) solid enough character and with little outright off putting.
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Feb 19, 2019 14:40
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Gladi posted:Personal tastes aside, TWI works mostly fine as a piece of genre fiction. It has sometimes problem with side chapters as they interrupt the ride or change the flavour too much. But on the overall it is written competently enough to be readable and with (for most part) solid enough character and with little outright off putting. TWI has a ton of issues. The writing is like objectively awful, pacing is essentially nonexistent, and it's a piece of genre fiction that has no plot. It's really quite bad.
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Feb 19, 2019 15:02
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Sampatrick posted:TWI has a ton of issues. The writing is like objectively awful, pacing is essentially nonexistent, and it's a piece of genre fiction that has no plot. It's really quite bad. 
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Feb 19, 2019 15:03
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It's okay if you like it in spite of it's flaws but it's pretty hilarious to try to claim it has no issues lmao
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Feb 19, 2019 15:06
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Sampatrick posted:TWI has a ton of issues. The writing is like objectively awful, pacing is essentially nonexistent, and it's a piece of genre fiction that has no plot. It's really quite bad. Also Worth the Candle does the same sort of mysteries plot like 100x better.
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Feb 19, 2019 15:17
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Sampatrick posted:It's okay if you like it in spite of it's flaws but it's pretty hilarious to try to claim it has no issues lmao
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Feb 19, 2019 15:25
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Sampatrick posted:It's okay if you like it in spite of it's flaws but it's pretty hilarious to try to claim it has no issues lmao We get it, you really, really don't like TWI. Plenty of us do. There's no point repeatedly trashing something you don't like here.
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Feb 19, 2019 15:50
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TWI Patron: ERIN YES I'll admit that the prose isn't top of the line, and pirateaba cannot write an action scene to save her life. But the character growth and the themes about non-violence and ending a cycle of suffering between goblins and others, hell in the world in general, honestly makes this story incredibly worth it to me. Who knew all you needed to do the make me like a mary sue was to make her wholly committed to nonviolence? A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 17:52
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Nonpatreon: AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHA big flaming stink posted:TWI Patron: ERIN YES I think that nails it for me. Well, I actually like some of the action scenes, but more importantly, what TWI lacks in prose, it makes up for by having well-defined characters (love em or hate em) and giving them all distinct voices, which to me makes it infinitely more readable than a better-paced serial whose characters barely have personalities.
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Feb 19, 2019 18:11
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If your prose is bad then literally nothing else matters imo. Like, if your prose is fine, then you can make up for that by having good characters or what have you, but a story is composed of words. If your prose is like actually bad, there's no coming back from that. Obviously this is all my opinion and people prioritize things differently, but I think there are some aspects of fiction where you have to be at least fine or you can't really make up for it.
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Feb 19, 2019 18:37
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