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Vermain posted:Like I mentioned in another post, it's highly likely that everything Lujanne told Callum was bullshit. It was either her being misinformed due to elf culture treating humans as inferiors, or she was doing the same thing she did with Rayla, where she gave him advice (that he'll never be able to learn the arcanums as a human) that she knew he'd reject and make him even more dedicated to pursuing his goal. In addition, Dark magic is literally fueled by the deaths of living creatures and it caused untold death and misery ever since humans started using it and hosed over everyone on the continent so the elves have been massively prejudiced against human magic users ever since. They not only think humans can't do magic, they think that humans shouldn't do magic. Cockmaster posted:Though I don't know if I entirely agree with how they've handled the morality of dark magic. With the rock monster, it's one thing to argue if it's really okay to kill one intelligent lifeform to save many many people. But when thousands of people are are in imminent danger of starving to death, that's generally not the right time to be preaching about hard work and not taking shortcuts and so forth. And yes, if they're going to have Viren go from "willing to do morally questionable things to help others" to "garden variety Evil Overlord", they really ought to offer some logical explanation. At this point, the only one I could think of would be if long-term exposure to dark magic turns people into assholes. There's also the fact that no one except the Queen even stopped to consider whether the lava titan was an intelligent creature, everyone just assumed it was an evil monster. But yeah, the fact that Dark magic is relatively easy to use once you've done the initial study it feeds into the whole "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" thing. Also once you start rationalizing killing living creatures in order to be able to do spells and you live with that for a while it makes it even easier to rationalize even more extreme means to an end.
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Feb 17, 2019 16:33
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I just wish we had more. 9 episodes is so unbelievably short for what they want to say!
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Feb 17, 2019 17:19
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This was soooooooooo good. I'm already craving more. The first season was good, but the second season has escalated the setting and the characters so much in just 9 episodes. Absolutely love it, and I feel like right now it's on par with TLA, especially if it continues on this strong.
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Feb 17, 2019 19:12
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:In addition, Dark magic is literally fueled by the deaths of living creatures and it caused untold death and misery ever since humans started using it and hosed over everyone on the continent so the elves have been massively prejudiced against human magic users ever since. They not only think humans can't do magic, they think that humans shouldn't do magic. I was actually wondering if Callum's newfound magical ability might play a part in mending human/elf relations. It's fairly plausible that if they see a human doing magic without killing anything, some of them might possibly start to rethink their attitude towards humanity.
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Feb 18, 2019 00:01
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Cockmaster posted:I was actually wondering if Callum's newfound magical ability might play a part in mending human/elf relations. It's fairly plausible that if they see a human doing magic without killing anything, some of them might possibly start to rethink their attitude towards humanity. Yeah I get the feeling that the show started off with two goofy and slightly naive kids just trying to do a good deed to set things right for everyone else and then get back to their everyday lives (really similar to the tone in Over The Garden Wall) but they're going to turn out to be incredibly influential and politically powerful in their own right very soon, even if that's not what they ever wanted. Ezran is going to show the humans that they were wrong and Callum is going to show the elves that they were wrong. I also get the feeling that Callum and Rayla's relationship is also going to become a crucial catalyst for repairing the relationship between the human and elf nations Or I could be completely wrong, lol. I guess we'll find out next season.
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Feb 18, 2019 07:30
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:
Or else in ten seasons because it doesn't move enough in only nine episodes. I really hope they get more time to breathe.
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Feb 18, 2019 13:43
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S2 looked a lot better than 1, but most of the same problems seem to still be there. The inconsistent characters and tone are, whatever I guess? I know I'm older than the target audience and it's no worse than I've seen elsewhere. The pacing though, the best way I can put it is it feels like they're still making 22 episode seasons with plenty of room to breathe, and 9 episodes isn't.
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Feb 18, 2019 16:21
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IRQ posted:S2 looked a lot better than 1, but most of the same problems seem to still be there. The inconsistent characters and tone are, whatever I guess? I know I'm older than the target audience and it's no worse than I've seen elsewhere. The pacing though, the best way I can put it is it feels like they're still making 22 episode seasons with plenty of room to breathe, and 9 episodes isn't. I definitely don't feel like the characters are inconsistent. I especially enjoy that Soren works really well as the sort of character that people would say "well he was always nice to me" about which is a good archetype to use for once. Pacing for sure. When you've only got 9 episodes spending 2 on thoughtful contemplating just doesn't feel right to me.
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Feb 19, 2019 01:51
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I assume they were given a 52 episode allotment, and decided to divide it into nine episode seasons instead of thirteen episode seasons. (And in doing so somehow managed to beg an additional 2 episodes out of production.)
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Feb 19, 2019 02:19
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Open Source Idiom posted:I assume they were given a 52 episode allotment, and decided to divide it into nine episode seasons instead of thirteen episode seasons. They shilled a lot on twitter for a season 2 so I don't think they've got an allotment like that? I wish they did, I'd love to know for sure this show will actually finish.
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Feb 19, 2019 02:21
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I’ve only seen the first episode of the new season but the visual flow is much improved! Viren is still toeing the line between being a bad guy and possibly being someone with legit concerns for humanity.
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Feb 19, 2019 02:49
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On that note, I loved the hilariously on-the-nose scene where he's shouting at a mirror about how it was supposed to be something great but never managed to achieve anything, or something like that.
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Feb 19, 2019 03:42
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Viren's fox news sizzle reel scroll with 3D graphics [that worked on almost everyone] was my favorite thing in this season.
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Feb 19, 2019 07:18
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I really liked that the governmental council of Katolis actually...y'know, worked, for the most part. In a lot of other shows -- a lot of which I really enjoy -- the so-called councils of elders or whatever were mostly just there to argue ineffectively amongst each other while the mustache-twirling villain played them like puppets. In this one though, it's like, no Viren, you don't actually outrank or hold any sway over the other council members. And when you try to do whatever you want without their approval, wow guess what, they're gonna oust the hell outta you and then arrest you for committing treason. Like, when Viren returned from the summit and the councilwoman was railing into him, I thought it was just gonna be her blowing smoke over so much nothing and that Viren was just gonna go back to doing whatever he's usually doing...but nope! She actually carried through on her threats! It was great!
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Feb 19, 2019 08:16
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My favorite visual touch that I picked up this season is that the crowns of the king and queen of Katolis (circlets with two uneven rectangles at the front) are an abstract representation of the official seal of the kingdom (two towers of different heights).
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Feb 19, 2019 12:50
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Ccs posted:I’ve only seen the first episode of the new season but the visual flow is much improved! Viren is still toeing the line between being a bad guy and possibly being someone with legit concerns for humanity. I kind of like how even the villains have good intentions but feel obligated to do bad things for various reasons and suffer for it, including the big bad. It's more interesting than if everyone only wanted to go murder all the elves or whatever.
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Feb 19, 2019 16:04
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Claudia and Soren are weird. In most shows they would be these sort of jerkish adversaries, who are sort of redeemable. But no. They are genuinely mostly good people, who still consider the princes their friends and only want to do what's necessary to protect each other and to make their dad proud. They are on the opposite side, but they have a genuine sense of love and humor. Just compare that to Azula from Avatar to see what I mean. Soren is mostly a doof who lets himself get manipulated by his dad, but Claudia in particular seems a bit weird. On the one hand she's a sweet girl who wants to protect her brother and her friends on the other hand, she keeps extinguishing live to feed her dark magic. Her character isn't that of a typical dark mage. I do like the fact that he's called Soren. I met two Sorens in my live. They were both sorta like him. cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 20:45
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I mean, Claudia's practise of dark magic is mostly no worse than someone who eats meat in our world. She's not on the level of Viren, who traps souls in coins and suchlike. Actually, this is something the show looks like it might be wending its way towards addressing: unless the message of the Dragon Prince is downright vegan, i.e. exploiting animal life for any reason is a moral wrong, there has to be something more than just, "you have to kill animals," that makes the use of dark magic upsetting and evil. Sure, the sapient magical creatures are understandably twitchy about humans eyeing them up as ritual components, but Callum even just killing a caterpillar to save Rayla is treated as a very upsetting, traumatic moment for him. Like, Claudia sacrificed a deer to heal quadriplegia. That's a great trade-off! We have to kill deer in the real world constantly just to keep them from eating all the other animals out of an ecosystem. If we could heal full body paralysis on a one patient per deer ratio, that would be a medical miracle and a win-win. My guess is that dark magic corrodes the psyche and the soul - perhaps by taking a little bit of the caster's own life force in the transaction of each spell - which is why Claudia's a little quirky from her low-level practise and Viren is full on dangerously unstable from long exposure to more advanced rituals. And, of course, after sacrificing the deer, the most intense and bloody ritual Claudia's probably ever performed in her life, she has a white streak in her hair and appears a bit more unhinged than before.
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Feb 19, 2019 21:39
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Claudia and Soren are like your weird relatives who are great people: nice and easy to get along with until you dip a little below the surface and realize they hold to some seriously unstable tenets. Like they're hardcore anti-vaxxers or deeply invested into multi-level marketing or something. But they're still genuinely fun to be around if you don't think too hard about it. And maybe redeemable. "Thanks for coming over for breakfast! I had to scrounge up my own ingredients to get that special taste. Did you know that people get really hung up on rodent droppings in their food, even though they're totally nutritious and delicious? The FDA cracks down on it because they don't want you to open your third eye. Anyway I hope you like the pancakes!" Spoilered for rambling off-topic politics and also some light discussion of the magic system: The metaphor that comes more naturally to me for dark magic is an economic one--the only route to power for humans is by exploiting the labor of others, and this is such an unquestioned fact of life that someone as kind as Claudia accepts it wholeheartedly. Maybe in the breakfast analogy Claudia has a pancake-making sweatshop in her basement...or she eats at a restaurant where undocumented workers are paid subsistence wages under the table....or she lives in a society whose whole agricultural system is built on those principles... And oops, now the show is saying "hey kids, capitalism is evil sorcery!" Which, I mean, fine. But I don't think Netflix intends to take it in that direction. edit: or that^^^^^
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Feb 19, 2019 21:45
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The reason that Dark Magic is dangerously corrupting isn't because it uses life or damages the soul, but because it doesn't require an arcanum to learn. When Sarai peppers Harrow with questions about the magma titan, she's essentially asking him, "Do you know the value of the power you're wielding?" and neither him nor Viren have the answer to that. Callum learning Sky Magic requires him to understand the wind's power and purpose, and the perspectives and beliefs of others around him. By comparison, all that Viren needs to make his magic work is the right words and the right blood oozing between his hands. If you have no comprehension or respect for what you're sacrificing to achieve your goals, then throwing it on the fire becomes trivial. Viren has consumed so much life without considering the cost that murdering four heads of state - including a child - has the same gravitas to him as squishing a butterfly. Claudia doesn't understand or care about the value of her own life to the point that she dangerously overexerts herself healing Soren. Even Callum is guilty of this: he nearly dies gripping a lightning rod and then almost kills himself using Dark Magic he's not trained to use because he's desperate to feel like he's meaningful.
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Feb 20, 2019 00:03
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wizzardstaff posted:Claudia and Soren are like your weird relatives who are great people: nice and easy to get along with until you dip a little below the surface and realize they hold to some seriously unstable tenets. Like they're hardcore anti-vaxxers or deeply invested into multi-level marketing or something. But they're still genuinely fun to be around if you don't think too hard about it. And maybe redeemable. Like I said before they're the ultimate example of "Well, they were always nice to me".
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Feb 20, 2019 00:08
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Vermain posted:The reason that Dark Magic is dangerously corrupting isn't because it uses life or damages the soul, but because it doesn't require an arcanum to learn. When Sarai peppers Harrow with questions about the magma titan, she's essentially asking him, "Do you know the value of the power you're wielding?" and neither him nor Viren have the answer to that. Callum learning Sky Magic requires him to understand the wind's power and purpose, and the perspectives and beliefs of others around him. By comparison, all that Viren needs to make his magic work is the right words and the right blood oozing between his hands.
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Feb 20, 2019 00:14
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Vermain posted:If you have no comprehension or respect for what you're sacrificing to achieve your goals, then throwing it on the fire becomes trivial. Viren has consumed so much life without considering the cost that murdering four heads of state - including a child - has the same gravitas to him as squishing a butterfly. Claudia doesn't understand or care about the value of her own life to the point that she dangerously overexerts herself healing Soren. Even Callum is guilty of this: he nearly dies gripping a lightning rod and then almost kills himself using Dark Magic he's not trained to use because he's desperate to feel like he's meaningful. This is not the main point you are trying to make but rather a plot question about something you brought up: does Viren actually intend to kill the other heads of state? I thought he was just summoning spectral assassins to terrorize and intimidate them, but not kill? They can't join his coalition if they're dead. Well, I guess their successors could. We'll see next season.
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Feb 20, 2019 01:03
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wizzardstaff posted:This is not the main point you are trying to make but rather a plot question about something you brought up: does Viren actually intend to kill the other heads of state? I thought he was just summoning spectral assassins to terrorize and intimidate them, but not kill? They can't join his coalition if they're dead. Well, I guess their successors could. We'll see next season. Nah, you're right, I misremembered his exact words. I think they're just gonna kill random people until the leaders cave and decide to go along with his plan.
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Feb 20, 2019 02:12
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Vermain posted:Nah, you're right, I misremembered his exact words. I think they're just gonna kill random people until the leaders cave and decide to go along with his plan. This is exactly it yea, they're to sow discord.
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Feb 20, 2019 02:40
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mystes posted:This simultaneously explains a bunch of different things in the show, so I think you are probably right. It's certainly better than implying that it's somehow morally okay to kill animals for meat, but not to, for instance, cure a spinal cord injury.
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Feb 20, 2019 02:50
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I liked this show, and then Harrow had a dream in which he received Rawls' Theory of Justice, and decided to live by it. Then I LOVED it.
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Feb 20, 2019 13:52
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Test Pattern posted:I liked this show, and then Harrow had a dream in which he received Rawls' Theory of Justice, and decided to live by it. Then I LOVED it. mystes fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 13:58
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I think with Claudia it's going to be a 'slippery slope' type deal. She's gone from magical creatures like gryphon eyes, to non-magical creatures like deer - who's to say what she'll use if Soren injures himself even worse, or the spell starts wearing off?. Like sure, theoretically someone could use dark magic in a responsible, moderate and perhaps even ethical manner for the betterment of everyone, with complete understanding and respect for the lives they take. But Claudia is very demonstrably not one of those people, and neither is Viren.
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Feb 20, 2019 14:36
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Claudia had to cure Soren. He can't count syllables!
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Feb 20, 2019 15:31
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Pyrotoad posted:I think with Claudia it's going to be a 'slippery slope' type deal. She's gone from magical creatures like gryphon eyes, to non-magical creatures like deer - who's to say what she'll use if Soren injures himself even worse, or the spell starts wearing off?. I think every creature is magical in this, other than humans.
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Feb 20, 2019 15:52
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Pyrotoad posted:I think with Claudia it's going to be a 'slippery slope' type deal. She's gone from magical creatures like gryphon eyes, to non-magical creatures like deer - who's to say what she'll use if Soren injures himself even worse, or the spell starts wearing off?. Claudia, at least, seemed somewhat hesitant and somewhat guilty. I suspect if deer work, then humans might too, and if Viren figures that out we're off to the loving races.
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Feb 20, 2019 20:44
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One interesting idea about Soren and Claudia: There's no real reason to assume that the deer magic was permanent. Maybe she has to keep dissolving animals for that, while slowly tearing apart her humanity. I guess she'd think that it's permanent but those where wounds inflicted by a dragon, so maybe there's some special magic bullshit involved. That would be a really cool development.
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Feb 20, 2019 21:05
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cant cook creole bream posted:One interesting idea about Soren and Claudia: There's no real reason to assume that the deer magic was permanent. Maybe she has to keep dissolving animals for that, while slowly tearing apart her humanity. I guess she'd think that it's permanent but those where wounds inflicted by a dragon, so maybe there's some special magic bullshit involved. Technically the rock inflicted the damage, I doubt it's anything magical.
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Feb 20, 2019 21:36
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The ideal situation would be that Soren got his injuries completely healed by the deer's lifeforce and it's as if he never got injured in the first place and it's nothing we have to worry about anymore. That would be...very convenient, of course. So it's also possible that Soren needs a fresh baby deer every week or so in order to maintain his mobility. And, well...that's grim, but it's still not all that different from people slaughtering livestock every day because we need to eat in order to function. What would start turning things really dark is if the lifeforce becomes less and less effective over time at keeping Soren upright, and so he needs to consume more lives more and more frequently. And then eventually baby deer isn't enough. Maybe you need baby cows next. Baby dragons? Babies, period? It's at this point that things would really become, yup, this is bona fide legit dark magic and not just magic that has a price. Test Pattern posted:I liked this show, and then Harrow had a dream in which he received Rawls' Theory of Justice, and decided to live by it. Then I LOVED it.
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Feb 20, 2019 22:54
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Test Pattern posted:Claudia, at least, seemed somewhat hesitant and somewhat guilty. I suspect if deer work, then humans might too, and if Viren figures that out we're off to the loving races. We have already seen Viren's value for human life when he wanted to use the soul swapping snake on a random guard to save the king. If humans made good magic he's be anatomizing them like a 1800's phrenologist.
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Feb 21, 2019 00:07
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Taear posted:I think every creature is magical in this, other than humans. Humans can be magical too, as Callum demonstrates at the end.
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Feb 21, 2019 04:15
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I lost my poo poo when I saw the ancient Aaravos texts and it was all in Danish. Villads Spangsberg making moves apparently.
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Feb 24, 2019 13:29
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This show isn't a Voltron situation where they have a guaranteed run of episodes is it? Anyone got any idea as to how well Season 2 is doing? I see major thirst for Aaravos (justifiably, goddamn) on social media, which is a good sign. (Shout out to Janai too.) I hope it continues for a long time yet, because this show is drat entertaining, and manages to really engage with its themes in ways that are so enriching and/or affirming. It's gorgeous to look at as well. ^Really enjoyed the Dark Magic & ethics chat above too.^
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Feb 26, 2019 16:07
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I believe they have six seasons planned in terms of the storyline, but no announcements on if they're confirmed for next season yet. I'd imagine it's doing pretty well though.
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Feb 26, 2019 20:36
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