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uninterrupted posted:Lol now appointing judges who don’t like the overthrow of the government is illegal. So that poll about 85% of them went Maduro out and a new election is fake news too eh?
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Feb 20, 2019 00:17
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Everything against Maudro is fake. Everyone is well fed, oil output is up, everyone regularly holds parades congratulating Maduro for a great job, and the 3 million people leaving are actually US sleeper agents making Venezuela look bad. You would better off arguing Maduro has been forced into a dictatorship due to US meddling than to outright deny it, but that would mean accepting Maduro has actually done something wrong which is unacceptable to tankies who will desperately hold onto any leader who claims to be socialist while denying the actions they take. It's not a matter of whose right or wrong but merely one of ideology which makes left leaning people look loving awful by association.
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Feb 20, 2019 00:22
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ChaseSP posted:Everything against Maudro is fake. Everyone is well fed, oil output is up, everyone regularly holds parades congratulating Maduro for a great job, and the 3 million people leaving are actually US sleeper agents making Venezuela look bad. who itt is saying Maduro does nothing wrong again
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Feb 20, 2019 00:31
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sexpig by night posted:who itt is saying Maduro does nothing wrong again Well the people posting literal state-sponsored propaganda about how the food shortages are #fakenews isn't helping your side much.
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Feb 20, 2019 00:34
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sexpig by night posted:who itt is saying Maduro does nothing wrong again functionally caps lock broken, for one  at least until maduro defaults on his debt to China or China decides to back The Coalition Formerly Known As MUD
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Feb 20, 2019 00:36
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so, no one, cool.
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Feb 20, 2019 00:36
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sexpig by night posted:who itt is saying Maduro does nothing wrong again
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Feb 20, 2019 00:38
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Bob le Moche posted:The imaginary tankies they have to conjure up red-scare-style to justify their position tbf your position isn't that Maduro did nothing wrong, it's that we're not allowed to ever say anything he did wrong because that means we support a US invasion and you've been consistent with that for years
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Feb 20, 2019 00:40
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GreyjoyBastard posted:tbf your position isn't that Maduro did nothing wrong, it's that we're not allowed to ever say anything he did wrong because that means we support a US invasion I mean, it's more that you can't support a super shady coup by saying 'actually the constitution says that being a bad president is basically not being in office (ignore the supreme court please)' without playing into imperialist agendas
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Feb 20, 2019 00:43
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sexpig by night posted:I mean, it's more that you can't support a super shady coup by saying 'actually the constitution says that being a bad president is basically not being in office (ignore the supreme court please)' without playing into imperialist agendas no no, i'm not disagreeing with that particular stance in this post, i'm just following up on the "who here is saying [tempting hyperbole]" by noting that as much as I disagree with basically every Bob le Moche post in this thread, his position has been very consistent for waaaaaaaay longer than the last few weeks, and is clearly distinguishable from Maduro-did-nothing-wrong
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Feb 20, 2019 00:46
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sexpig by night posted:who itt is saying Maduro does nothing wrong again The ones strenuously maintaining that he didn't kick off a constitutional crisis by totally icing out the first branch of government he lost control of and then setting up a parallel chamber plus packing the supreme court during the lame duck session to rubberstamp all of it. When pressed to say what the defenders of the regime think Maduro is doing wrong very little is forthcoming, while the apparent sins of the legislature are very easy to come by as far as they are concerned and endlessly repeated.
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Feb 20, 2019 00:48
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sexpig by night posted:'actually the constitution says that being a bad president is basically not being in office (ignore the supreme court please)' Again, this is an absurd simplification of the issues that doesn't help you or anyone who thinks this way come to an informed opinion. EDIT: Some Venezuela-related food-for-thought: https://twitter.com/GRamsey_LatAm/status/1094317316760895488
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Feb 20, 2019 00:50
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Gee, I wonder where that 9 mil went. (into Maduro's pocket, of course)
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Feb 20, 2019 00:58
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GreyjoyBastard posted:and you've been consistent with that for years Bob le Moche posted:I want to make the point that people who seek intervention will try to manipulate your perception of what's happening in order to silence any qualms you might have about it, but they will never openly tell you that this is what they really stand for. They want to make sure that when the US does decide to intervene, the dominant narrative in North America is that it's for humanitarian reasons and that any opposition can easily be painted as supporting an evil totalitarian despot, this is what ensures that imperialist governments can get away with enforcing their interests on the rest of the world without opposition from their own citizens.
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Feb 20, 2019 01:03
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The point is thatGreyjoyBastard posted:your position isn't that Maduro did nothing wrong, it's that we're not allowed to ever say anything he did wrong because that means we support a US invasion is a distinction without a difference, aside from its myopic focus on the United States. AGGGGH BEES posted:Gee, I wonder where that 9 mil went. I don't know that we can assume that without more info on where it wound up-I'd be curious about how to go about tracking that.
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Feb 20, 2019 01:09
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sexpig by night posted:we must follow the constitution, unless the constitution disagrees with me then those are fake judges Tbf we don't know what their high school drinking habits were like.
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Feb 20, 2019 01:19
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Tbf we don't know what their high school drinking habits were like. They literally did not follow any of the procedures required by law for appointing the new judges. Its not a case of 'oh we don't know if they drank', its 'these judges should not be on the court because all the laws about judicial candidates were violated to pack the court.'
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Feb 20, 2019 01:48
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The kind of thing that gets me is Maduro is basically running an IMF SAP already, if not in name.
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Feb 20, 2019 01:51
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quote:The PSUV had lost a battle, but the war had yet to be fought. The party gave away its strategy for counteracting the opposition controlling the National Assembly even before the new legislature was sworn in. On December 23, 2015, in what would become the latest parliamentary session held by the PSUV-controlled National Assembly, the party appointed 13 new magistrates (and 20 substitute magistrates) to the Tribunal Supremo de Justicia (TSJ), Venezuela's top court. The magistrates, who would later be known as the "magistrados express", were appointed in a rush without any of the vetting process required by law. The PSUV even threatened and extorted magistrates into resigning early so that it could re-fill their seats before the opposition took control of the legislature. This is in the op's second post. If you don't think this strips the Venezuelan judicial system of legitimacy, then you really have to read the op to get a better grasp of how broken the law is in Venezuela.
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Feb 20, 2019 01:56
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Venezuela: For the love of God, read the OP
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Feb 20, 2019 01:59
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patonthebach posted:How is he supposed to do that when Maduro is still in power and won't step down or call real elections? ... he's offering to call elections? Or by "real" elections do you mean ones that the USA approves of because if that's the criteria then lol sexpig by night posted:who itt is saying Maduro does nothing wrong again yeah idk
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Feb 20, 2019 01:59
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AGGGGH BEES posted:Gee, I wonder where that 9 mil went. Yeah dude Lex Luthor over here stealing cakes It's funny how when anyone questions Guiado ya'll trip over yourselves to declare 'tankies repeating state propaganda' but meanwhile your depiction of Maduro is just literal moustache twirling villain hoarding all the money and food and oil for nebulous reasons while his country dissolves around him. What would his endplan even be? Or is he just evil and didn't consider it? Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 02:02
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Maduro has exclusively offered to call elections for the National Assembly, the one branch of government he has not yet seized, and which he has previously approached through a program of arresting opposing party leaders and candidates and barring them from office. This history is discussed in the OP and second post.
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Feb 20, 2019 02:03
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Discendo Vox posted:Maduro has exclusively offered to call elections for the National Assembly, the one branch of government he has not yet seized, and which he has previously approached through a program of arresting opposing party leaders and candidates and barring them from office. This history is discussed in the OP and second post. So they're not going to call for elections. How has he seized the supreme court? RBG gonna die any moment now and Trump gonna get a 3rd appointee does that mean he's seized SCOTUS?
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Feb 20, 2019 02:05
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If republicans rammed 7 court members into the SC, yes? I don't see you point here, this would be blatantly taking hold of a political apparatus. You're blatantly ignoring how the justices weren't even vetted and this was the PSUV seizing power in the wake of losing the National Assembly, and pouting they didn't won't change the facts dude.
ChaseSP fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 02:06
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ChaseSP posted:If republicans suddenly run 7 court members into the SC, yes? lol suddenly run court members in. In 2015 the Congress named 13 judges that were friendly to the party in power to replace outgoing judges and that's somehow illegal or what?
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Feb 20, 2019 02:08
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Moridin920 posted:lol suddenly run court members in. They didn't even vet them through the requirements, yes it is.
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Feb 20, 2019 02:10
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ChaseSP posted:while forcing/bribing existing judges to resign. Like maybe cite something? Is there actual proof of this beyond opposition claims? ChaseSP posted:They didn't even vet them through the requirements, yes it is. Oh like the last SCOTUS justice?
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Feb 20, 2019 02:10
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Yeah, the SCOTUS didn't deserve his assignment? I'm sorry I don't see your point. as for the first point, this article has details on it, albeit in spanish. https://runrun.es/noticias/248932/ex-magistrados-del-tsj-denunciaron-que-fueron-extorsionados-y-amenazados-para-dejar-sus-cargos/ If you actually read the OP's second post you would be able to see this as well as having statements from jurists on how they were pressured out. ChaseSP fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 02:12
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My point is that these illegal court packing arguments are all based on some vague opposition claims that don't have concrete evidence behind them.
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Feb 20, 2019 02:12
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Moridin920 posted:So they're not going to call for elections. I'm not sure why this is difficult to understand, but at the risk of sounding redundant I'll say it again: The presidential election is not going to happen as long as the current National Electoral Council is in power. They are the ones who call, organize and call elections. The NEC is a branch of Maduro's office. They went as far as to falsify the results of the Constituent Assembly vote to favour Maduro, as I've said numerous times in this thread. An independent NEC would have called elections the day Guaido took on the role of interim president, which is when the 30 day countdown begins. It did not. This is not Guaido's fault, or the opposition's. Moridin920 posted:My point is that these illegal court packing arguments are all based on some vague opposition claims that don't have concrete evidence behind them. As I mentioned earlier, one argument is that the Court was packed with 13 magistrates on the last days of the PSUV-controlled parliamentary session in 2015 without the necessary oversight and accountability measures. This resulted in, for example, the appointment of a PSUV parliamentary politician as a Supreme Court magistrate. The reason why the PSUV packed them into the Court is clear: as a safety measure against the opposition-controlled National Assembly, which was to be seated in January 2016. And look at what happened. The PSUV's plan worked. I understand that the language barrier is a huge practical element to finding out what's going on in Venezuela, but it's generally a good idea to not assume that just because you're not aware of an argument it means that it doesn't exist. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 02:13
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Discendo Vox posted:Venezuela: For the love of God, read the OP Seriously, that should be the new thread title, because people are coming into the thread assuming that any Venezuelan supreme court rulings from 2016 onwards are considered legitimate and that the national assembly being illegally stripped of power in multiple ways all fine and legal brcause the courts ruled on it.
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Feb 20, 2019 02:16
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Moridin920 posted:My point is that these illegal court packing arguments are all based on some vague opposition claims that don't have concrete evidence behind them. Yes, just coincidentally everyone left after the PSUV lost, after which it immediately began to struck down anything the National Assembly passed, certainly organic 
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Feb 20, 2019 02:19
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Moridin920 posted:My point is that these illegal court packing arguments are all based on some vague opposition claims that don't have concrete evidence behind them. Read the op's second post dude, there are links to sources (some spanish language) in the descriptions of events.
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Feb 20, 2019 02:22
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One of the links are broken, but the other still works. http://www.talcualdigital.com/Nota/121704/chavismo-nombro-nuevos-magistrados-del-tsj-a-golpe-y-mazazo-lista this is the one that no longer works if anyone is willing to actually hunt down a reporting the nomination of multiple 13 new magistrates. How about we look at how they outright stripped three exact seats so that the National Assembly couldn't have a supermajority? ChaseSP fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 02:23
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Pharohman777 posted:Seriously, that should be the new thread title, because people are coming into the thread assuming that any Venezuelan supreme court rulings from 2016 onwards are considered legitimate and that the national assembly being illegally stripped of power in multiple ways all fine and legal brcause the courts ruled on it. It's partly a joke; the people making these claims are overwhelmingly being disingenuous, they don't care about any of the context, history, or facts.
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Feb 20, 2019 02:32
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The court didn't even allow the national assembly to function even after the opposition relented and conceded that the 3 members that were stripped of their seats were illegitimate.quote:In August 20 2016, the TSJ got tired of annulling individual laws as they were being published. On that day, TSJ annulled seven parliamentary sessions held in April in May of that year, erasing two months of legislative work with a single ruling. On September 5, the TSJ stepped up its game: it issued a ruling declaring the National Assembly in contempt for having sworn-in the Amazonas deputies, and declared all of its future actions to be null, void and without any effect. The September 5 ruling essentially killed the National Assembly. The MUD's parliamentary wing was thrown into disarray. The op clearly shows why Guiado chose to challenge maduro like this. There are literally no other options left for the opposition.
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Feb 20, 2019 02:36
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Moridin920 posted:Yeah dude Lex Luthor over here stealing cakes Are you saying Maduro hasn't in fact being stealing from his citizens for years? Or that he only has been stealing a bit and not a bunch?
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Feb 20, 2019 03:02
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Multiple higher ups in the PSUV having offshore bank accounts with millions isn't enough of a sign something is up? I mean, two of the ex-ministers under Chavez admitted there was serious corruption issues in the making. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-idUSKCN0VB26F quote:Hector Navarro, who ran five ministries under Chavez’s rule, will ask a state ethics council to review the operations of the 13-year-old exchange control mechanism that opposition leaders have described as a “corruption machine.” I mean I don't know why I'm bothering to post this, you don't care about Venezuleans at all while you sit comfy posting online defending Maduro, they're starving as a product of terrible policies making it impossible for businesses to actually sell food via import while the government gives out scraps. ChaseSP fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 03:05
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Pharohman777 posted:The court didn't even allow the national assembly to function even after the opposition relented and conceded that the 3 members that were stripped of their seats were illegitimate. Also, don't forget that the opposition spent the better part of 2016 jumping through all of the hoops that the National Electoral Council put up for the recall referendum drive, which would have seen Maduro lose the vote. The regime put up all kinds of tricks to stop the vote from happening, including multiplying the requirements to collect the signatures and dragging its feet at every step to wind down the clock. For example, the Council made up a requirement that the opposition had to collect signatures from 1% of registered voters in each state as opposed to in the entire country in order to multiply the logistical requirement by 24 (23 plus the Capital District). The Council gave the opposition 30 days in late April to collect signatures, which amounted to about 195,000. When the opposition collected 1.85 million signatures in favour of the recall referendum in less than a week, the Council refused to accept and verify them before the 30-day period was done. It just sat on them in order to wind down the clock. The Council then ruled in October that it just wasn't going to bother holding the recall vote, citing decisions made in the lower penal courts of five states within 35 minutes of each other, all finding in favour of the PSUV in lawsuits alleging that the opposition committed fraud in the collection of the 1% of the signatures (which, again, was a fictitious requirement). The decisions made no sense for a number of reasons, including the fact that the Council had checked and verified all of the signatures as legitimate earlier in the year. A former Supreme Court justice pointed out that the five courts on whose rulings the Council based its decision did not have the ability to affect electoral policy because they were penal courts, which can only rule in the cases directly before them (keep in mind here that Venezuela is a civil law country).The former justice explained: quote:Penal courts are not capable [issuing rulings that affect electoral policy]. They can only deal with the concrete cases that are before them, such as identity theft [for the purposes of committing electoral fraud]. Aside from that, they have no power [to do what they have done]. The history of Venezuela under Maduro is the history of a people trying to use their law and their institutions to do what they were intended to do: remove dictators from power. At every step of the way, the regime has worked tirelessly to make this impossible. The regime's reaction to Guaido using the Constitution to take on the role of interim president is another chapter in this same story. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 03:27
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