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Kai Tave posted:They do though. It's not even "goon hyperbole," if someone forwards you concerns that someone is an abuser and you share that information with the person in question, including names, you are a huge piece of poo poo. Even if we assume the absolute best of Mearls, that he did not in fact share anything with Zak S. He absolutely solicited allegations with zero intent to do anything about it, and did nothing about it. Like, Zak S wasn't some aboveboard motherfucker in 2014, and Mearls both actively pursued him and forced his inclusion into 5E. And he has specifically tried to avoid any culpability for this. He's utter poo poo in the best-case scenario and it goes downhill from there.
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Feb 20, 2019 03:52
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Elephant Parade posted:I don't think Mike Mearls's prior actions confirm him as a piece of poo poo, just someone with remarkably terrible judgement. His continued failure to acknowledge and apologize for his mistake, on the other hand, absolutely does. It honestly might depend on how much info he gave Zak back then. Was it like names and emails/other contact info which probably should be (but unlikely to) illegal or was it more BRO PEEPS BE SAYIN MAD poo poo BOUT YOU. THEY SAID X AND ITS NOT TRUE RIGHT? Like the more info he may have given Zak the worse off he looks. SAY IT AINT SO is a a far cry from HERE ARE NAMES, CONTACT INFO, AND ENTIRE POSTS OF WHAT THESE PEOPLE SAID THAT YOU SOMEONE WHO CURRENTLY OR SOON WILL BE KNOWN AS SOMEONE WHO STALKS ONLINE AND GOOGLES YOUR NAME TO GET INTO ONLINE HARASSMENT CAMPAIGNS IF THEY DON'T AGREE WITH YOU AND VERBALLY FELLATE CONSTANTLY. One level is just kind of stupid but an understandable thing one might do for a friend they don't realize is a shitlord. The other as I said ought to be illegal. The question is where Mearls is on that scale. (And if there is proof and what kind.) And the follow up is what WOTC or Hasbro will do about it if just for PR optics even if by and large most people do not know or care about any of these people or even that they wrote a DnD thing. Like that Disney Alligator thing a few years back. People told me there was no way they would put up fencing that wouldn't do anything where I said they would. It LOOKS GOOD to do something even if its gently caress all use. If dropping Mearls like a hot potato looks good it'll be done unless he has some ironclad contract or the guy has some serious cachet/dirt on higher ups.
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Feb 20, 2019 04:01
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Impermanent posted:maybethis is a pivot due to how well the new mtg online thing is going Wizards is probably doing this in order to jump the blame onto retailers for increasing the retail cost of a pack when they increase the wholesale cost
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Feb 20, 2019 04:03
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Darwinism posted:Also even if you inflicted harm accidentally you still inflicted harm, you are not innocent because you hurt someone out of stupidity. Jesus loving Christ I shouldn't have to say this to an adult. I know this. And I have explicitly stated that is why he needs to apologize. Him not listening to the people who accused Zak was horrible mistake, and he should apologize for it, even if it costs him his job. Gerund posted:in alliance with an abuser This is pure conjecture. Here I am just going to get my views of the situation out here as I am tired of this. In 2014 Mearls and D&D Team hire Zak as a consultant for the PHB, this is a move to get the people that follow him into the new edition, he is a controversial figure But it is not known at this point he is a full on abuser. Mearls later gets lots of messages about Zak and harassment, but ultimately blows them off. A bad move and he should have put together that 1 + 1 = 2 and that they should not associate with him, but gives him consultant credit anyway. After this the D&D Team and Zak have no further interaction. After Zak was revealed to be an abuser. Mearls puts out a statement that they have not done anything with him since 2014, but he also should have apologized here for not listening to the statements about Zak. The D&D Team puts out out statement also saying they have had no connection with Zak since 2014, regret doing so, and plan to strike him from the record of their product. They also bring up a charity event they are connected to. Yes they could do more, and they probably should. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 04:04
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MonsterEnvy posted:I know this. And I have explicitly stated that is why he needs to apologize. Him not listening to the people who accused Zak was horrible mistake, and he should apologize for it, even if it costs him his job. So he's done nothing except try and weasel out of it when absolutely forced to, and this is okay because you met him once and he's nice And you're mystified why people are calling you a piece of poo poo abuse enabler when you are specifically arguing for why someone should not be responsible for enabling an abuser
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Feb 20, 2019 04:12
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Darwinism posted:So he's done nothing except try and weasel out of it when absolutely forced to, and this is okay because you met him once and he's nice Once again I did not say this is OK. I outright said he needs to apologize even if it costs him his job because it is not OK.
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Feb 20, 2019 04:14
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MonsterEnvy posted:Once again I did not say this is OK. I outright said he needs to apologize even if it costs him his job. But you're also perfectly okay with him not apologizing. edit: to be more clear, you're perfectly okay with him having done gently caress all for five years, and you're perfectly okay with him actively trying to obfuscate his role once the confrontation was forced, and you're perfectly fine with the fact that he might have shared the info with Zak if he did it stupidly. But you definitely want him to apologize no matter what. Sure. Darwinism fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 04:16
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S.J. posted:Wizards is probably doing this in order to jump the blame onto retailers for increasing the retail cost of a pack when they increase the wholesale cost Oh yeah. This is all just a big effort to cut out wholesalers totally too I assume.
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Feb 20, 2019 04:16
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Darwinism posted:But you're also perfectly okay with him not apologizing. What I just said he should apologize.
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Feb 20, 2019 04:29
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Oh yeah. This is all just a big effort to cut out wholesalers totally too I assume. Yeah, gently caress capitalism
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Feb 20, 2019 04:31
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MonsterEnvy posted:What I just said he should apologize. The reason he won't is the same reason you won't apologise for defending his every action for 5+ years. Neither of you believe you've done anything wrong. You're still, on this page making excuses for him.
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Feb 20, 2019 04:35
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I mostly lurk and don't post, but I love the community that exists here. In the spirit of that, regarding Jaym Gates, she is a personal friend of mine and I have invited her to register here to engage with the community. I feel like this is a place she will fit and can find some of the support she desperately needs in a time like this. If she does decide to join, I will let her introduce herself to you goons. Edit: I am a colossal idiot who cant even spell my friends name correctly Sidestep fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 04:36
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MonsterEnvy posted:What I just said he should apologize. Where do you stand on Zak Smith? Should he also apologize? I mean, not to defend him, but "he should apologize" is clearly a pretty harsh condemnation. some would call it character assassination. Is it possible, in your mind, for a person to behave badly enough that they cross over from "they should say sorry for the things they've done" to "they're a piece of poo poo, and yes they should say sorry for the things they've done, but at this point they've been bad enough that even if they do, they're still a piece of poo poo"? Or is "they should apologise" the absolute bedrock of evil, a supercategory stretched broad enough to fit both Hitler and your little brother when he ate your dessert?"
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Feb 20, 2019 04:42
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Sidestep posted:I mostly lurk and don't post, but I love the community that exists here. In the spirit of that, regarding Jayme Gates, she is a personal friend of mine and I have invited her to register here to engage with the community. Hell if she decides to join, I'll buy the account for her.
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Feb 20, 2019 04:43
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To be "fair", forwarding complainant information to the subject of those complaints is absolutely something I've seen well-meaning people do in unprofessional environments. Yes, it's unbelievably stupid, but it's often the refuge of the naive to think that "Oh, this person isn't so bad, I can trust them with this so we can fix..." The key is that once they realize how they hosed up, most people will own up to it, but nobody in the D&D office did that. Of course, Mearls could have tied hands, legal could certainly be saying "don't you dare admit to wrongdoing". Of course, he could also choose to eat the consequences on that, but I wouldn't expect that given his track record. And it's also important to remember that Mearls has a boss somewhere who's also overseen all of this... or at least blithely ignored it. (I have no idea who, because Wizards doesn't have any sort of transparent corporate directory that I've been able to find.) Mind, I'm not saying that to defend Mearls - I broke up with D&D ages ago, and 5th edition was worse than disappointing - but that there are a myriad ways things can end up lovely. It's easy to think of Mearls as the lone authority here, a loose cannon. But even if he is somehow acting in a rogue or unsupervised fashion, that means somebody else fell down on the job. Ultimately, there's just not enough corporate will to make the D&D office more than a pablum factory, both in terms of product and in terms of PR. Given the remarkably bland product, a remarkably bland response shouldn't be too much of a surprise.
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Feb 20, 2019 04:45
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Sage Genesis posted:Hell if she decides to join, I'll buy the account for her. I offered the same. We will see what she decides. The sheer fact she is being believed after years of being doubted is in her words, "a huge relief."
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Feb 20, 2019 04:47
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Sidestep posted:I offered the same. We will see what she decides. Ha, should've guessed that. Well whether so joins or not, I'm glad people believe her.
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Feb 20, 2019 04:51
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Alien Rope Burn posted:To be "fair", forwarding complainant information to the subject of those complaints is absolutely something I've seen well-meaning people do in unprofessional environments. Yes, it's unbelievably stupid, but it's often the refuge of the naive to think that "Oh, this person isn't so bad, I can trust them with this so we can fix..." The key is that once they realize how they hosed up, most people will own up to it, but nobody in the D&D office did that. Of course, Mearls could have tied hands, legal could certainly be saying "don't you dare admit to wrongdoing". Of course, he could also choose to eat the consequences on that, but I wouldn't expect that given his track record. And it's also important to remember that Mearls has a boss somewhere who's also overseen all of this... or at least blithely ignored it. (I have no idea who, because Wizards doesn't have any sort of transparent corporate directory that I've been able to find.) a computing pun posted:Where do you stand on Zak Smith? Should he also apologize? I mean, not to defend him, but "he should apologize" is clearly a pretty harsh condemnation. some would call it character assassination. Zak crossed the line, unless he does something amazing to atone. I don't think he can makeup for his wrong doings. I don't think Mearls crossed that line. But he did a bad thing, and has not made up for it over the years, when he should.
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Feb 20, 2019 04:54
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I believe her. Hope she gets the support she needs.
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Feb 20, 2019 04:54
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So wait, Holden and Morke have been brigading and sending death threats to people who talk about Morke being a sex harasser? I knew Holden being a hypocritical piece of poo poo for continuing to shill for Morke's books while trying to lead the charge on RPG companies for not doing enough to combat abuse. I hadn't heard about them threatening people for speaking out though. Is this new, or did I just miss it in the churn of awful poo poo?
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Feb 20, 2019 04:59
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MonsterEnvy posted:Zak crossed the line, unless he does something amazing to atone. I don't think he can makeup for his wrong doings. What exactly the gently caress do you belive Zak could do to "atone" that would put him back on the right side of your line?
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Feb 20, 2019 05:03
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Ultimately there should have been somebody that looked at Mearls and said "NO" any number of times around the buildup and release of D&D 5th Edition. There was apparently no such person. He's culpable, but he's not alone in his culpability. Hasbro / Wizards' treatment of D&D has been a shitshow for nearly a decade now and this awful loving mess - that got people hurt, legitimately - feels to me like the train crash culmination of them surgically removing talented individuals and winnowing the whole properly down to a skeleton crew of relatively inexperienced staff... who either don't have enough oversight or have the wrong sort of oversight.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:04
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MonsterEnvy posted:After meeting the guy in person I became pretty certain it was an act of incompetence, not malice. He should apologize for not believing people about Zak. Mearls is probably dumber than he is insidious, but you really have no more ground to make an assumption than any random person who has had any public interaction with him, or hell even follows his Twitter. In fact, you realize you're barging into the middle of discourse related to an abuser famous for his charismatic public face, which he used to win over many people to mindlessly defend him? And now those people are coming forward to say "I never would have guessed how he was privately! Sure, he could be dumb about some stuff, but I assumed he was better than this!" I'm going to guess Mearls isn't on the same level (for my own sanity, if nothing else) but we're standing waist deep in a complete refutation of your flimsy "Well I've interacted casually with this person so I can accurately judge their private character" defense possible and you really need to drop that point. Also you really need to come to terms with 1. You like a flawed game 2. This is not an intrinsic attack on you, personally 3. If knowing the game is mechanically rough and headed by a questionable guy, and that makes you feel bad, maybe step back for a while and do something else while you mull over whether it's worth investing more of your life and money in it Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 05:04
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Desiden posted:So wait, Holden and Morke have been brigading and sending death threats to people who talk about Morke being a sex harasser? I knew Holden being a hypocritical piece of poo poo for continuing to shill for Morke's books while trying to lead the charge on RPG companies for not doing enough to combat abuse. I hadn't heard about them threatening people for speaking out though. Is this new, or did I just miss it in the churn of awful poo poo? I don't know how much this was signal boosted and "publicly" known, but it has definitely been put out there for at least 6 months or so.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:05
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MonsterEnvy posted:
I had a whole thing I was planning on writing to you and Arthil but wow. I can't. "Crossed the line"?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?! Is that what we're calling a decade of psycho-sexual abuse now? What? I know you're a famously lovely poster who can't put words together but look at what you just said. Look at what you wrote with your (I assume) human hands. Really think about that. "Crossing the line" is saying something out of turn to your mom or something. The man is a literal rapist and has destroyed at least a dozen lives. Crossing the loving line. gently caress!
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Feb 20, 2019 05:06
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Sidestep posted:I don't know how much this was signal boosted and "publicly" known, but it has definitely been put out there for at least 6 months or so. Yeah, I hadn't heard the whole story and thought I'd been paying attention. But there's been a lot of intimations lately that make it sound like what I knew was the tip of the iceberg.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:08
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Sidestep posted:I don't know how much this was signal boosted and "publicly" known, but it has definitely been put out there for at least 6 months or so. Morke being a creep was being aired a while back, and yeah Holden did his best to derail that with a whattabout on CAS. He was lucky he basically tripped into Green Ronin's bad coverup of their shielding of CAS, and the heinous behavior of GR leadership overshadowed a lot of that. But he did do a lot of damage to the credibility of the stories against CAS with his really transparent game of hot potato.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:14
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Nuns with Guns posted:Morke being a creep was being aired a while back, and yeah Holden did his best to derail that with a whattabout on CAS. He was lucky he basically tripped Green Ronin's bad coverup of their shielding of CAS, and the heinous behavior of GR leadership overshadowed a lot of that. But he did do a lot of damage to the credibility of the stories against CAS with his really transparent game of hot potato. There was somebody else, VL Darling, who did a lot of damage doing the same thing on RPG.net which is why they eventually ate the banhammer.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:15
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Sidestep posted:I don't know how much this was signal boosted and "publicly" known, but it has definitely been put out there for at least 6 months or so. This past weekend I got yelled at and shut down by Holden and all of his friends because I had the audacity to bring up the fact that Holden isn't the ideologically pure savior that he claims to be because I was "taking attention away from Matt". So yeah I do hope that some of this poo poo sticks to him this time around. Dawgstar posted:There was somebody else, VL Darling, who did a lot of damage doing the same thing on RPG.net which is why they eventually ate the banhammer. This was one of those people. Kurieg fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 05:16
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Yeah, I hadn't heard the whole story and thought I'd been paying attention. But there's been a lot of intimations lately that make it sound like what I knew was the tip of the iceberg. Basically the whole TTG scene is having its own #MeToo explosion and given the nature of the community, there's probably loads of stories just waiting to come out that largely have no real legal recourse and a number of stories may fall through the cracks just because there's so many out there right now. With Holden and Morke, Holden's trying to cover his rear end and probably is well intentioned, but the recent post about Morke's actions should be a follow up to drat near every one of Holden's posts and brought up to his Twitter associates.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:17
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Sidestep posted:I mostly lurk and don't post, but I love the community that exists here. In the spirit of that, regarding Jayme Gates, she is a personal friend of mine and I have invited her to register here to engage with the community. I mean that would be cool if she does, I hope people can find a safe place to talk about rpgs and SA TG has done a good job at keep lovely people out for the most part.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:19
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Nuns with Guns posted:Mearls is probably dumber than he is insidious, but you really have no more ground to make an assumption than any random person who has had any public interaction with him, or hell even follows his Twitter. In fact, you realize you're barging into the middle of discourse related to an abuser famous for his charismatic public face, which he used to win over many people to mindlessly defend him? And now those people are coming forward to say "I never would have guessed how he was privately! Sure, he could be dumb about some stuff, but I assumed he was better than this!" Yeah, in a discussion about Zak S, "I met him once and he seemed like a good guy so he can't have done this bad thing" is the dumbest defense possible. As for Holden, I've ignored him since the anti-Arab racism poo poo.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:20
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kingcom posted:I mean that would be cool if she does, I hope people can find a safe place to talk about rpgs and SA TG has done a good job at keep lovely people out for the most part. bedlamdan and monsterenvy and plutonis are all posting in this very thread though
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Feb 20, 2019 05:23
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Mearls 100% was working in concert and alliance with an abuser and went out of the way to break policy to defend him as stated by Wizards Social Management workers. He needs to be fired for making the game industry a worse place by purposefully working with and uplifting abusers.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:25
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Sidestep posted:In the spirit of that, regarding Jaym Gates, she is a personal friend of mine...
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Feb 20, 2019 05:28
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Nuns with Guns posted:"Well I've interacted casually with this person so I can accurately judge their private character" I idolised Mentzer when I was a kid, and I loved the game he made. I met him twice. The second time he remembered me from the first, although it was years later. We drank beer and talked about D&D for about 20 minutes and he was so genuinely great that it was one of my favorite memories of someone I looked up to. Better than meeting any of my musical heroes. Better than meeting Arnold while I was lifting (he corrected my deadlift form!) It hurt me to find out that Frank's a serial harasser, but gently caress him I hope he gets what's coming to him and if I meet him again I'll tell him so right to his stupid loving face. I have never once spoken a word in his defense and I never will because goddamnit you do not loving do that. I can still enjoy BECMI D&D though.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:29
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:What exactly the gently caress do you belive Zak could do to "atone" that would put him back on the right side of your line? Give all of his money to his victims, then turn himself in for his crimes and submit to jail time. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 05:30
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Not to sidetrack too much (although it is still about awful people in gaming) but has there been any update on the Jeremy Hambly's alleged assault at GenCon?
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Feb 20, 2019 05:31
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I swear to god, Twitter is trying to convince me that Holden's middle name is "What about Green Ronin?" You know we can be mad at both of y'all, right?
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Feb 20, 2019 05:31
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MollyMetroid posted:bedlamdan and monsterenvy and plutonis are all posting in this very thread though This is more a comment on how poo poo other rpg sites are than SA being good tbh.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:33
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