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*nobody understands your intended message* "heh, can't believe that everyone else sucks so bad at communication, smh"
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Feb 16, 2019 21:01
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Nilbop posted:I think you might just be a bit thick. nah you're just consistently bad at constructing an argument
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Feb 16, 2019 21:03
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Your second post in the conversation was about how you imagined that Pak hated the idea of having to include Shang Chi and worse, have Shang Chi wielding nunchuks, so while you did make it clear your overall point was broader than the work of Greg Pak, you also seemed to be including Greg Pak's work as an example of what you had a problem with. Given that, it kind of makes sense that people would argue against the concrete example of something you have cited as a problem rather than [handwaves sort of generally towards decades of comics] whatever. Diet Poison posted:And is there even such a thing as a First Nations super whose powers aren't mystical in any respect? Even the brand new girl Snowguard's powered by some Inuit deity or something. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Feb 16, 2019 |
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Feb 16, 2019 21:06
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Then to be clear, my problem is with lazy, outdated, stereotypical and offensive depictions of Marvel heroes outside of the United States and not with Greg Pak, who’s new book I used as a springboard to talk about the issue. His creations and the creations of non-comics writers included in that book afe a reaction to this very problem, which still exists in current high-profile books such as the recent Avengers issue.
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Feb 16, 2019 21:55
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Nilbop posted:
Next thing you'll be telling me that we shouldn't have scenes where Shamrock and Captain Britian have a stare down while the narration talks about their ancient enmity or something.
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Feb 16, 2019 22:42
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when's the last time Shamrock's shown up in a Marvel comic outside of being offhandedly mentioned in Domino a few months ago, anyway
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Feb 16, 2019 23:23
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Alaois posted:when's the last time Shamrock's shown up in a Marvel comic outside of being offhandedly mentioned in Domino a few months ago, anyway Because I was curious, apparently Shamrock retired from superheroing and had opened up an (Irish-themed) bar in Fearless Defenders. Then she was an agent of SHIELD in Marvel Knights: Hulk.
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Feb 16, 2019 23:30
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Edge & Christian posted:I guess it depends a lot on what you consider 'mystical in some respect', Dani Moonstar/Mirage's powers are kind of borderline and she's definitely mystical in that she has a connection to the Valkyries. Both Proudstar brothers (Thunderbird and Warpath) don't have great codenames but their powers are pretty much 100% "big and strong and tough". Wyatt Wingfoot is just an athletic dude, though there's some level of mysticism wrapped up around his family/tribe. Forge had the whole Adversary storyline that got pretty mystical under Claremont but is generally just a Real Smart Sometimes Real Crazy dude. Comanche is black, but also not mystical. There's no excuse for me forgetting about Warpath and Forge, except I guess that Forge really isn't used much these days.
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Feb 16, 2019 23:30
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Forge was in X-Men Red and Warpath was in Weapon X.
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Feb 17, 2019 00:57
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Skwirl posted:Warpath was in Weapon X. and is now back in X-Force
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Feb 17, 2019 00:58
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Forge solved xmen vs inhumans about 9 issues too late
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Feb 17, 2019 01:00
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site posted:Forge solved xmen vs inhumans about 9 issues too late which is extremely in character for forge
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Feb 17, 2019 01:03
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Didn't this same guy have the same argument about Coates' The Crew?
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Feb 17, 2019 01:24
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Roth posted:Didn't this same guy have the same argument about Coates' The Crew? Me? No, my problem within The Crew was it was slamming a bunch of unrelated heroes together based upon a sometimes strong, sometimes tenuous link to Harlem to coincide with Luke Cage season 1. That wasn’t a conversation about non-American representation of heroes.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:32
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The Crew came out a full year after Luke Cage season one.
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Feb 17, 2019 02:32
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There was a vol. 2 Crew book? The first volumn is not good. This was shocking since Priest wrote it.
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Feb 17, 2019 02:40
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Diet Poison posted:And is there even such a thing as a First Nations super whose powers aren't mystical in any respect? Even the brand new girl Snowguard's powered by some Inuit deity or something. Echo, Maya Lopez, is Cheyenne on her dad's side and has the same not-powers powers as Taskmaster, if that counts.
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Feb 17, 2019 02:47
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Alaois posted:yeah someone should ask that Greg Pak guy how he feels about Marvel's Asian superheroes Nilbop posted:Probably something to the tune of "I sure as poo poo would love to get away from "Master of Kung Fu." Ah poo poo, Marvel want him on the cover again? With nunchucks too? Well, at least they don't want Sunfire in this one." Nilbop posted:Everyone knows that I used Pak's new book as a springboard to talk about representation of non-American heroes in general and not Pak specifically, right? I feel like I've been clear about this, even going so far as to cite Pak's creation of non-stereotyped heroes as a reaction to this problem. uh huh
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Feb 17, 2019 03:32
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Edge & Christian posted:Your second post in the conversation was about how you imagined that Pak hated the idea of having to include Shang Chi and worse, have Shang Chi wielding nunchuks, so while you did make it clear your overall point was broader than the work of Greg Pak, you also seemed to be including Greg Pak's work as an example of what you had a problem with. I mean, Forge's whole thing is that he's this Destined Shaman who has a mutant power to invent things, which takes him to the big city to work for the government and away from his magical Native American destiny. People definitely focused on that less after Claremont stopped writing the character (probably for the best), but it was very central to his whole character concept that he was ~torn between two worlds~. Like, he actually knows magic, and has that whole thing where he has PTSD about using his shamanic knowledge to summon demons in Vietnam. I would definitely consider Dani's valkyrie thing a subverted stereotype, though. Dani in general is maybe an okay example of a less stereotypical Native American character - her mutant power is explicitly non-mystical psionics, and when she does get infused with magical power, it's from Norse mythology.
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Feb 17, 2019 03:54
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cant cook creole bream posted:Now name one German hero. At the risk of stating the obvious, Nazis don't count. Helmut Zemo 
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Feb 17, 2019 08:18
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I think another element of international heroes is the problem of writers not knowing what they're talking about. Shamrock, Banshee's leprechaun castle, the original Big Hero Six, and even like, B'Wana Beast, do not strike one as the products of an intimate and thorough period of research and cultural immersion. Ms. Marvel, again, is a great counter-example of how things can go right, because even if G. Willow Wilson isn't Pakistani, the really sharp way that religious faith is weaved throughout as just one of several important parts of Kamala's life rings with authenticity because that's her life too, and every other detail, even if it's not autobiographical, has a really rich depth of detail and subtlety that you don't see in, like, Arabian Knight. She's done her homework and she very obviously cares deeply about this character. There was a twitter thread awhile back where Saladin Ahmed acknowledged that he was never a teenaged girl, and solicited his readers for advic e on what usually felt off or false to them in depictions of teenaged girls. He listened and took his cues from the group he was writing about, instead of just doing the equivalent of "uh, let's see, Shamrocks, green, IRA, luck power, ok done." Grek Pak's experience is as a mixed-race Asian American man. I'm not Asian-American, so what do I know, but the Hulk arc with that crew felt totally real and lived-in, even if in a sense he was retroactively making up a bunch of stuff about characters with no existing backgrounds together being good friends. Because he wrote good friendships that were rooted in the commonalities and differences that make up actually existing friendships. Ditto, if TNC's Crew team felt arbitrary to some (it didn't to me) it still worked on the page because TNC was using these characters in a clever way to tell a story about a world he has a good grasp on. He wasn't telling stories through a filter of cultural stereotypes and short-hands. This is why I don't think the answer is "less Shang-Chi" or "no Storm in Harlem" but to continue a) hiring good writers, giving them a reason to stay, and letting them tell stories they want to tell, and b) hiring more writers who aren't middle-aged straight white guys, writers who have a different experiential base and can simply tell stories somebody like Mark Waid wouldn't be able to.
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Feb 17, 2019 17:57
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I normally love TNC's work, but The Crew did feel strange. Mostly it was a result of decompression and focusing each issue on the introduction of a different character, then getting cancelled and having to wrap up the whole overarching plot in one final issue, immediately after they'd introduced the team. I really, really liked the flashback stuff - that was strong. Left-wing revolutionaries who find out they're being funded by Hydra, and the overarching stuff with gentrification and law enforcement robots that are secretly being pushed by Hydra subsidiaries - all really cool. It was just the pacing of the whole thing, the constant shifts in perspective that sometimes felt like they were spinning wheels rather than moving the story. Manifold felt a little out of place. During his introduction he gives a whole speech about how he teleported to Harlem from Australia, and he's been working there as a vigilante because fighting for black liberation reminds him of fighting for mutant liberation. It's plausible, and it makes sense, but it's kind of rushed. Storm in Harlem makes perfect sense (if Wolverine can routinely be revealed to hang out in other locales where he runs hustles and is well-known by the locals, so can Storm), but she's not very well written. One of her lines is like, "like everyone else I had ever loved, Ezra Keith was dead". Like, really? Is that true, or just a hokey, nonsense cliche? Is it a musing on how the X-Men die and come back all the time, just clumsily delivered? And after her debut issue, almost all her dialogue is about her breakup with T'challa. She's reduced to more or less a prop for his anxieties about divorce.
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Feb 17, 2019 18:37
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Also, the thing where people in Harlem call Storm "Blue" is a clear riff on people in Madripoor calling Logan "Patch", so Coates knew what he was doing there. It's just that Logan in Madripoor got to have cool adventures with ninjas, whereas Storm in Harlem mostly got to trail around after Black Panther, Luke Cage and Misty Knight being doleful.
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Feb 17, 2019 18:45
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Spider-Man was so popular that the Mexican publisher got special permission from Marvel in the 70s to publish their own stories to fulfill demand and eventually they started going in their own direction entirely with the continuity. Kind of sad in a way the artist José Luis Durán is essentially unknown as a classic Spider-Man creator. Also, these comics might not be preserved or collected anywhere. I would kill to read alternate continuity Mexican Spider-Man. (Translated) quote:Mexican Spider-Man was an unprecedented event in the comic book publishing industry, as it did not adhere to Marvel's narrative standards, creating even its own villains and timeline. For example, although Gwen Stacy had died in the official continuity, in Mexico the wedding between Gwen and Peter Parker was published.  https://codigoespagueti.com/noticias/comics-hombre-arana-hechos-mexico/ Edit: on the other hand, https://twitter.com/MrJedabak/status/1097135788809170944?s=20 Lobok fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Feb 17, 2019 |
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Feb 17, 2019 20:02
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Android Blues posted:I normally love TNC's work, but The Crew did feel strange. Mostly it was a result of decompression and focusing each issue on the introduction of a different character, then getting cancelled and having to wrap up the whole overarching plot in one final issue, immediately after they'd introduced the team. Forge should have been alive and kicking at that time, and her ex-husband is in the same goddamned book. Plus if you aren't limiting it to romantic love Kitty Pryde was running her own X-Men team then, Gambit might count in that category too (I've read very little X-books between X-tinction Agenda and Morrison's New X-Men, did anyone do anything with their friendship post Storm being re-aged?).
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Feb 17, 2019 20:15
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Yeah, I can't imagine it refers to anything other than all the X-Men having died at one point or another, but I'm not sure that's even true. Like, has Kitty ever died as more than a quick fakeout?
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Feb 17, 2019 21:15
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Also, I feel like Storm and Gambit's friendship has been heavily de-emphasised by most writers, except in the brief periods where Claremont returned in the 90s and 2000s. I'm pretty sure I remember reading some 2000s-era Claremont X-Men where Storm and Gambit are pals.
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Feb 17, 2019 21:17
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Android Blues posted:Yeah, I can't imagine it refers to anything other than all the X-Men having died at one point or another, but I'm not sure that's even true. Like, has Kitty ever died as more than a quick fakeout? Whedon shot her into space inside a giant adamantium bullet, but right after that is another era where I have huge gaps in my X-knowledge, so I don't know how long it was before she came back.
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Feb 17, 2019 21:37
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I wanna say 3 years or so.
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Feb 17, 2019 21:39
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Android Blues posted:Also, I feel like Storm and Gambit's friendship has been heavily de-emphasised by most writers, except in the brief periods where Claremont returned in the 90s and 2000s. I'm pretty sure I remember reading some 2000s-era Claremont X-Men where Storm and Gambit are pals. Storm throwing him a belated bachelor party would be a great one and done for Mr. and Mrs. X.
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Feb 17, 2019 21:40
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This is a really good interview, about an important story Marvel are telling. https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/exploring-mental-illness-with-unstoppable-wasp Also, Unstoppable Wasp is a delightful series - Whitley & Gurihiru are a great team. (And, previously, Whitley & Charretier.)
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Feb 20, 2019 16:57
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Today the Return of Wolverine ends, while Hulkverines and Wolverine and the Infinity Watch begins. And he’s apready back in Uncanny, I think? I’m curious to hear about what’s going on with Logan, but not curious enough to buy any of those books. EDIT: Nevermind. It’s all stupid. Open Marriage Night fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 17:03
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Metalshark posted:This is a really good interview, about an important story Marvel are telling. Yeah, I missed out on Unstoppable Wasp when it first came out, and I'm glad I was able to get on board with it when it came back. In other comics news, I'm enjoying FNSM, although I'm slightly worried that it's going to have the same problem that Zdarsky's Spec run did of starting advertised as a street-level book and bleeding over into more fantastical - I mean, I loved Zdarsky's run, don't get me wrong, but I feel a little put out anyway. But we get the Aunt May reveal in issue 5, so I'm hoping they can striek a balance.
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Feb 20, 2019 18:45
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Metalshark posted:This is a really good interview, about an important story Marvel are telling. That issue was real good too. It's pretty funny the contrast between Jessica Jones' current Purple Daughter storyline and what Newspaper Spider-Man is doing with Kilgrave. I'm also not thrilled with Thompson going back to the Purple Man well, but I'm trusting Thompson knows what she's doing.
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Feb 20, 2019 18:46
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 https://www.newsarama.com/43996-ac-comics-may-2019-solicitations.html
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Feb 20, 2019 22:01
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How has Skottie Young's Deadpool been thus far? Keep in mind I loved Duggan, Kelly and Nicieza's runs, but think Daniel Way is straight doodoo.
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Feb 21, 2019 02:04
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El Gallinero Gros posted:How has Skottie Young's Deadpool been thus far? Keep in mind I loved Duggan, Kelly and Nicieza's runs, but think Daniel Way is straight doodoo. It’s been fine. Duggan left him in a tough spot for building on his run though with the mind wipe of course. Young is doing good in building his own thing though.
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Feb 21, 2019 02:10
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I've been reading since Cable & Deadpool, and it's probably second worst to Way IMO (in terms of the adjective-less Deadpool comics). He doesn't get the humor or the character, and everything has been of so little consequence. Almost every issues is a baddie-of-the-month type, and there's no overall plot like the last series. I love Young, I Hate Fairyland was great and I'm really digging Middlewest, but I feel like he's an awful fit for Deadpool.
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Feb 21, 2019 04:33
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Woof, wasp was a tough read this week
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Feb 21, 2019 18:13
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| # ? May 20, 2024 17:39 |
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Our own Vulpes Vulpes got an ongoing! https://twitter.com/ComicBook/status/1098617342034997248
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Feb 21, 2019 18:53
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