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MonsterEnvy posted:This is kind of my view on the thing. I am pretty certain Mearls is the unbelievably stupid area with how he handled this. I don't know if you... understand this? but the reason that you're getting so much poo poo is because every statement you make on the matter is, like, technically correct but way, way less strong than the absolute minimum it should be for the topic, to the point where it seems like you're intentionally trying to downplay or minimise said topic. like, "He did a bad thing, and has not made up for it over the years" is the sort of phrasing that I would use when talking about a person who incompetently broke my coffee machine and refused to pay for it. when speaking about a person who, by your own admission, at the very least: - championed and worked with a person who had been accused of being abusive and harassing, enabling this person to reach a wide audience - either ignored testimony that they were abusive and harassing or dealt with it by informing the accused abuser - for multiple years, refused to own up to what he'd done and EVEN NOW, under huge pressure, is unwilling to admit so much as incompetence - not even malice, but he won't even admit that his actions were bad. I would use words like "his actions are completely unacceptable and the damage they've done to who knows how many people is only made worse by his spineless inability to admit the truth; a sincere apology is the least he could possibly do" at a minimum, and probably follow them up with "given that, he's a piece of poo poo - maybe not an irredeemable one, but he sure hasn't done loving anything to redeem himself". ... okay, other way of putting it. If Mike Mearls apologises tomorrow, will he be off the hook? or is it still reasonable to be angry at him for repeatedly sweeping the harm he caused, intentionally or not, under the rug and avoiding acknowledging making amends to victims until he was forced by one of the larger shitstorms of public pressure in the tabletop medium's history to do so? The way you are posting suggests the answer is "yeah, he'll be off the hook, all he needs is an apology". if that's not how you feel, say so.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:34
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Xiahou Dun posted:I had a whole thing I was planning on writing to you and Arthil but wow. I can't. There are multiple lines to cross. He crossed the one dividing lovely, creepy people and utter scum.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:36
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how many lines did it take to get from lovely poster to abuse-apologist did you have to get a transfer for part of the trip
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Feb 20, 2019 05:37
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kingcom posted:I mean that would be cool if she does, I hope people can find a safe place to talk about rpgs and SA TG has done a good job at keep lovely people out for the most part. The fact that SA TG is one of the best places to discuss TRPGS and such I bring up to people not involved in following fandom drama as a pretty good way of getting across how bizarre and terrible stuff is. Like... this board is both admirably good all things considered most of the time, but that's a weird situation in the modern day.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:39
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:I idolised Mentzer when I was a kid, and I loved the game he made. I met him twice. The second time he remembered me from the first, although it was years later. We drank beer and talked about D&D for about 20 minutes and he was so genuinely great that it was one of my favorite memories of someone I looked up to. Better than meeting any of my musical heroes. Better than meeting Arnold while I was lifting (he corrected my deadlift form!) Right, I get it. It's hard to reconcile things you like with questionable/awful people that made them. I'm still tempted to run Harlem Unbound using Trail of Cthulhu, even after being disappointed with Ken Hite. Seeing him finally drop Zak was a good start, but I'm still going to be thinking for a while about whether or not I want to use/talk up books with his name on them.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:40
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a computing pun posted:okay, other way of putting it. If Mike Mearls apologises tomorrow, will he be off the hook? or is it still reasonable to be angry at him for repeatedly sweeping the harm he caused, intentionally or not, under the rug and avoiding acknowledging making amends to victims until he was forced by one of the larger shitstorms of public pressure in the tabletop medium's history to do so? The way you are posting suggests the answer is "yeah, he'll be off the hook, all he needs is an apology". if that's not how you feel, say so. How forgivable someone is subjective. It's reasonable to still be angry. If he gave an apology tomorrow I would probably forgive him depending on how he put it, for someone else it's reasonable to say he has to do more than that. I am a bleeding heart by nature, so I tend to forgive easily.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:41
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Then why the gently caress isn't your heart bleeding for his victims
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Feb 20, 2019 05:43
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After talking with Jaym a bit, she said it was cool to let you folks know her response to the invite. "I will join once I get some energy to deal with new places. (Yay social anxiety.)" Sooner or later, she will poke her head in and add her voice.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:44
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MollyMetroid posted:Then why the gently caress isn't your heart bleeding for his victims Zak has victims. I don't know of or think Mearls has any. That's why I think he is forgivable. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 05:45
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MonsterEnvy posted:How forgivable someone is subjective. It's reasonable to still be angry. If he gave an apology tomorrow I would probably forgive him depending on how he put it, for someone else it's reasonable to say he has to do more than that. At this point he'd have to do more than that because his response up to this point has shown that he's not contrite. And any apology would have been forced upon him. People can say things and not actually mean them.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:46
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MonsterEnvy posted:Zak has victims. I don't know of or think Mearls has any. You still don't believe his actions hurt anyone? You're still minimising and apologising for his actions? Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 05:48
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gourdcaptain posted:The fact that SA TG is one of the best places to discuss TRPGS and such I bring up to people not involved in following fandom drama as a pretty good way of getting across how bizarre and terrible stuff is. Like... this board is both admirably good all things considered most of the time, but that's a weird situation in the modern day. SA's TG has the dual benefits of being 100% frank about pretty much everything while also being able to keep a good lid on the more problematic people that end up plaguing other TRPG sites. The mods actually care while also allowing for a relatively wide breadth for users to operate which is a rare combination. The community's comparatively small size also helps.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:48
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MonsterEnvy posted:There are multiple lines to cross. He crossed the one dividing lovely, creepy people and utter scum. Are you a native English speaker? "Crossing the line" is an idiom like "letting the cat out of the bag" ; there is no literal line or lines. It's a fixed expression with a meaning of "has done something bad", not "has done something abhorrent and beyond the pale of morality". (Note this is about Zak. I'm starting with the big fish and not touching your Mearls apologia.) That's rhetorical. I know you know what that phrase means and you're just a piece of poo poo. MonsterEnvy posted:How forgivable someone is subjective. It's reasonable to still be angry. If he gave an apology tomorrow I would probably forgive him depending on how he put it, for someone else it's reasonable to say he has to do more than that. Where is your pity for their many, many victims. Ninja edit : gently caress, beaten by like a minute.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:48
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Sidestep posted:After talking with Jaym a bit, she said it was cool to let you folks know her response to the invite. Yeah absolutely, real talk it would be good to get an influx of a lot of people who were pushed out or had to deal with the loving nightmare of the rpg 'community', more often than not they're cool people with unique takes and interesting ideas which would make this place better.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:48
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MonsterEnvy posted:Zak has victims. I don't know of or think Mearls has any. Every loving person in that chain of forwarded emails, every loving person who he failed to listen to, every loving person hurt by zak in the years since his coverup, is his loving victim, you absolute unit of density. Do you *comprehend* that malice is not required for you to hurt the gently caress out of someone? And that the people hurt by someone are the victims, malicious or otherwise? Because that might be a believable out for your poo poo, but otherwise gently caress off enabling abusers
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Feb 20, 2019 05:49
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No see just cause I drank a fifth of Jack and did donuts in the parking lot of an elementary school, I'm blameless for all damages, just stupid. Who could have anticipated this tragedy?
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Feb 20, 2019 05:51
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Xelkelvos posted:Was gonna post about that The most important takeaway from this is that Hasbro considers D&D to be on the level of Jenga, revenue-wise. That's right, a whole product line devoted to fantasy role-playing, tantamount to a literal box of wooden blocks.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:51
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gourdcaptain posted:The fact that SA TG is one of the best places to discuss TRPGS and such I bring up to people not involved in following fandom drama as a pretty good way of getting across how bizarre and terrible stuff is. Like... this board is both admirably good all things considered most of the time, but that's a weird situation in the modern day. As an older nerd who reads and lurks a fair hit but doesn't really engage much with the interwebs, SA TG is legitimately one of the only places left I can stand. There are a few idiots here, but that behaivior never goes unchallenged or just gets accepted. It gets immediately called out and shamed, which I deeply appreciate.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:52
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MonsterEnvy posted:Zak has victims. I don't know of or think Mearls has any. That's why I think he is forgivable. You realize you're trying to dance the same pedantic circles around irl abusers and abuse-enablers that you've used for the past 5 years on Dungeons and Dragons game rules? Seriously, step away for a while and get some perspective here.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:53
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Xiahou Dun posted:Are you a native English speaker? Example: 
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Feb 20, 2019 05:57
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MonsterEnvy posted:Zak has victims. I don't know of or think Mearls has any. That's why I think he is forgivable. ...you have problems with the definition of the word "victim" in regards to Mearls in an aggressively dense way. Seriously, ugh.
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Feb 20, 2019 05:57
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Xiahou Dun posted:Are you a native English speaker? No rear end in a top hat. The idiom is something that can be used here and can be used in differing intensities. It's loving definition is "done something considered unacceptable." Which he very much has. gently caress this you guys keep try to misinterpret what I am saying. And yes I am stupid, an autistic kid only a couple years out of highschool. When stressed I will type things without thinking them through. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 20, 2019 05:58
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All the people Zak abused while Mearls gave him cover are Mearls victims as much as Zaks, regardless of whether it was active malice or sheer, blistering incompetence that drove him to do so
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Feb 20, 2019 06:01
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Nihilarian posted:All the people Zak abused while Mearls gave him cover are Mearls victims as much as Zaks, regardless of whether it was active malice or sheer, blistering incompetence that drove him to do so Ok yeah, that's fair and true, sorry. I really was just not thinking things through and was getting defensive.
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Feb 20, 2019 06:03
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MonsterEnvy posted:I really was just not thinking things through
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Feb 20, 2019 06:06
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It's almost as if certain people in this sub-forum get their jollies on pushing his buttons, knowing that he's going to react a certain way and just keep doing it until either he or they get in trouble over it.
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Feb 20, 2019 06:07
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MonsterEnvy posted:Ok yeah, that's fair and true, sorry. I really was just not thinking things through and was getting defensive. Have you considered... Thinking?
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Feb 20, 2019 06:08
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Arthil posted:It's almost as if certain people in this sub-forum get their jollies on pushing his buttons, knowing that he's going to react a certain way and just keep doing it until either he or they get in trouble over it. And here you are again, defending the abuse apologist.
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Feb 20, 2019 06:09
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Arthil posted:It's almost as if certain people in this sub-forum get their jollies on pushing his buttons, knowing that he's going to react a certain way and just keep doing it until either he or they get in trouble over it. Yes, indeed, how dare people continue their stance of, "defending abusers is bad whoever you are," truly the people who have a problem with, "maybe abuse enablers who never apologize are actually innocent and good," are the unreasonable people in this situation You dumb gently caress
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Feb 20, 2019 06:11
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Nuns with Guns posted:
It does not bother me. I also don't even know him very well, In fact I don't even really like Mearls and a lot of his design decisions. I have no goddamn idea why I feel compelled to defend him in this meager way, I don't talk about or even think about him in any other place. Yet I always feel like being a devil's advocate in regards here. Maybe MollyMetroid is right and I can't feel bad properly for the faceless victims, and that is loving up were my morals should fall in this topic. I am sorry, I legit don't know what I am thinking right now. Arthil posted:It's almost as if certain people in this sub-forum get their jollies on pushing his buttons, knowing that he's going to react a certain way and just keep doing it until either he or they get in trouble over it. Thanks. But I am starting to be kinda weirdly convinced by them. Which is kind of messing me up, cause I don't think my emotions have changed. I need a break. I hate this topic. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 06:14
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Darwinism posted:Yes, indeed, how dare people continue their stance of, "defending abusers is bad whoever you are," truly the people who have a problem with, "maybe abuse enablers who never apologize are actually innocent and good," are the unreasonable people in this situation I'm reading that post repeatedly and wondering whatever the gently caress you're on about with it. Guy goes the past few pages putting down Mearls but... it's somehow apologizing for it? The gently caress is wrong with you people, seriously? Does every post that puts down a scumbag have to use very specific, predefined and approved choice of words? Like ya'll know my stance with all of this, Zak deserves to get bricked in the face and Mearls should feel lucky if he keeps his job at the end of all this. But all of you take it way too far with MonsterEnvy, to an absolutely horrific degree in some cases. Being a bully, baiting people into replying in certain ways, cutting out small parts of a person's post and going "What do you MEAN by THIS?!" It's all here in this sub-forum. But no one is going to accept that, simply because the guy took longer than you like to think bad of someone adjacent to a horrific piece of poo poo.
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Feb 20, 2019 06:19
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Arthil posted:I'm reading that post repeatedly and wondering whatever the gently caress you're on about with it. Guy goes the past few pages putting down Mearls but... it's somehow apologizing for it? you are very sensitive to people being dogpiled, unless it's arivia, in which case you gleefully join in
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Feb 20, 2019 06:22
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Alaois posted:you are very sensitive to people being dogpiled, unless it's arivia, in which case you gleefully join in Show me. Show me where you claim I've done this, and if it is true guess what I'll do. I'll profusely apologize about it. Me and her have not always seen eye to eye, but nowhere in my memory have I ever shown such utter venom and vitriol towards her. Simple fact is you guys are really mad at Mearls, and that is perfectly understandable. Taking that anger out on someone who isn't as quick to tar and feather them however is really not the answer. MonsterEnvy doesn't enable anything, he doesn't push an agenda that is counter to the benefit of the abused. But people are all so eager to act like he's the one who did the abusing himself.
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Feb 20, 2019 06:28
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Arthil posted:I'm reading that post repeatedly and wondering whatever the gently caress you're on about with it. Guy goes the past few pages putting down Mearls but... it's somehow apologizing for it? The type of minimizing of abusers enablers like Mearls that MonsterEnvy was engaging in is the exact kind of minimizing that has allowed this ridiculous loving epidemic of abuse to exist, you realize that right. Every time we out a single abuser like Zak S, or loving Weinstein, or anyone and don't also hold their enablers accountable to some degree we help this poo poo continue. Abusers cannot function at even Zak's level without enablers. Even people like Mearls if you think the absolute best of him in this situation. So saying, "he should apologize, that's p much it," is wrong and needs to be confronted as enabling on its own.
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Feb 20, 2019 06:33
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Arthil posted:I'm reading that post repeatedly and wondering whatever the gently caress you're on about with it. Guy goes the past few pages putting down Mearls but... it's somehow apologizing for it? The person you are defending has spent literally years defending known abuse enabler Mike Mearls' every action, and then whining and crying and playing the victim every time they are called out on it. Or retreating into "banned topic, this is a banned topic" every time they said something about it. Or just disappearing for a couple weeks and coming back and doing the same thing and never, ever, acknowledging their poo poo beliefs. On this page, the person you are defending said "...victims. I don't know of or think Mearls has any" just like he has done since twenty loving fourteen when he was first told about what happened, by people adjacent to the people it loving happened to. People who had their loving lives ruined. You are defending someone who has been ignoring every single person telling them "this person is an abuser, this other person is enabling and supporting them" for five years. Abusers. Can't. Exist. Without. Enablers. And. Defenders. Don't stand up for people who defend abusers and enablers. When you do, you are part of the problem. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 06:36
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MonsterEnvy has an amazing, almost unique, ability to combine terrible opinions with a striking inability communicate, but Jesus Christ, the way some of y'all talk to him is legitimately uncomfortable to read. He is absolutely wrong here, but there are a couple of posters who distinctly come off like they are doing it because they enjoy it, not just because they are mad at him.
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Feb 20, 2019 06:37
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Darwinism posted:The type of minimizing of abusers enablers like Mearls that MonsterEnvy was engaging in is the exact kind of minimizing that has allowed this ridiculous loving epidemic of abuse to exist, you realize that right. Every time we out a single abuser like Zak S, or loving Weinstein, or anyone and don't also hold their enablers accountable to some degree we help this poo poo continue. Abusers cannot function at even Zak's level without enablers. Even people like Mearls if you think the absolute best of him in this situation. So saying, "he should apologize, that's p much it," is wrong and needs to be confronted as enabling on its own. Where does that end, though? Do I think they should have thought less of Mearls long before now? Yes I do. And do I think he should probably expect more than just an apology from Mearls? drat right I do. But I'm not gonna crucify him over that. There are people already trying to paint me as being an enabler for my defense of MonsterEnvy, which is absolutely loving ridiculous. From my view? The best way to change minds and encourage the community to grow, to be healthy and safe is to talk to people. Explain things in the best way you can, let them get all the facts. If in the end they've come to understand, that is great. If not... They're a lost cause. The way I see it, MonsterEnvy understands. He just doesn't say the things in the exact way people want. Saying all of that, before anyone tries to pick it apart. None of that applies to the abusers. The abusers get a brick to the face.
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Feb 20, 2019 06:41
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MonsterEnvy posted:It does not bother me. I also don't even know him very well, In fact I don't even really like Mearls and a lot of his design decisions. I think it's important in this kind of situation to remember that you can separate a person who made a thing you like from the parts of a game/book/painting/etc. that you like. It's possible to enjoy and be moved by something even if people have valid criticisms of it. The criticism of the thing is not a criticism of you (general you), necessarily, but it is possible to perpetuate harm by not considering the concerns that are raised. Of course, there's no perfectly moral outcome, ever, and you're allowed to take your own mental and physical well-being into account, too. It's ultimately up to you to decide what your limit is, but other people do have the right to disagree or share their feelings. If that all seems like an extremely stressful thing to deal with, that's fine. And also might be best to disengage or avoid contact at all.
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Feb 20, 2019 06:43
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So the new 'defend zak' has moved to reddit where 'Michelle' from his original defence blog post has suddenly created an account. I don't know Zak's writing style well enough to say if it's him (even with a photo it can still be him doing the writing) but the initial post was almost certainly done with him being involved. They seem mostly interested in defending him to the OSR types. https://www.reddit.com/user/KingJanx https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/aqtolx/the_stickied_zak_thread/egognmb/?context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/asgued/connie_from_i_hit_it_with_my_axe_re_zak_smith/
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Feb 20, 2019 06:44
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Dawgstar posted:Not to sidetrack too much (although it is still about awful people in gaming) but has there been any update on the Jeremy Hambly's alleged assault at GenCon? IIRC last update was he scammed a few tens of thousands for 'legal fees' and then moved on to this sort of thing: https://twitter.com/TheQuartering/status/1097697414205661184 So his usual schtick of starting poo poo and making threats then screaming for mommy and pretending people responding are the aggressors. Hambly is a trash human being. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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