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GoluboiOgon posted:if it is nefarious russian propaganda, point out where it is wrong. state propaganda sometimes prints the truth (especially about their enemies). fond memories of the neocons explaining that listening to any reports out of Al Jazeera saying "iraq is going badly, and will end horribly" were Helping The Terrorists Win America really does just have the one script for these things.
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Feb 20, 2019 22:34
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:if you have any evidence suggesting that Guaido or his people have either the capability or inclination to tell their backers in DC to gently caress off, he has no interest in being a Pinochet for the 21st century, that would be very reassuring. What evidence do you have that somehow guiado is gonna become a pinochet?
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Feb 21, 2019 00:00
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Pharohman777 posted:What evidence do you have that somehow guiado is gonna become a pinochet? the example of the last dozen times Elliot Abrams propped up a coup in a country seen as insufficiently aligned with US policy, the tools he used to consolidate their reign, and the total absence of any pushback from his chosen vessels as the country proceeded to descend into bloody sectarian chaos that made its status beforehand look like an idyllic dream. i'm open to being told history will not repeat itself this time, that this time is different, for reason X, and reason Y. that Guaido (helps if you spell the name right, btw) is a man of firmer moral character and principle than the murderer's row that is his predecessors, or that there is some set of conditions on the ground that make him slightly less beholden to his good friends and their heterodox approach to DIY home improvement. but you're going to need something more substantial than "if there is no such evidence, that would make the coup look bad."
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Feb 21, 2019 00:22
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One of the many facets of the crisis is the fact that we're seeing the split in the state spread to international fronts. While we've had a shadow Supreme Court in exile for a while now and a pseudo-legislature in the Constituent Assembly since 2017, foreign affairs has remained, for the most part, firmly in the hands of Maduro. A few weeks ago, Guaido named diplomatic teams to about a dozen countries. I'm not sure if the number has grown since then, but now there are a few countries that have two sets of Venezuelan ambassadors: one set representing Maduro, and the other representing Guaido. On February 15, the government of Costa Rica gave Maduro's diplomatic team 60 days to leave the country, presumably because it was going to recognize Guaido's diplomats as the representatives of Venezuela's legitimate government (remember that Costa Rica is part of the Lima Group). Earlier today, the Guaido-appointed ambassador--a woman named Maria Faria--took over the embassy building with her staff. The Costa Rican government was very upset with them, because it considered that the takeover was disrespectful to the 60-day time frame they'd given Maduro's people to get out. Here's Maria Faria with her staff posing inside the embassy earlier today: https://twitter.com/Mandyfaria26/status/1098192617295237120 A group of people gathered outside of the embassy as the day went on and got into arguments. There were people from both sides there: https://twitter.com/carlosfox25/status/1098279537727758336
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Feb 21, 2019 00:27
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Pharohman777 posted:The problem with Abrams is that I see it as 'beggars can't be choosers' drat, I need a sitter right away, but Albert Fish is the only one available! Oh well! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Feb 21, 2019 00:30
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:drat, I need a sitter right away, but Albert Fish is the only one available! under the circumstances we have no choice but to leave our kids in the loving care of The Pedophile Whose Hands Are Made Entirely Out Of Knives. sure there are a bunch of people who say that's a bad idea, but you know how people get. "Noun! Verb! The Pedophile Whose Hands Are Made Entirely Out Of Knives!"
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Feb 21, 2019 00:35
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that's kind of hilarious and I may have to side with Costa Rica here Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 00:42
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Darth Walrus posted:Amnesty International is actually pretty famous for making GBS threads on Israel. Give their Cast Lead report areas sometime. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:fond memories of the neocons explaining that listening to any reports out of Al Jazeera saying "iraq is going badly, and will end horribly" were Helping The Terrorists Win It's incredibly dumb to post stupid RT headlines. It's also rather silly to dismiss something because of the source when a short google search confirms it from multiple sources, though.
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Feb 21, 2019 01:27
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Discendo Vox posted:
What lies have I said, Umberto? Elliot Abrams is a psycho cold warrior yes or no?
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Feb 21, 2019 03:00
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Like you're accusing us of being US centric in the same post you say the US *must* be part of any regime change because oil refineries and just leave it at that. Like are you actually just a CIA shill or what like no one else can possibly ever refine any Venezuelan oil therefore obviously of course the US must be involved BUT if anyone questions the USA's motivations that's off topic and not relevant. Lmfao.
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Feb 21, 2019 03:02
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Truga posted:It's incredibly dumb to post stupid RT headlines. It's also rather silly to dismiss something because of the source when a short google search confirms it from multiple sources, though. It's a strong reason for people to post other sources that aren't hiding what they are, though. Again, a significant part of the evidence of bad faith here is that I'm having to locate what the source is. Mordin, you're not the only or most active poster of this poo poo, but just scrolling up a bit: Moridin920 posted:... he's offering to call elections? Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 03:06
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Hey bud whose the side insisting that the USA just absolutely has to stick their dicks in and that's just The Way It Is and it better not be questioned or else you are being US centric? Do you guys even read over what you post? Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 03:06
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Discendo Vox posted:You're not the only or most active poster of this poo poo, but just scrolling up a bit: That wasn't a lie that was a mistake which I was corrected on and then I said I was wrong and I dropped it Who is poo poo posting to muddy the waters here exactly lol
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Feb 21, 2019 03:07
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We've corrected the "calling new elections" line from Maduro three or four times in the last couple weeks. Again, so very much of this stuff is in the OP, or communicated by posters with more ties to and experience with Venezuela. That history and context gets obviated for the five billionth "but the US". There are multiple users, such as Condiv and YMB, who've been kind enough to make their conflation of the opposition and the US explicit, then alternate between shitposts and false claims.
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 03:11
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This is a 360 page thread that moves somewhat quickly and it took just a moment to link me to stuff that showed I was wrong whereas you've now spent at least 5-6 posts saying people are liars and are posting in bad faith to muddy the waters. Also when I say I was wrong and misinformed that's still not good enough apparently lol Also you claim that anyone talking about the US is being a poo poo poster and doing disinformation while you simultaneously claim that the USA *must* be involved in anything happening in Venezuela bc oil refineries. Which my friend I'm pretty sure is called 'doublethink.' Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 03:13
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Moridin920 posted:This is a 360 page thread that moves somewhat quickly and it took just a moment to link me to stuff that showed I was wrong whereas you've now spent at least 5-6 posts today saying people are posting in bad faith to muddy the waters. Well, we've recently had people post just today who think that the US is causing the famine in Venezuela and that it controls the opposition now. And the US literally cannot stay out of this issue because the primary source of government income, the oil refineries, are on US soil. So now the question is which government gets the money from those refineries.
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Feb 21, 2019 03:27
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Pharohman777 posted:And the US literally cannot stay out of this issue because the primary source of government income, the oil refineries, are on US soil. So now the question is which government gets the money from those refineries. That's fine but this necessarily means discussion about the US and its intentions, especially with respect to their special envoy, is fair game. You can't say that oh the US controls all the money basically but also their motivations or intentions or anything is to be ignored. As if the USA is just a black box in which oil goes in and money comes out and it isn't political at all. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 03:38
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Moridin920 posted:That's fine but this necessarily means discussion about the US and its intentions, especially with respect to their special envoy, is fair game. It is, but do understand that their are non-American actors with their own reasons for doing things, and try to incorporate those reasons into your arguments.
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Feb 21, 2019 03:41
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Cease to Hope posted:It is, but do understand that their are non-American actors with their own reasons for doing things, and try to incorporate those reasons into your arguments. I will endeavor to do so. I'm reading through articles and stuff that were posted in response to my earlier posts. Nonetheless handwaving away Elliot Abrams here is silly that's all I'm getting at. I realize only a few people are doing that but I'm also not going to just get called a poo poo posting liar without defending myself. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 03:42
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Discendo Vox posted:It's a strong reason for people to post other sources that aren't hiding what they are, though. Again, a significant part of the evidence of bad faith here is that I'm having to locate what the source is. again, defend your claim that that map is unreliable because it is from a russian source. what about it is wrong, other than the fact that it ignores a us coup in bolivia? is it because it uses the color red, infamously associated with borscht and communism, which deludes misguided bernie bros into defending maduro the way that a matador provokes a bull? or are you simply unwilling to consider the role that the us has played in south american politics in the last century?
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Feb 21, 2019 03:57
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Moridin920 posted:I will endeavor to do so. I'm reading through articles and stuff that were posted in response to my earlier posts. I'm not handwaving Elliot Abrams. We all know who Elliot Abrams is, just as we're familiar with US atrocities in South America. I'm not responding to you anywhere near to the degree that I'm responding to other posters, who are repeatedly posting about him for the entire day with increasingly vivid metaphorical imagery, in between posting propaganda while not saying where they got it from, and repeating already refuted conspiracy theories coming directly from Maduro. Here's the context to consider: you fell for the Maduro elections line, and owned up to it, and have learned. That's genuinely really great of you. Where did you hear it from? Why do people keep coming to the thread making the same mistakes? GoluboiOgon posted:again, defend your claim that that map is unreliable because it is from a russian source. what about it is wrong, other than the fact that it ignores a us coup in bolivia? is it because it uses the color red, infamously associated with borscht and communism, which deludes misguided bernie bros into defending maduro the way that a matador provokes a bull? or are you simply unwilling to consider the role that the us has played in south american politics in the last century? If we know that the message is true, why do we need to repeat it over and over? Why does it need to frame our understanding of the subject? Why is RT playing it over and over in social media? What is the intention of promulgating that message, without attribution or information more directly relevant to the situation in Venezuela? Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 04:00
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Discendo Vox posted:If we know that the message is true, why do we need to repeat it over and over? Why does it need to frame our understanding of the subject? Why is RT playing it over and over in social media? What is the intention of promulgating that message, without attribution or information more directly relevant to the situation in Venezuela? again, what about that image is wrong (other than not coloring enough countries in south america red)? is it that it shows the us in a bad light by telling the truth? why is this so offensive to you? you already seem to believe that guaido is the best hope for venezuela, why complain about a map that shows all of the other wonderful ways in which the us has helped south america?
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Feb 21, 2019 04:08
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oh boy, i'm excited to read 15 more posts about this one image from a russian news site, especially from posters who use "guaido" and "the us" as synonyms
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Feb 21, 2019 04:19
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Cease to Hope posted:oh boy, i'm excited to read 15 more posts about this one image from a russian news site, especially from posters who use "guaido" and "the us" as synonyms noun! verb! guaido!
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Feb 21, 2019 04:25
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on day 0 i said bolsonaro and trump propping up guaido would do way more damage than good, and 1 month later here we are, still stuck with a lovely centrist coup
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Feb 21, 2019 04:31
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Truga posted:on day 0 i said bolsonaro and trump propping up guaido would do way more damage than good, and 1 month later here we are, still stuck with a lovely centrist coup you would prefer a right wing coup?
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Feb 21, 2019 04:37
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i would prefer if the "socialist international" opposition was socialist and did a revolution instead of a lovely centrist coup
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Feb 21, 2019 04:57
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Truga posted:i would prefer if the "socialist international" opposition was socialist and did a revolution instead of a lovely centrist coup That generally doesn't happen without outside support or the support of the military. Revolutionaries armed with sticks don't generally survive long enough to be remembered.
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Feb 21, 2019 05:00
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well, i have extremely good news, then: https://twitter.com/Jake_Hanrahan/status/1093467453168988161
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Feb 21, 2019 05:07
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Hey guys, guardian made this video - it's in the eyes of the collectivos running a bakery - i remember you guys talking about this take over https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2vLoW04Bc4
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Feb 21, 2019 05:14
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caberham posted:Hey guys, guardian made this video - it's in the eyes of the collectivos running a bakery - i remember you guys talking about this take over I wonder why Maduro's government just doesn't do this with all grocery stores?
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Feb 21, 2019 05:16
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Honestly, it's a little disconnected to reality, when everyone is starving left and right, and you just dance around the streets. People are malnourished left and right because of state economic policies and call out on some international conspiracy? Everyone who works in that bakery look a lot more well fed than everyone else lining up for bread, gee I wonder why
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Feb 21, 2019 05:18
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Well, its kinda simple. The government never adjusted the price bread must be sold at, so bakeries lose money baking bread. Since they won't be able to operate if all they sell is bread that never earns back the cost to produce it, they make the minimum mandated amount daily. Confectionery and desserts like cakes can be sold at any price, so the rest of the shelves are stocked with that since they can set its price. The government has handled price controls very very badly since there is no subsidy to compensate bakers for selling bread they lose money on. edit: A year or so ago there was a hubbub about this issue and some bakeries were nationalized for doing this. The bakeries that were nationalized were never reopened and talk of doing something about the issue by the government faded away. Pharohman777 fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 05:32
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So let them eat cake.
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Feb 21, 2019 06:33
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Also instead of selling cakes you also have the option of selling bread on the massive black market that has developed without having to spend extra on sugar or other stuff.
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Feb 21, 2019 07:01
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caberham posted:Honestly, it's a little disconnected to reality, when everyone is starving left and right, and you just dance around the streets. I mean dancing or not, that mother looked alarmingly thin. I was watching a streaming Maduro rally a few weeks ago and there was one guy who looked like a scarecrow in red track suit dancing a shuffling cumbia by himself. No matter how hard the times people still have to find someway to keep living, rather than just survive. If you aren't seriously afraid of what might happen to her children in the near future you need to think about how much worse the collapse in export revenue is about to make everything.
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Feb 21, 2019 07:29
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http://outbreaknewstoday.com/measles-venezuela-public-health-system-decay-73910/ Interview of a Venezuelan doctor about a measle's outbreak.
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Feb 21, 2019 07:38
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I've said it before, but Venezuela would be tremendously better off if the PSUV had just gone full bolshevik and nationalized every part of the food industry. Maduro ain't no Stalin, I'll give him that. But in this case I think that's actually worse, honestly.
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Feb 21, 2019 08:41
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as i understand it, the psuv under maduro hasn't done a good job of balancing capital reinvestment and spending the revenue on other things.
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Feb 21, 2019 08:50
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Mr. Sunshine posted:I've said it before, but Venezuela would be tremendously better off if the PSUV had just gone full bolshevik and nationalized every part of the food industry. Maduro ain't no Stalin, I'll give him that. But in this case I think that's actually worse, honestly. No. Stalin would be worse. Are you insane?
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Feb 21, 2019 09:02
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