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patonthebach posted:Its interesting that most of the twitter journalists that are being posted in this thread are currently on a sponsored trip in Venezuela. Your last poster included. Unless he's fabricating a quote from McCabe's book, what the hell does that have to do with what McCabe said the President of the United States said in private meetings regarding Venezuela?
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Feb 19, 2019 18:50
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The book itself points it as being part of Trump's rambling which doesn't really make me worry. Like trump will constantly say poo poo and not act on it, only to pull stuff out of nowhere from his ailing brain.
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Feb 19, 2019 18:51
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The limitation is that the President has to have abandoned the position, which Maduro very clearly has not done. If he had there'd be no need to force him out. It's a bit more complicated than that. The argument is that Maduro has abandoned his position insofar as he is not doing the work of the president (i.e, guaranteeing rights and freedoms for Venezuelans), so it's like he's just left the presidency vacant. Article 233 sets out a list of conditions that, if met, make the president no longer the president. These conditions include the president's death, "permanent physical or mental incapacity" as declared by a board of doctors assigned by the Supreme Court, and "the abandonment of his position, so declared by the National Assembly". In short: the National Assembly has the ability to remove the president from power. The phrase "abandonment of his position" ("abandono de cargo" in Spanish) appears only one time in the Constitution. This means that we don't get a definition of what it means. All we get is the National Assembly's power to declare that the president has abandoned his position, and that he is no longer the president. One way to read this is that "abandono" means to physically leave the position; that is, Maduro would have to get on a plane and say, "Bye! I'm never coming back!" for this condition to be met. Another way to read "abandono"--the way in which the National Assembly has chosen to read it--is that the president can abandon his post by, for example, abandoning his responsibilities (as set out in Article 232 to, for example, "guarantee the rights and freedoms of Venezuelans") and becoming an authoritarian ruler. In this reading, the president has in fact "abandoned" his position just as much as if he had done so physically, because he is not carrying out the responsibilities placed upon him by the Constitution. This second reading fits within the general spirit of the Constitution, and in particular Articles 333 and 350, which set out duties and responsibilities for Venezuelans to restore constitutional order if it is ever attacked. Article 333 says that if the Constitution cannot ignored (i.e., if we get an authoritarian president who chooses to ignore it), and that in such an event "every Venezuela, whether they have been vested authority or not, will have the duty to collaborate with the re-establishment" of constitutional order. In short: if a dictator shows up and starts trampling all over the Constitution, it is your duty to take active measures to stop that from happening. Article 350 says that "The Venezuelan people... will disown any regime, law or authority that violates the value, principles and democratic guarantees or that damages human rights". In other words, if a dictator shows up and starts trampling all over the Constitution, you must not support that dictator. I think that the opposition is using the Constitution as intended. What happens if a dictator shows up? Everyone has to stop supporting him, actively work to restore constitutional order in the country, and the National Assembly has the legal ability to remove him from power. EDIT: It's also worth pointing out that arguably the #1 reason why Maduro hasn't left power is because one part of the Constitution isn't working as intended. Article 328 says that the National Armed Forces "have no political partisanship", meaning that they are supposed to be politically neutral. This is because the National Armed Forces' loyalty cannot lie with a political party or person, but rather the entire nation; or, according to the same article, the army must operate "at the exclusive service of the Nation and never at [the service of] a person or political orientation". If the National Armed Forces were really "at the exclusive service of the Nation" they would be working to restore constitutional order as per Articles 333 and 350. Instead, they are very clearly at the service of Maduro and the PSUV, thus perpetuating authoritarianism. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 18:52
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What’s the on the books punishment for treason? Are they old fashioned Soviet style? Just looking ahead for Guaido and the National Assembly.
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Feb 19, 2019 19:09
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Capital punishment is outlawed in Venezuela. Of course I'm sure that wouldn't stop the PSUV from legalizing it.
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Feb 19, 2019 19:12
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Don't quote me, but I believe that Venezuela was the first country to ban capital punishment, back in 1863. "Traicion" (treason) isn't entrenched in the Constitution. You'll find it in the Codigo Penal (Penal Code). You'll find it in Article 128-129, in a section that deals with crimes against the state. The penalty is, depending on a couple of factors, 20-30 years. The fact is that Guaido and the National Assembly could be arrested for treason and other crimes against the state, given how the law is worded. I think I qualify for a couple of crimes against the state as well (but not reason), and I think so do the other venegoons 
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Feb 19, 2019 19:18
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Chuck Boone posted:It's a bit more complicated than that. The argument is that Maduro has abandoned his position insofar as he is not doing the work of the president (i.e, guaranteeing rights and freedoms for Venezuelans), so it's like he's just left the presidency vacant. We don't like what he's doing so i'm sure you agree that's the same as not being there. Jesus Christ.
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Feb 19, 2019 19:23
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ChaseSP posted:Capital punishment is outlawed in Venezuela. Of course I'm sure that wouldn't stop the PSUV from legalizing it. Who needs capital punishment when SEBIN has tenth story windows?
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Feb 19, 2019 19:29
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:We don't like what he's doing so i'm sure you agree that's the same as not being there. He might as well be absent with the good he's doing for Venezuela.
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Feb 19, 2019 19:32
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:We don't like what he's doing so i'm sure you agree that's the same as not being there. It's not that "we don't like what he's doing". It's that "he's literally violating each one of the responsibilities granted to him by the Constitution, one by one, in order to maintain himself in power and enrich himself and his circle". The argument isn't that Maduro should be removed from power because we disagree with this or that policy. The argument is that he should be removed from power because he's entrenched an authoritarian government through brute force. This is precisely the scenario that Chavez and the people who drafted the Constitution had in mind when they wrote in these checks on presidential power. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 19:40
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The limitation is that the President has to have abandoned the position, which Maduro very clearly has not done. If he had there'd be no need to force him out. That is up to the National Assembly to decide, apparently.
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Feb 19, 2019 19:45
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ChaseSP posted:Capital punishment is outlawed in Venezuela. Of course I'm sure that wouldn't stop the PSUV from legalizing it. now it's just fanfic huh
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Feb 19, 2019 19:46
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'sure there isn't a death penalty but what IF they did institute it just for the opposition huh? That'd be pretty hosed up...'
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Feb 19, 2019 19:47
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Chuck Boone posted:It's not that "we don't like what he's doing". It's that "he's literally violating each one of the responsibilities granted to him by the Constitution, one by one, in order to maintain himself in power and enrich himself and his circle". How convenient that the faction attempting to usurp the Presidency also gets to decide whether the President is "literally violating every one of his responsibilites," which is the same thing as saying We Don't Like What He's Doing. That sure sounds like valid constitutional jurisprudence and not a total farce. I think it's far more likely that provision was drafted to select a new President in the event of a sitting President fleeing a massive uprising, which sounds to me like something a young revolutionary government would be thinking about when drafting a constitution.
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Feb 19, 2019 20:07
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sexpig by night posted:'sure there isn't a death penalty but what IF they did institute it just for the opposition huh? That'd be pretty hosed up...' I'm saying if they wanted to, they could easily. Way to act like I'm writing or thinking tehy will though when the PSUV seems content with just jailing opposition members. Also I doubt they think breaking with 100 years of capital punishment being banned is a good look. Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:
Why wouldn't a fresh government also be very concerned about a strong man coming into power using previous leaders as legitmancy? This is as much of a valid concern and fits quite well into it as written as well. ChaseSP fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 20:10
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:How convenient that the faction attempting to usurp the Presidency also gets to decide whether the President is "literally violating every one of his responsibilites," which is the same thing as saying We Don't Like What He's Doing. That sure sounds like valid constitutional jurisprudence and not a total farce. they are responding to maduro stripping the legislature of power the first time his party lost an election, to be fair
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Feb 19, 2019 20:14
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They don't need to legalize capital punishment to do it.
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Feb 19, 2019 20:17
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:How convenient that the faction attempting to usurp the Presidency also gets to decide whether the President is "literally violating every one of his responsibilites," which is the same thing as saying We Don't Like What He's Doing. That sure sounds like valid constitutional jurisprudence and not a total farce. That's... exactly how a constitutional check on presidential power works?  The legislative branch deciding when the president has stepped out of line is by no means a new or groundbreaking idea. Impeachment in the United States operates on a similar principle.I disagree with your interpretation of why this power was given to the National Assembly. Repeating that this is about "we don't like what he's doing" is also a gross misrepresentation of what's actually happening here, which I suspect is part of the reason why you're having a problem with this. These are mechanisms that are written into constitutions for exactly this purpose. I don't think that this is a controversial idea at all.
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Feb 19, 2019 20:19
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It is interesting how the meaning of Venezuela's laws keeps getting shifted around to whatever is most convenient for the pro-Maduro crowd at any given moment.
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Feb 19, 2019 20:46
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Shifting around? Re-interpreting the word "Abandonment" to mean "Doing a Bad Job?" That's not a shift? You people are nuts.
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Feb 19, 2019 20:48
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He's coopted the government which has actively arrested opposition forces who wouldn't actually be in power without the common persons report. That they stripped the National Assembly of any power due to losing it is a pretty damning thing alone.
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Feb 19, 2019 20:51
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Chuck, thank you for that constitutionpost.
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Feb 19, 2019 21:05
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If you want more details, just read the op's second post on how the national assembly has been illegally stripped of power and an illegal constitutional convention was called for.
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Feb 19, 2019 21:13
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brugroffil posted:Unless he's fabricating a quote from McCabe's book, what the hell does that have to do with what McCabe said the President of the United States said in private meetings regarding Venezuela? I'm not even talking about the book. Or Trump. Its just interesting that all the twitter posts in this thread lately are from literal government funded plants.
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Feb 19, 2019 22:04
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patonthebach posted:I'm not even talking about the book. Or Trump. Its just interesting that all the twitter posts in this thread lately are from literal government funded plants. Rich accusation when people were linking directly to voice of america in this thread as evidence for their claims.
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Feb 19, 2019 22:19
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ChaseSP posted:He might as well be absent with the good he's doing for Venezuela. Even if it wasn't legal by definition, why should the citizenry continue to accept a leader that literally is starving the country and stealing from them?
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Feb 19, 2019 22:21
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Where is this citation to VoA? The last reference I can find to it was you accusing people of linking to it last August.
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Feb 19, 2019 22:23
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Rich accusation when people were linking directly to voice of america in this thread as evidence for their claims. Caps lock, you thought a good, reliable source was one trying to downplay just how bad the famine in Venezuela is.
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Feb 19, 2019 22:31
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Discendo Vox posted:Where is this citation to VoA? The last reference I can find to it was you accusing people of linking to it last August. Ironically, the same guy who retweeted the alabama newspaperman who wants the Klan to ride again
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Feb 19, 2019 22:35
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Pharohman777 posted:Caps lock, you thought a good, reliable source was one trying to downplay just how bad the famine in Venezuela is. From an unattributed correspondent working for Islamic Republic of Iranian Broadcasting. CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Ironically, the same guy who retweeted the alabama newspaperman who wants the Klan to ride again Yeah, that's from last August. And they didn't retweet the author of the editorial, they retweeted coverage of the fact that the editorial was published. https://twitter.com/W7VOA/status/1097655146299953155 Because it was news. This is...like, you get the idea that the journalist isn't covering something because they agree with it? Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 22:35
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Pharohman777 posted:Caps lock, you thought a good, reliable source was one trying to downplay just how bad the famine in Venezuela is. caps lock has this odd juxtaposition of "there is no famine in Venezuela because Chavismo has eradicated food insecurity forever, and if there is a famine it's because Polar is hoarding food to force Venezuelans to overthrow socialism" that said I will not have you badmouth the credibility of Iranian state media edit this means you, Discendo!
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Feb 19, 2019 22:37
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They should hire better people then if you don't want us to disparage them.  Okay realistically this is an Iran commentator looking for an easy way to stick it to the US via supporting Maduro and I doubt this is a top down decision.
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Feb 19, 2019 22:46
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ChaseSP posted:They should hire better people then if you don't want us to disparage them. He's also issuing segments for Press TV from Venezuela at the same time. He's there with a camera crew. My guess is the tweet was part of a segment that went unused. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 22:50
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Chuck Boone posted:It's not that "we don't like what he's doing". It's that "he's literally violating each one of the responsibilities granted to him by the Constitution, one by one, in order to maintain himself in power and enrich himself and his circle". Actually, the Venezuelan Supreme Court has ruled this reading of the constitution is incorrect, so this entire theory is objective wrong. Has Guaido announced elections yet, as this silly argument requires?
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Feb 19, 2019 23:48
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uninterrupted posted:Actually, the Venezuelan Supreme Court has ruled this reading of the constitution is incorrect, so this entire theory is objective wrong. The supreme court that the PSUV has illegally stocked with their people.
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Feb 19, 2019 23:51
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DoctorStrangelove posted:The supreme court that the PSUV has illegally stocked with their people. Lol now appointing judges who don’t like the overthrow of the government is illegal. It’s incredible how the people yelling for folks to listen to “real Venezuelans” believe the Venezuelans in Venezuela should have no say in their government.
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Feb 19, 2019 23:57
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How can you explain that logic when the National Assmebly, elected by Venezuelans, was effective neutralized the moment the PSUV lost it? Or are you going to somehow try to twist this into it validates it retroactively.
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Feb 20, 2019 00:05
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DoctorStrangelove posted:The supreme court that the PSUV has illegally stocked with their people. we must follow the constitution, unless the constitution disagrees with me then those are fake judges
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Feb 20, 2019 00:07
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Man I remember when the argument was simply Colombian Paramilitaries being to blame. Good times.
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Feb 20, 2019 00:14
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The big news this afternoon is that the army has ordered shutting of the border with the Dutch Antilles. The indefinite closure involves all sea and air connections between the islands and Venezuela. This is almost certainly related to the fact that Curacao is one of the four places that has been named as a staging point for humanitarian aid, with the other three being Puerto Rico, Cucuta, and Roraima. GreyjoyBastard posted:Chuck, thank you for that constitutionpost. No worries. It's a complicated situation. It's unfortunate that some people would rather try to score  internet points than spend a couple of minutes trying to grasp the different facets at play here.
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Feb 20, 2019 00:15
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