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patonthebach posted:So that poll about 85% of them went Maduro out and a new election is fake news too eh? If you read the methodology you would conclude that yes, that poll was fake news. It’s was landline only and in only half the states in country. Polls with better methodology paint a much different picture of the situation and even those polls have some questionable framing. The only way to solve this are elections which the opposition have boycotted and refused to negotiate. If they were in such a popular position they wouldn’t be hesitating to hold elections.
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Feb 20, 2019 03:34
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The CNE heads themselves admitted they do not know if tampering was or wasn't done in the 2018 election, as well as the CEO of the voting machines used saying the counts were inflated by at least a million, combined with reports of empty voting polls it was blatantly bullshit. http://www.el-nacional.com/noticias/politica/rondon-cne-cumplio-medidas-para-realizar-elecciones-anc_196537 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-40804812
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Feb 20, 2019 03:37
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Presenting Nipples posted:The only way to solve this are elections which the opposition have boycotted and refused to negotiate. If they were in such a popular position they wouldn’t be hesitating to hold elections. This is patently false. What part of "the opposition cannot call for/organize/hold the elections because that's entirely up to the regime" is unclear? How is the opposition boycotting the presidential election if this entire issue is being fought precisely because the opposition wants to go to a presidential election, but the regime won't allow it?
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Feb 20, 2019 03:44
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Chuck Boone posted:This is patently false. What? The PSUV called elections forward in the past from negotiations and Maduro is willing to negotiate with Mexico as an intermediary. Why isn’t the opposition willing to negotiate?
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Feb 20, 2019 03:52
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Presenting Nipples posted:What? The PSUV called elections forward in the past from negotiations and Maduro is willing to negotiate with Mexico as an intermediary. Why isn’t the opposition willing to negotiate? I don't mean to be rude, but I have no idea what you're talking about. I think you're gravely mistaken. Do you have links?
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Feb 20, 2019 03:55
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Yeah I'm looking this up right now, all I can find is a statement of support only to be withdrawn days later with the foreign minister stating they're staying neutral when I look up stuff involving Maduro and Mexico.
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Feb 20, 2019 04:00
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Chuck Boone posted:I don't mean to be rude, but I have no idea what you're talking about. I think you're gravely mistaken. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.france24.com/en/20190202-venezuelas-maduro-calls-early-legislative-elections https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/venezuela-s-maduro-offers-negotiate-opposition-accuses-trump-ordering-his-n964406 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42984448
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Feb 20, 2019 04:07
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Presenting Nipples posted:https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.france24.com/en/20190202-venezuelas-maduro-calls-early-legislative-elections Ah. Yes, you're misinformed. 1. Maduro called for legislative elections. That means elections for the National Assembly, which is controlled by the opposition. What the opposition wants--and what Maduro won't allow--is presidential elections. 2. Maduro has held negotiations with the opposition a couple of times before, and they've always ended with the PSUV breaking all of its promises. North Korea does this too every once in a while for the same reason. It's a pretty easy tactic to take some heat off. The opposition's current position is pretty much what you stated earlier: the only way to solve this is to have a presidential election, so there's nothing to negotiate. 3. This is an article from 2018 and has nothing to do with the situation in the country today. We've covered why some of the opposition parties chose to not participate in the May 2018 election (short version: because it was rigged from the start and everyone knew it).
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Feb 20, 2019 04:17
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Presenting Nipples posted:https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.france24.com/en/20190202-venezuelas-maduro-calls-early-legislative-elections dude First link is him calling for Legislative elections for the chamber that the opposition controls that, as has been discussed in this thread within the past two pages, has been completely neutered by illegal judicial actions Second link explicitly says "He also dismissed calls for a snap presidential vote, saying his re-election last year was fair" third link is from before the election last year
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Feb 20, 2019 04:17
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Pharohman777 posted:The court didn't even allow the national assembly to function even after the opposition relented and conceded that the 3 members that were stripped of their seats were illegitimate. Yes, the only option for the opposition is to coordinate with it’s imperialist allies to starve Venezuela of money, cause way more death and starvation than Maduro ever did alone, until somehow the country accepts a president foisted by foreign powers no one voted for.
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Feb 20, 2019 04:33
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uninterrupted posted:Yes, the only option for the opposition is to coordinate with it’s imperialist allies to starve Venezuela of money, cause way more death and starvation than Maduro ever did alone, until somehow the country accepts a president foisted by foreign powers no one voted for. No, the opposition's only option was to 1) run a strong campaign in 2015 and win the National Assembly (only to have every law that it passed nullified by the regime), 2) organize a recall referendum in 2016 to have an election on whether to remove Maduro from power (only to have the regime put an end to this), 3) run a candidate in the 2018 presidential election (only to have the regime outlaw entire parties and arrest the most popular opposition figures/ban them from running and hold office), 4) declare the presidency abandoned and have an interim president take control of a transitional government pending presidential elections (only to have the regime ignore them and refuse to call the election). EDIT: There's a very clear pattern here of people filling in massive gaps in their knowledge with assumptions. This is always a good recipe to a poorly formed opinion. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 04:42
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Moridin920 posted:My point is that these illegal court packing arguments are all based on some vague opposition claims that don't have concrete evidence behind them. The doubly funny thing is in a thread two doors down the same people screaming about court packing in venezuela are arguing unironically that the next democrat president needs to pack the supreme court to prove it is illegitimate, which is literally the same thing the PSUV did
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Feb 20, 2019 05:13
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:The doubly funny thing is in a thread two doors down the same people screaming about court packing in venezuela are arguing unironically that the next democrat president needs to pack the supreme court to prove it is illegitimate, which is literally the same thing the PSUV did The Republicans actions in the US are seriously threatening the legitimacy of the US court system. The furious pace of court appointments while they had control of both houses after stonewalling democratic nominees culminating in their refusal to seat Garland to maintain a conservative majority on the supreme court seriously damaged the courts legitimacy. Packing the court would be the final blow to it. Why the heck would you use the awful situation in the US to provide cover to Maduro? We're an inch away from a constitutional crisis in the US, arguably are in one due to Trumps actions already. Are people like Discendo Vox and Chuck Boone calling for the Supreme Court to be packed? I haven't seen them post that and I think they would be seriously shortsighted if they supported the Democratic Party packing the court. [edit] P.S> Revolutions have been launched over who has the power of the purse. Trump is now claiming that power through an emergency decree to fund something which the legislature has explicitly said they would not fund. Now, a revolution won't happen and this will get litigated and re-litigated but it does demonstrate how hosed the situation in the US is right now. Munin fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 05:44
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There's been a baffling amount of stuff like boots riley retweeting venezuelanalysis saying something along the lines of "Why didn't people call Bush a tyrant when he turned down Cuban aid after Katrina" It was probably a better thought out point than I'm making it out to be but my immediate reaction was still IS THAT REALLY THE COMPARISON YOU WANT TO MAKE??? Der Waffle Mous fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 06:38
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It's actually an amazing comparison. Maduro is Venezuela's incredibly lovely establishment, I thought everyone knew this. People just call him out because he's not "our" lovely establishment. Maduro isn't really worse than what the US has going, and the only difference is US cleptocrats have way more cashdollars to work with, they being the ones that print them. This isn't the thread to argue about US internal poo poo, but if someone wants to point at idiot hypocrisy, those parallels are very good ones.
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Feb 20, 2019 06:51
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Truga posted:It's actually an amazing comparison. Maduro is Venezuela's incredibly lovely establishment, I thought everyone knew this. Yeah, no. Not at all.
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Feb 20, 2019 09:00
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sexpig by night posted:who itt is saying Maduro does nothing wrong again You. quote:we must follow the constitution, unless the constitution disagrees with me then those are fake judges
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Feb 20, 2019 10:05
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Moridin920 posted:How has he seized the supreme court? Supreme Courts don't work the same way in every country. Most countries don't have lifetime appointments for Supreme Court Justices, for one. So this comparison is quite bad. Really, most comparisons to the U.S. Supreme Court are going to be bad. It's really blatantly obvious that most references to the 'Supreme Court' in this thread are just reading a bunch of U.S. assumptions into it. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 10:08
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Truga posted:It's actually an amazing comparison. Maduro is Venezuela's incredibly lovely establishment, I thought everyone knew this. I really don't want to play the "What about america?!" game, but seriously? Did the average american under Bush lose 20 lbs of weight because of food shortages? Did 28 million americans flee the country? Did the US experience 1.000.000.000% inflation? Did medicine become so scarce that hospitals were running out of antibiotics? Did major cities become incapable of providing water and electricity for more than a few hours every day for several years? Did Bush imprison Al Gore and John Kerry, and ban democrats from running in elections? Did George Bush ever claim that he had traveled to the future, or that Ronald Reagan had taken the shape of a bird and spoken to him? I'm no loving expert here, but I feel pretty confident in saying that Maduro is worse for Venezuela than Bush was for America.
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Feb 20, 2019 10:20
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What the hell happened to this thread?
MullardEL34 fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 11:12
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MullardEL34 posted:What the hell happened to this thread? Tankies, mostly.
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Feb 20, 2019 13:05
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Mr. Sunshine posted:I'm no loving expert here, but I feel pretty confident in saying that Maduro is worse for Venezuela than Bush was for America. Truga posted:the only difference is US cleptocrats have way more cashdollars to work with, they being the ones that print them.
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Feb 20, 2019 13:17
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So the only useful difference between Bush and Maduro is that the people surrounding Bush had more money? Are you really, really sure it isn't the "destroying the economy and imprisoning your political opponents" part?
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Feb 20, 2019 13:50
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Bush administration literally did all of the above, yes. Or did the patriot act and 2007 recession never happen in your timeline? The only saving grace was he did it in the richest country in the world, so only about a third of the country is now malnourished, instead of literally everyone like in venezuela. We could also say that all that aid delivered to the venezuelan border is there because trump admin, not even caring for the starving millions in his own country while cutting social security budgets, somehow cares about the poor venezuelans. It's definitely not just a lovely pretense to get weapons and radicals into the country https://twitter.com/tmawelsh/status/1097880933703798784 wait, poo poo.
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Feb 20, 2019 14:00
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The recession happened because of financial fuckery by international banks, and was arguably caused by the repeal of Glass–Steagall in 1999. Bush & Co did nothing to help, but they did not cause it. Also, please provide me with examples of presidential candidates or other elected officials in the US prevented from running for office or outright imprisoned because of the patriot act. e: Also, how the gently caress are we still playing the goddamn "USA bad = Can't criticize Maduro" idiot game? The goddamn patriot act does not in any way justify the PSUV destroying democracy in Venezuela. Trump being a raging moron does not in any way justify Maduro starving the Venezuelan people. Yes, the US sucks rear end. We all know that. Mr. Sunshine fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 14:11
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Aight the court poo poo admittedly seems fucky.ChaseSP posted:Multiple higher ups in the PSUV having offshore bank accounts with millions isn't enough of a sign something is up? It's not evidence that Maduro is personally stealing billions away no. There is obviously corruption but what this thread is insinuating is that literally every penny and drop of oil is being stolen by Maduro personally. Importers gouging prices on food is a way bigger problem from the transactions I've seen floated in the news. Mr. Sunshine posted:e: Also, how the gently caress are we still playing the goddamn "USA bad = Can't criticize Maduro" idiot game? The goddamn patriot act does not in any way justify the PSUV destroying democracy in Venezuela. Trump being a raging moron does not in any way justify Maduro starving the Venezuelan people. Yes, the US sucks rear end. We all know that. At the same time, people say this then immediately resume talking about how really Maduro is a bad man for not accepting US The point also is that if the USA sucks rear end then why are we ignoring their involvement and pretending like Guaido exists in a vacuum? Truga posted:It's just a shitshow all around. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 14:40
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The recession was helped greatly by bush admin financial policies regarding private debt, that poo poo made a bunch of people default and get evicted real nice, right about 2006-7 IIRC. I can't dig right now but I remember some antiwar activists being targeted and some even jailed via patriot act. No president candidates, but presidents aren't the only political enemies. And about your edit, that's not what I'm saying at all. If you'd read my posts you'd see I'm just as critical of maduro as the rest. I however don't think pointing out US aid hypocrisy is defense of maduro in any way. I'm also having ever greater problems buying Guaido's story. What is he thinking by employing elliot loving abrams? Does he even have a plan at this point? The assembly has until friday to call an election, and apparently that's not going to happen so now fatass maduro has another propaganda win when he can start making GBS threads on missed deadline. It's just a shitshow all around.
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Feb 20, 2019 14:40
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Moridin920 posted:It's not evidence that Maduro is personally stealing billions away no. I think this is a by-product of people trying to simplify Venezuelan news for those that don't follow them as closely, and I'm guilty about it as well. It would be more accurate to say that Maduro is basically just a figurehead for a government party that's eaten away by corruption and has become increasingly militaristic the tighter money has gotten because they have to rely more and more on repression to keep hold of the reins. Maduro alone is not personally responsible for the Venezuelan crisis, of course – it's basically just shorthand. Truga posted:And about your edit, that's not what I'm saying at all. If you'd read my posts you'd see I'm just as critical of maduro as the rest. I however don't think pointing out US aid hypocrisy is defense of maduro in any way. I'm also having ever greater problems buying Guaido's story. What is he thinking by employing elliot loving abrams? Does he even have a plan at this point? The assembly has until friday to call an election, and apparently that's not going to happen so now fatass maduro has another propaganda win when he can start making GBS threads on missed deadline. It's been pointed out several times in the thread, we can't have elections without the electoral council, which is 100% co-opted by the Maduro government. Let's say Guaido just stood up and called for presidential elections today and people went to vote – which of course the government wouldn't allow – Maduro would just ignore the results and stay in the presidential palace. The opposition has laid out a route to follow, which starts with Maduro stepping down, putting together a transition government, renewing the electoral council, and then holding elections. However, it's a moot point until the Maduro government decides to, you know, stop being a dictatorship.
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Feb 20, 2019 14:53
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Labradoodle posted:The opposition has laid out a route to follow, which starts with Maduro stepping down, putting together a transition government, renewing the electoral council, and then holding elections. However, it's a moot point until the Maduro government decides to, you know, stop being a dictatorship. Maduro is such a dictator that he allows the opposition to rally with giant jumbotrons and loudspeakers in urban areas. Despot Maduro even blackbagged and executed the coup leader backed by foreign powers-- oh wait, that didn't happen because guaido is still allowed to crisscross the country desperately attempting to drum up support for his coup.
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Feb 20, 2019 15:00
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The UNHCR has released updated migration figures, current as of January: https://twitter.com/ACNURamericas/status/1098022683281903616 The total number of Venezuelan migrants/refugees across the world is 3.4 million, with 2.7 million located in Latin America and the Caribbean. That's just slightly over 10% of the country's population.
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Feb 20, 2019 15:04
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Labradoodle posted:The opposition has laid out a route to follow, which starts with Maduro stepping down, putting together a transition government, renewing the electoral council, and then holding elections. However, it's a moot point until the Maduro government decides to, you know, stop being a dictatorship. Yeah, that's what I'm asking. Maduro obviously isn't stepping down, so what's the plan now? Just wait until everyone's fled the country? With the sanctions that hit a couple weeks ago, situation for most people is about to get worse and a worse situation sucks a lot more when it's already terrible. It's a prime situation for fash bullshit to start going down on both sides. e: Chuck Boone posted:That's just slightly over 10% of the country's population. Truga fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 15:05
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It likely won't which is the real depressing part. Wonder how long until the oil fields are effectively shut down at this point considering how there's been zero push for funding or trying to educate workers.
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Feb 20, 2019 15:22
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Maduro is such a dictator that he allows the opposition to rally with giant jumbotrons and loudspeakers in urban areas. His people have taken over every branch of government, there are hundreds of political prisoners living in hellish conditions (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46864864), hundreds of protesters have been killed, and the list goes on. I'm sorry that's not enough mustache-twirling assholery for you, but denying the Maduro government is a dictatorship is just plain ignorant. Truga posted:Yeah, that's what I'm asking. Maduro obviously isn't stepping down, so what's the plan now? Just wait until everyone's fled the country? With the sanctions that hit a couple weeks ago, situation for most people is about to get worse and a worse situation sucks a lot more when it's already terrible. It's a prime situation for fash bullshit to start going down on both sides. I think the plan all along was to put pressure on the military high command to publicly stop supporting Maduro, which would lead to him and other high-ranking members of the cabinet to pack up their bags and leave for someplace they could enjoy their money. The problem is, the military is up to their heads in corruption and drug trafficking as well, so it's in their best interest to hold on until the last second. PDVSA sanctions were supposed to be the nail on the coffin, as in the military realizing "Oh poo poo, there's not going to be any more money coming in", but they hadn't materialized before because they're also going to hurt people on the ground. I think the opposition were too optimistic about a quick transition, though.
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Feb 20, 2019 15:24
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This guy's got a good thread on what stuff costs in Venezuela based on the average black market exchange rate, which today is around BsS. 2,900/USD. That puts the minimum monthly salary about about $6. The thread's in Spanish, but in every tweet he's doing the same thing: showing how much the item costs in BsS, showing how much that is in USD, and showing what percentage of a month's earning that item represents. https://twitter.com/Victor2612/status/1097559397641961474
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Feb 20, 2019 15:27
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MullardEL34 posted:What the hell happened to this thread? it stopped being a cirlcejerk
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Feb 20, 2019 15:29
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I've asked, but not really gotten any answers - those of you who oppose Guaido and the National Assembly because they have the support of the US, can you give me examples of any Venezuelan opposition movement that would not have the implicit or explicit support of the US? Yeah, Trump appointing Abrams as a liaison/contact/expert whatever it is loving sucks, but that is completely out of the hands of the Venezuelan opposition! What do you want them to do? "We've been trying to get Maduro to step down for years but the US president just appointed some rear end in a top hat to some diplomatic position so I guess we'll just pack it up and go home?"
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Feb 20, 2019 15:35
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Labradoodle posted:His people have taken over every branch of government, there are hundreds of political prisoners living in hellish conditions (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46864864), hundreds of protesters have been killed, and the list goes on. I'm sorry that's not enough mustache-twirling assholery for you, but denying the Maduro government is a dictatorship is just plain ignorant. There are hundreds of political prisoners in the US, as well as police operations to assassinate Black Lives Matter activists who color outside the lines and criticize the bought and paid for national movement for black lives. The vast majority of US lives under single party rule. There is no choice in California for Republicans, there is no choice in Oklahoma for Democrats. At the very worst, Venezuela qualifies as an illiberal democracy under emergency rule- the list of characteristics that you've rattled off hardly qualifies it as a "dictatorship" Mr. Sunshine posted:Yeah, Trump appointing Abrams as a liaison/contact/expert whatever it is loving sucks, but that is completely out of the hands of the Venezuelan opposition! What do you want them to do? "We've been trying to get Maduro to step down for years but the US president just appointed some rear end in a top hat to some diplomatic position so I guess we'll just pack it up and go home?" No, it really isn't because Guaido intiatiated contact with the US and has literally hired lobbyists in DC. He is literally a DC swamp creature who got his start in politics because Maduro cancelled his favorite TV shows.
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Feb 20, 2019 15:39
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US politics aren't relevant to this thread and it's unlikely the people here don't think it's loving awful either so I'm not sure what your goal is besides trying to muddy the waters. Also the people working for him also worked for the Maduro government . Stop posting poo poo you didn't even read besides the title.
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Feb 20, 2019 16:04
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Truga posted:Bush administration literally did all of the above, yes. Or did the patriot act and 2007 recession never happen in your timeline? The only saving grace was he did it in the richest country in the world, so only about a third of the country is now malnourished, instead of literally everyone like in venezuela. You could just compare Venezuela to other Latin American countries, most of which have comparable (probably lower) wealth and haven't had millions of people flee.
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Feb 20, 2019 16:11
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:The vast majority of US lives under single party rule. There is no choice in California for Republicans, there is no choice in Oklahoma for Democrats. This is just trolling, come on. Nobody is this loving stupid. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 16:12
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