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Pharohman777 posted:Oh, so you mean the famine that started before the current harsh sanctions? thankfully, in order to alleviate it, we have decided to redouble our sanctions. because America cares, about the people suffering, in Venezuela. this is a thing people seem to actually believe!
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Feb 20, 2019 21:22
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YMB, "we" is the US, not the Venezuelan opposition. Do you not understand that they are different people with different goals and motivations?
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Feb 20, 2019 21:28
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Pharohman777 posted:Oh, so you mean the famine that started before the current harsh sanctions? so the us took a food crisis and made it worse again, why are you guys saying it's cool that the opposition is asking the US for help?
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Feb 20, 2019 21:31
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i like how you guys keep trying to pretend the opposition is totally distinct from america despite numerous examples of the opposition working hand in hand with the us government. guess you just gotta plug your ears up if you want to pretend the opposition is not a us-backed coup
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Feb 20, 2019 21:33
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The difference is that you are unwilling to acknowledge a distinction between the Venezuelan opposition's agency or motives and the United States. The Venezuelan opposition is trying to leverage foreign countries to restore the country, and because the United States has to be a part of that process, because it's the only place Venezuelan oil can really be refined. You conflate the two, and then shift the scope of commentary entirely to the United States, and then present the entire topic in terms of a dichotomy framed by the involvement of the United States.You've been really open about this!Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:is this the thread where we say the Iraq War was a good idea because I want in on that Moridin920 posted:Oh gently caress off like they aren't intertwined as hell. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:sometimes you are presented a choice between two terrible options. and at that point, it is your unenviable obligation to try to pick the less awful of the two. i certainly can't fault Guiado for picking up the bloody sledgehammer of friendship. it's certainly the best option for him, personally, to try to advance his personal standing. he might even believe he can rein in the worst of his new friends' excesses! Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:there is the side that says a US-backed intervention is worth supporting, and the side that says it is not. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:"we have to destroy the village to save the village" Other content, other materials, other people, don't get discussed. In the pursuit of this frame, sources get posted without citation or critical engagement, including straight up state propaganda presented as independent journalism. Lies, lies that are really obvious, get repeated over and over again. Everyone else winds up spending time and effort trying to disentangle and refute this tide of shitposting. Thus, by a constant shifting of rhetorical focus, a thread about the details of the situation in Venezuela becomes yet another thread about the United States.
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Feb 20, 2019 21:36
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Discendo Vox posted:The difference is that you are unwilling to acknowledge a distinction between the Venezuelan opposition's agency or motives and the United States. thats correct, because I don't believe there is any such distinction. hope that helps you understand things better
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Feb 20, 2019 21:43
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I thought India was also refining Venezuelan oil, hence the dismissal of India's support for Maduro
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Feb 20, 2019 21:43
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Condiv posted:thats correct, because I don't believe there is any such distinction. hope that helps you understand things better Cease to Hope posted:there's a lot of american leftists who can't keep their US chauvinism in their pants and don't understand that not every conversation everywhere is about the speaker's supposed affiliation in US politics.
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Feb 20, 2019 21:47
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Cease to Hope posted:YMB, "we" is the US, not the Venezuelan opposition. Do you not understand that they are different people with different goals and motivations? wholly comprehended. the thing is, the goals and motivations of the currently existing Venezuelan opposition include a substantial "under no circumstances are you to respond publicly or privately to anything your buddies in Washington do with less than full-throated support" clause. i can entirely understand why someone responds "hell yeah" when the US issues invitations to Who Wants To Be The Next Augusto Pinochet contest. the opportunity to achieve tremendous personal wealth and power and/or get rid of people you hate, at the low low cost of a bunch of peasants you never cared about anyway? real alluring! Guaido's people have their own goals, independent of America's. some of them might even not be exclusively in it for their own enrichment. but both they and we know that in order to achieve those goals, they have to sit down, shut up, and hand out sledgehammers like good little boys and girls when their friendly Uncle Abrams says so. because it is probatable to describe the things that will happen to them if they say "that is wrong."
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Feb 20, 2019 21:48
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"supposed" affiliation  the guy who ran to the trump administration and is hiring DC lobbyists has some very obvious affiliation with washington but I guess this is an example of you telling yourself what you need to to pretend you're not supporting a trump-backed coup 
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Feb 20, 2019 21:49
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Yes, forums poster condiv, it's totally the US's fault Maduro and the PSUV enacted a bunch of policies that caused a famine. In fact if you look closely enough, you can see the faintly glowing puppet strings stretching from Maduro to the coffin of John Mccain.
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Feb 20, 2019 21:54
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AGGGGH BEES posted:Yes, forums poster condiv, it's totally the US's fault Maduro and the PSUV enacted a bunch of policies that caused a famine. In fact if you look closely enough, you can see the faintly glowing puppet strings stretching from Maduro to the coffin of John Mccain. it's totally the US's fault that it dumped a ton of sanctions on a country suffering from a famine. this isn't hard aggh bees
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Feb 20, 2019 21:56
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This whole Venezuela thing is my favorite metal gear solid chapter.
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Feb 20, 2019 21:56
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Condiv posted:thats correct, because I don't believe there is any such distinction. hope that helps you understand things better there are distinctions. there are no doubt a great number of things that the Guaido wishes to do that his backers in the United States do not give a solitary gently caress about, and will gladly let him have free reign in. Noriega's drug trafficking, for example, or Rios Montt's deep and abiding evangelical faith. we're perfectly fine with our colonial adminstrators having hobbies to keep them busy. as long as they never, under any circumstances, break with us on anything we consider important. ~guess what Elliot Abrams' stance on any left-wing organization operating in a subject country is~
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Feb 20, 2019 21:57
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What's apparently hard is for you, and many other people, to read the OP.
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Feb 20, 2019 21:57
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India is trying to take the equivalent place in the market, but my impression so far is its capacity and the relative cost ratio are unlikely to function beyond the short term - they can refine Venezuelan oil, but it's not really profitable to do so (even back in 2018 Venezuela was trying to sell India oil at a 30% discount and via their short-lived cryptocurrency). The other factor is that one of the two major Indian importers is a conglomerate shell principally controlled by the Russian government.
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 21:58
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AGGGGH BEES posted:What's apparently hard is for you, and many other people, to read the OP. the op doesn't change the fact that the US implemented sanctions on a country that's suffering from a famine aggh bees dunno why you think it's a good thing the opposition is in bed with the people starving venezuelans for political gain
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Feb 20, 2019 22:01
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Discendo Vox posted:The difference is that you are unwilling to acknowledge a distinction between the French opposition's agency or motives and the Nazis. Petain is trying to leverage foreign countries to restore the country, and because Germany has to be a part of that process, because it's they are occupying the country and all of it's natural resources. You conflate the two, and then shift the scope of commentary entirely to the Nazis, and then present the entire topic in terms of a dichotomy framed by the involvement of Nazi Germany.You've been really open about this! it doesn't matter if collaborators are motivated by the best of intentions, the very nature of collaboration makes them tools of their masters. i did this not to godwin it up, but because you are trying to put rhetorical distance between two inextricably linked parties. guaido has no electoral mandate, and only one air force general without aircraft for an army. all that he has is the diplomatic recognition of the us and europe, and billions in money stolen from the PSUV (generously held in safekeeping for him by the us). guaido has literally 0 leverage to negotiate with, as all of his cards are currently held by the us. how could he have distinct aims from the us at this point, and more to the point how could he possibly oppose the us on anything? he is far more of a puppet than Petain ever was.
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Feb 20, 2019 22:04
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Condiv posted:the op doesn't change the fact that the US implemented sanctions on a country that suffering from a famine aggh bees Plz explain how current US sanctions are related to the famine.
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Feb 20, 2019 22:06
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GoluboiOgon posted:it doesn't matter if collaborators are motivated by the best of intentions, the very nature of collaboration makes them tools of their masters. i did this not to godwin it up, but because you are trying to put rhetorical distance between two inextricably linked parties. guaido has no electoral mandate, and only one air force general without aircraft for an army. all that he has is the diplomatic recognition of the us and europe, and billions in money stolen from the PSUV (generously held in safekeeping for him by the us). guaido has literally 0 leverage to negotiate with, as all of his cards are currently held by the us. how could he have distinct aims from the us at this point, and more to the point how could he possibly oppose the us on anything? he is far more of a puppet than Petain ever was. Read the OP. Guaidó existed before he entered your field of vision, as did the rest of Venezuelan domestic political history. We've been over the legal basis of the national assembly so many, many times now.
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Feb 20, 2019 22:06
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GoluboiOgon posted:it doesn't matter if collaborators are motivated by the best of intentions, the very nature of collaboration makes them tools of their masters. i did this not to godwin it up, but because you are trying to put rhetorical distance between two inextricably linked parties. guaido has no electoral mandate, and only one air force general without aircraft for an army. all that he has is the diplomatic recognition of the us and europe, and billions in money stolen from the PSUV (generously held in safekeeping for him by the us). guaido has literally 0 leverage to negotiate with, as all of his cards are currently held by the us. how could he have distinct aims from the us at this point, and more to the point how could he possibly oppose the us on anything? he is far more of a puppet than Petain ever was. you list all of these assets and not the popular support of those in Venezuela who are opposed to Maduro. Do you think such people don't exist or don't matter?
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Feb 20, 2019 22:07
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Cease to Hope posted:you list all of these assets and not the popular support of those in Venezuela who are opposed to Maduro. Do you think such people don't exist or don't matter? Yes. They don't matter to him.
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Feb 20, 2019 22:08
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Shaocaholica posted:Plz explain how current US sanctions are related to the famine. you mean other than exacerbating it? or are you asking me to explain to you that sanctions tend to go hand in hand with food shortages just on their own
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Feb 20, 2019 22:10
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Randarkman posted:Yes. They don't matter to him. I'm not interested in people characterizing the arguments of their opponents as cynically as possible, thanks. There's enough of that white noise already.
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Feb 20, 2019 22:10
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 Hmm I wonder why people would be cagey about guaido being proudly sponsored by USAID and the state department
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Feb 20, 2019 22:10
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Cease to Hope posted:you list all of these assets and not the popular support of those in Venezuela who are opposed to Maduro. Do you think such people don't exist or don't matter? he doesn't seem to have that much popular support tbh. there are clearly many people who oppose maduro, (judging from those huge rallies), but many fewer people show up to pro-guaido rallies than anti-maduro ones. the opposition seems very fragmented, which only weakens guaido's hand to negotiate (as he could be replaced with any one of his rivals almost interchangeably).
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Feb 20, 2019 22:11
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Yup, it's Russia Today. Note the lack of attribution in both CLB's post and in the original image. Both are intentional.
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Feb 20, 2019 22:11
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Discendo Vox posted:Read the OP. Guaidó existed before he entered your field of vision, as did the rest of Venezuelan domestic political history. if you have any evidence suggesting that Guaido or his people have either the capability or inclination to tell their backers in DC to gently caress off, he has no interest in being a Pinochet for the 21st century, that would be very reassuring. because for some reason, every time I've asked for that, all I've gotten is people getting upset about how dare I bring up those backers' resumes.
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Feb 20, 2019 22:11
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Condiv posted:you mean other than exacerbating it? or are you asking me to explain to you that sanctions tend to go hand in hand with food shortages just on their own Just looking at Venezuela exacerbates the famine so that's a pretty weak connection.
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Feb 20, 2019 22:15
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Moridin920 posted:But meanwhile Israel does Palestine worse than this and it is antisemitism if anyone says peep about it. Amnesty International is actually pretty famous for making GBS threads on Israel. Give their Cast Lead report areas sometime.
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Feb 20, 2019 22:16
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Discendo Vox posted:Yup, it's Russia Today. Note the lack of attribution in both CLB's post and in the original image. Both are intentional. here's a non RT story about the US trying to coup venezuela: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/21/usa.venezuela of course, I don't fault you for dismissing the propaganda arm of russia out of hand. i mean, that's what I do wrt the us-backed opposition in venezuela. some people are just not trustworthy because of who they are affiliated with
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Feb 20, 2019 22:16
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Shaocaholica posted:Just looking at Venezuela exacerbates the famine so that's a pretty weak connection. if that's the case then sanctions, which have caused food shortages on their own in the past, are certainly making the situation way worse. hope that helps your understanding of things
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Feb 20, 2019 22:18
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Discendo Vox posted:Yup, it's Russia Today. Note the lack of attribution in both CLB's post and in the original image. Both are intentional. you constantly nitpick about sources because you are completely unwilling to consider that you might be wrong. therefore, anything that might force you to change your opinion of the world must be russian/venezuelan/qatari propaganda from evil state-run media. speaking of shifting rhetorical focuses, you constantly do this as a way to not engage with any of the information in a post. a healthy distrust of media and concern with sourcing is good, but you take it too far as a way of burying your own head in the sand. do you have any actual information that that infographic is wrong? or are you just calling facts you don't want to admit russian propaganda?
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Feb 20, 2019 22:18
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I mean Russia Today is literally a state propaganda agency. As I have discussed before, a major part of the modus of propaganda is to selectively present true information to create a false impression. There's nothing to discuss with its content, it's just more frame-shifting whataboutism. Here's a good rule of thumb- if I'm having to look up where you're getting your information from because it's not being listed, and it turns out it's a propaganda agency, I'm probably not going to think you're arguing in good faith anymore. This keeps happening. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 22:21
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Discendo Vox posted:I mean Russia Today is literally a state propaganda agency. As I have discussed before, a major part of the modus of propaganda is to selectively present true information to create a false impression. There's nothing to discuss with its content, it's just more frame-shifting whataboutism. You are correct that the image is wrong- they forgot Bolivia
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Feb 20, 2019 22:23
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Discendo Vox posted:I mean Russia Today is literally a state propaganda agency. As I have discussed before, a major part of the modus of propaganda is to selectively present true information to create a false impression. There's nothing to discuss with its content, it's just more frame-shifting whataboutism. you're the one shifting frames by trying to pretend the US has no role in this situation at all. i mean, i understand why. you hate maduro and want him deposed even if it's by the puppet of donald trump, and you don't particularly care about the aftermath of said coup.
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Feb 20, 2019 22:23
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Condiv posted:i mean, i understand why. you hate maduro and want him deposed even if it's by the puppet of donald trump, and you don't particularly care about the aftermath of said coup. this is extremely good faith non-bullshit
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Feb 20, 2019 22:24
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It's still not a dichotomy, it's still not a coup, we're still on the same old treadmill, you still need to read the OP.
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Feb 20, 2019 22:24
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sorry discendo vox, it's a trump-backed coup. it's been plainly obvious for a while now and the OP isn't gonna save you from that factCease to Hope posted:this is extremely good faith non-bullshit he very clearly does hate maduro. I don't think he's wrong to hate maduro, but I do think he's short-sighted for arguing in favor of a US-backed coup Condiv fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 22:29
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Discendo Vox posted:I mean Russia Today is literally a state propaganda agency. As I have discussed before, a major part of the modus of propaganda is to selectively present true information to create a false impression. There's nothing to discuss with its content, it's just more frame-shifting whataboutism. if it is nefarious russian propaganda, point out where it is wrong. state propaganda sometimes prints the truth (especially about their enemies).
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Feb 20, 2019 22:31
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