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It’s also extra confusing because Herbert wrote different interpretations of the religion taking into account the characters writing the history. So like if that analysis of Paul’s religion is by a religious person they interpret his prophecy as metaphysical even if Paul was just manipulating the missionary protectiva. Its kind of genius of Herbert to create a situation where it could be either.
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Feb 19, 2019 07:19
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D. Ebdrup posted:Paul was also explicitly trained by his mother in all manner of ways, so it's not unreasonable to assume he knew BG manipulated religions and took advantage of that to grasp the Desert Power that his father spoke of, after Atreides been made into a guerilla house, after the "sleeper had awakened".
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Feb 19, 2019 07:27
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The Atriedes loyalty seems more like the radical idea of 'be nice to the little people and they'll appreciate it' which is obviously a big contrast to the Harkonnens. It's a bit funny in that it's often approached cynically in a bit of a 'bread and circuses' fashion, but it's just good advice that good PR reaps dividends. I think the OCB and associated religion is treated much like real-life major religion in that there's tons of different interpretations, factions and movements, with the Fremen being a related but distinct faith that becomes very much its own thing with the arrival of Muad'Dib (being the Mohammed analogy here, among other things). That and the Empire was fairly tolerant of religious diversity as long as they didn't make trouble, while the Fremen Jihadis very much weren't. And it's implied (or outright stated) the BG deliberately take advantage of such local religious developments and direct them to have narratives that future BG know and can take advantage of. Kind of the point was that nobody, including the BG and the Empire, and Kynes who was all too aware of it, could be prepared for the emergence of an actual messiah prophet.
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Feb 19, 2019 07:51
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The Atriedes loyalty seems more like the radical idea of 'be nice to the little people and they'll appreciate it' which is obviously a big contrast to the Harkonnens. It's a bit funny in that it's often approached cynically in a bit of a 'bread and circuses' fashion, but it's just good advice that good PR reaps dividends. They also weren't out to wring every drop of natural resources out of the biosphere as quickly as possible or anything, though their fortune was based on exporting natural resources like rice, fish and water. They very clearly represent Herbert's own views on sustainable natural resource use in contrast with the Harkonnens and their Corrino backers.
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Feb 19, 2019 08:00
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space jews
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Feb 19, 2019 08:21
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dook leetoh
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Feb 19, 2019 08:22
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The point of Paul being given the OC Bible was that it was part of his Mentat training. The great houses themselves are pretty secular.
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Feb 19, 2019 09:17
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It does seem significant that the Corrino prince in Children of Dune iirc actually seeks to embrace the religion of Muad'Dib to better understand it. Funny thing is the Corrinos actually seem pretty cool, just usually in way over their heads when it comes to Arrakis.
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Feb 19, 2019 09:36
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Edison was a dick posted:The point of Paul being given the OC Bible was that it was part of his Mentat training. Eh, certain philosophies from it have dug in pretty deep. The computing prohibition is an OC bible decree and the characters all deeply and genuinely believe it's Right.
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Feb 19, 2019 09:39
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It does seem significant that the Corrino prince in Children of Dune iirc actually seeks to embrace the religion of Muad'Dib to better understand it. Funny thing is the Corrinos actually seem pretty cool, just usually in way over their heads when it comes to Arrakis. I thought that was his mom getting the Captain of the Sardukar to fake embrace it, but he got REALLLLLY into it and it rubbed off on the Corrino prince.
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Feb 19, 2019 09:40
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All this talk of religions reminds me that there's one of the appendicies that actually cover what came to be the Orange Catholic Bible, I'm just not sure it's a smart idea to reproduce it here so I'll simply go ahead and suggest that all of you should read that for more information on the in-universe explanation for why the precepts of the Butlerian Jihad came to be in a religious text.
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Feb 19, 2019 09:43
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Is that one where it says something along the lines of "there's something so important in the development of religion that it can only be written this way: S P A C E T R A V E L !" Cos it's a fairly jarring change of tone (albeit pretty funny)
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Feb 19, 2019 10:00
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S P I C E T R A V E L
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Feb 19, 2019 10:09
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Here it is guys, here is the reason for @duneauthor's insistence on writing his lovely books. https://twitter.com/DuneAuthor/status/1097241595873640448
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Feb 19, 2019 14:07
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Tree Bucket posted:Is that one where it says something along the lines of "there's something so important in the development of religion that it can only be written this way: I found it, here: 
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Feb 19, 2019 14:43
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Anne Frank Funk posted:Here it is guys, here is the reason for @duneauthor's insistence on writing his lovely books.
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Feb 19, 2019 15:34
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Orange(Protestant)-Catholic Bible While the introduction of the bible at the right time helped Paul become Paul-Muad'dib, I dont think it was a part of his mentant training. Didnt yooie give it to him on the dl?
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Feb 19, 2019 15:39
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A_Bug_That_Thinks posted:Orange(Protestant)-Catholic Bible When Paul's prescience is kicking off and he's realizing he's been trained to be a mentat one of the things that twigs him in is "exposure to the OC bible at a critical moment"
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Feb 19, 2019 15:56
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They outright tell paul he's been trained as a mentat because he can't proceed without being told first. his mom and dad just bring it up and are like hey ya, we've been training you as a mentat on the DL and now you've got a choice to make
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Feb 19, 2019 17:41
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Yeah Paul might mention the OC bible as shocking him into higher awareness at some point but I think Yueh actually giving it to him was an impulse, right after he does so he has a bit of inner monologue where he wonders if he gave it to him out of guilt IIRC.
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Feb 19, 2019 18:22
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The thing that Herbert didn't even realize is that the Tleilaxu are decedents of incels.
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Feb 19, 2019 19:18
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MikeJF posted:Eh, certain philosophies from it have dug in pretty deep. The computing prohibition is an OC bible decree and the characters all deeply and genuinely believe it's Right. Yeah, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a “Thou Shalt Not Kill” situation, where it’s a commandment from a religious text and also something that’s generally agreed on as a good idea otherwise.
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Feb 19, 2019 20:01
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Remember that the name, Orange-catholic, was meant to be a shortcut to readers to signify an omni-religion. I am positive that if it was written today, it's name would be closer to Islamic-christianity. About a 3rd of the quotes from the books are directly lifted from the Qur'an. "From water does all life begin" one of the most important, for example.
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Feb 19, 2019 22:25
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So was Ix originally supposed to be Pluto? I assumed it due to the mystery of surrounding the planet and the name based only on a corrupted Roman numeral when I first read the books many years ago. Google tells me KJA/BH gave it a different name later. I liked the idea of quarantining advanced technological research to a distant planet that you can just nuke if you accidentally invent Skynet, but I can't remember if this was supported at all by the text.
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Feb 19, 2019 23:09
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They have long since moved on from this solar system when Ix came around.
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Feb 19, 2019 23:11
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Yeah I don't see the sense in it being Pluto when there are so many colonized worlds that presumably didn't have to be terraformed. The light speed limitation is practically the same whether you're jumping one solar system or across the universe. Is it ever explicitly stated that space folding happened first before any substantial colonization? I mean none of it really holds up when 1/10 jumps resulted in destruction before the discovery of spice, but I guess this is a universe where divine providence arguably exists for real.
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Feb 19, 2019 23:19
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They talk about a 'ghost ship' of pre-guild legend and compare them to atreides forces on arrakis, but don't specify whether they are pre-holtzman.
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Feb 19, 2019 23:30
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Ix's origins doesn't get a lot of explanation until KJA and BH got their idiot hands on it. I choose to ignore everything those two ever wrote.
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Feb 19, 2019 23:30
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kiimo posted:Ix's origins doesn't get a lot of explanation until KJA and BH got their idiot hands on it. I choose to ignore everything those two ever wrote. This is the no-@duneauthor zone after all. Some of the first prequels and the new sequels have elements I can believe came from notes but most of it is invented.
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Feb 19, 2019 23:32
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kiimo posted:The thing that Herbert didn't even realize is that the Tleilaxu are decedents of incels. They're more volcels since they wilfully choose not to gently caress and instead turn their women into loving horrible incubators.
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Feb 20, 2019 00:52
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BONGHITZ posted:dook leetoh d3wk 1337-0
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Feb 20, 2019 01:49
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kiimo posted:Ix's origins doesn't get a lot of explanation until KJA and BH got their idiot hands on it. I choose to ignore everything those two ever wrote. I thought the name being Roman numerals came from the Dune encyclopedia.
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Feb 20, 2019 03:07
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Leto II says something along the lines of "if they only knew the name of their planet was just a corrupted terran number" in god emperor
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Feb 20, 2019 03:13
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Messiah (I think?). Yeah, we know Ix is called Ix because it's the ninth planet of its system.
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 03:39
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Dave Dastmalchian joins the cast of Dune as Piter!!
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Feb 20, 2019 03:49
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Leto II mentions it too, but in Children: But that too would change as lx had changed. For they were merely the ninth planet of their sun, and had even forgotten the language which had given them their name.
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Feb 20, 2019 03:50
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kiimo posted:Dave Dastmalchian joins the cast of Dune as Piter!! nice
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Feb 20, 2019 04:05
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Doesn't Leto II spend a lot of time persecuting historians for being poo poo at their jobs?
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Feb 20, 2019 06:21
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Doesn't Leto II spend a lot of time persecuting historians for being poo poo at their jobs? He only really had a go at ones that were deliberately misrepresenting, I think.
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Feb 20, 2019 07:09
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kiimo posted:Dave Dastmalchian joins the cast of Dune as Piter!! Coco will make a great Piter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbgXo3CHJ2I
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Feb 20, 2019 08:43
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