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Narsham posted:Rogues can double or triple-count the movement bonus and probably aren't your first choice for Haste; Rogues are basically the best haste targets in the game?!?
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Feb 21, 2019 20:50
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Conjurer just hit level 7. I'm taking Polymorph but the other spell pick is going to backfill since one level 4 slot is probably gonna be Polymorph all the time until we hit another level. There are some better spells I could pick that I'm probably not going to get because I don't want to monopolize. (Haste leads to having to explain how to maximize it and Hypnotic Pattern either does nothing or just kind of ends encounters singlehandedly.) I'm looking at either Hold Person since it's an urban campaign, or Ice Knife to have a level one recharge of Benign Transposition. Things I either have or that are effectively replaced that do a lot of work: Web, Slow, Misty Step, Counterspell, Tiny Hut, most rituals, etc. Any thoughts? I'm trying to make it my job to make the other folks feel like stars rather than turn games into "Wizard Wins!"
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Feb 21, 2019 21:13
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Is there a way for an Oathbreaker Paladin to get the Bane spell or is it Oath of Vengeance only?
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Feb 21, 2019 21:18
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Conjurer just hit level 7. I'm taking Polymorph but the other spell pick is going to backfill since one level 4 slot is probably gonna be Polymorph all the time until we hit another level. have fun with your giant ape form.
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Feb 21, 2019 21:20
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Is there a way for an Oathbreaker Paladin to get the Bane spell or is it Oath of Vengeance only? Magic Initiate it from the Bard list?
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Feb 21, 2019 21:49
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Reading this thread recently has reminded me of something that I've never liked about basically every version of D&D ever: There's a big focus and many tools & systems for avoiding damage completely, but seemingly precious little for mitigating it partially.
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Feb 21, 2019 21:57
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The "all or nothing" attack rolls seem to be a big influence on why there aren't many things that reduce damage taken, just things that mess with attack rolls. I get that it was taken from a naval combat game where it makes a lot more sense, and is a logical basic evolution out of the "kill or don't kill" attacks from the wargames D&D evolved from, but that's one of the few features of D&D that just sort of stopped evolving and was never really looked at since the 70s. It would be cool if avoiding attacks versus getting hit but the blow being softened by armour/etc. were separated but that might be too adventurous to expect from D&D at this point
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Feb 21, 2019 22:25
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Damage reduction like they had in 3E and 4E (taking a flat number of damage off the top) and resistance in 5E are great mechanisms for that, the designers just inevitably chicken out on making them not-lovely-traps for players to use. Only monsters get to be cool defensively. For some reason, the possibility of a goblin with a knife being a non-threat to certain characters is too scary of a proposition.
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Feb 21, 2019 22:41
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Oh I skipped 3E and 4E so I just assumed from 5E that they didn't do a whole lot between AD&D 2E and 5E. I rather like typed damage and resistances/immunities and the fact they actually committed to those in 5E but AC being more or less the only contribution from armour and shields seems so backwards.
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Feb 21, 2019 22:45
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Core D&D design principles: A level 20 fighter is actually no better at avoiding a stab than a level 1 fighter.
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Feb 21, 2019 22:45
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BattleMaster posted:Oh I skipped 3E and 4E so I just assumed from 5E that they didn't do a whole lot between AD&D 2E and 5E. I rather like typed damage and resistances/immunities and the fact they actually committed to those in 5E but AC being more or less the only contribution from armour and shields seems so backwards. 4e had an entire Fighter build that gave them temporary HP every time they hit, among other things. Still taking damage but not "real" damage so it's pretty close to your idea.
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Feb 21, 2019 22:52
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inthesto posted:Core D&D design principles: A level 20 fighter is actually no better at avoiding a stab from a similarly-leveled entity than a level 1 fighter. resistance / damage reduction / armor has to be worked into the system itself, not as an extra step on top otherwise it's too cumbersome. As I recall, cyberpunk had you roll X numbers of dice and then subtracted some for your target's armor. Bhodi fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 22:54
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inthesto posted:Core D&D design principles: A level 20 fighter is actually no better at avoiding a stab than a level 1 fighter. He will probably have better gear though. AC is just low period in this edition. It caps around 25 for monsters.
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Feb 21, 2019 22:55
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I know that some alternate, optional rules for armour reducing damage as well were listed in some supplemental book during the 2nd edition days, but I can't remember where. It might have been Combat & Tactics, but I don't have that book anymore.
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Feb 21, 2019 23:16
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JustJeff88 posted:I know that some alternate, optional rules for armour reducing damage as well were listed in some supplemental book during the 2nd edition days, but I can't remember where. It might have been Combat & Tactics, but I don't have that book anymore. Just glancing through C&T I don't see anything like that. It's mostly a lot of rules for turning D&D into a full-on miniatures game. Does have some fun crit tables and a decent breakdown of each weapon and armor type by period of history they most closely relate to for era specific games tho, didn't remember that I've spent all of 5 minutes looking through this, so it might well be in here, but nothing jumps out in the toc, index, or reading the armor and weapons chapter. The only thing close is certain weapons having advantages vs certain armors (like pierce vs chain, that sort of thing)
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Feb 21, 2019 23:39
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Maybe it's in skills & power? 2.5e had a ton of wild poo poo and it used to be all online on the purpleworm site for easy access but got taken down last I looked Edit woo it's back https://www.purpleworm.org/rules/ Missing like half the books but has the important ones Edit: don't see anything anywhere about armor also having damage reduction but I bet it exists Triple edit: apparently it only existed back then in a dragon magazine supplement . I wish all that stuff was better compiled (like rogue assassinate abilities and such) mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 23:42
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mastershakeman posted:Maybe it's in skills & power? 2.5e had a ton of wild poo poo and it used to be all online on the purpleworm site for easy access but got taken down last I looked Don't see it in S&P either, that's almostly entirely proficiency and kits. Digging around, Pathfinder has rules for that in Ultimate Combat, and 3.5 had it in Unearth Arcana's variant adventuring rules http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/armor-as-damage-reduction/
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Feb 21, 2019 23:49
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Sunlight Sensitivity is one of the dumbest racial traits in this game. Working on some concepts and a Kobold Rogue sounds fun unless we're outside at all.
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Feb 22, 2019 01:49
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Toshimo posted:Rogues are basically the best haste targets in the game?!? You tell us why and I'll explain why I disagree (assuming I do once I hear your reasoning).
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Feb 22, 2019 01:55
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Sunlight Sensitivity is one of the dumbest racial traits in this game. Working on some concepts and a Kobold Rogue sounds fun unless we're outside at all. It's bad and dumb, which is perfectly in line with everything else about light and vision. A friend pulls a "gently caress you, system intent" by playing a drow wizard who doesn't use any spells that require an attack roll. Loses out on optimisation but to them it's worth it just for the middle finger aspect. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Feb 22, 2019 |
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Feb 22, 2019 02:00
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My current party has 2 sunlight sensitive members. Thankfully the campaign is Dungeon of the Mad Mage so it doesn't matter! Unless it does later, no spoilers, wouldn't put it past loving Halaster to put down an artificial sun in this place somewhere just to gently caress over sunlight sensitive adventurers. Edit: This entire party is hilarious, entirely independently the group rolled a kobold, a goblin, a drow and an air genasi nobleman. A fifth person is going to join us later as a tiefling. The air genasi is a bard and the party face, which makes things extra funny as this chill talky nobleman is hanging out with basically a rogue's gallery of coincidentally non-evil evil races. DM made lots of jokes in the Yawning Portal about there being bets on who would backstab the genasi first. Infinity Gaia fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Feb 22, 2019 |
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Feb 22, 2019 02:10
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MonsterEnvy posted:He will probably have better gear though. Wait what, 25 is low?
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Feb 22, 2019 02:27
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Mr. Humalong posted:Wait what, 25 is low? 5E has a lot of stat squish in general, which may seem surprising considering monsters still get hundreds of HP at end-game. But it's true, this is still better than how it used to be, 3.5/Pathfinder numbers just get stupid eventually.
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Feb 22, 2019 02:29
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Mr. Humalong posted:Wait what, 25 is low? The tarrasque has AC 35 in 3.5 versus 25 in 5e to give you some point of reference. PCs could go past even that with the right splatbooks.
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Feb 22, 2019 02:33
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5e is all I've ever played, so the idea of a player managing to break like 30 AC or something seems insane to me. (Someone do a pbp of 4e so I can try 4e) e: (or 13th age)
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Feb 22, 2019 02:33
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Infinity Gaia posted:5E has a lot of stat squish in general, which may seem surprising considering monsters still get hundreds of HP at end-game. But it's true, this is still better than how it used to be, 3.5/Pathfinder numbers just get stupid eventually. 25 AC is the standard AC for an 11th level monster in Pathfinder. A 30th level monster, which is as far as the charts go, has an average AC of 48.
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Feb 22, 2019 02:35
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Mr. Humalong posted:5e is all I've ever played, so the idea of a player managing to break like 30 AC or something seems insane to me. Different number and scaling system entirely so its not something you can compare. Just because they are both called AC doesn't mean they function in remotely the same way. I had a pathfinder cleric that was rolling +29 to hit at level 18 (this was nothing amazing) while my last pathfinder character was a paladin roll +31 at level 17 (or +40 when smiting) with an AC of 37 (this was also an AC low enough that it was just a bit above useless really but on smiting targets the AC jumped up to like 45 or something which made it pretty good).
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Feb 22, 2019 02:49
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Mr. Humalong posted:5e is all I've ever played, so the idea of a player managing to break like 30 AC or something seems insane to me. To compare with 3.5, for example, the difference is that your proficiency bonus to hit caps out at +7 in 5e but goes up to +20 in 3.5. And that's before going into other systematic things, like more and better magic items all around to pump your stats way above base, just to keep up with monsters. I'd never recommend 3.5 to anybody that doesn't know exactly what they're getting into, but there's something deeply satisfying to my lizard brain in theorycrafting silly builds with big numbers on paper. For its flaws, the stat squish in 5e was a good and necessary change from previous editions.
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Feb 22, 2019 02:58
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The 3e-era "armor as damage reduction" variant rule simply has you halving the amount of AC granted by a piece of armor, and then taking that half and making it into a flat DR amount. In 5e terms, a breastplate, instead of setting your AC to [14+Dex], would instead set it to [12+Dex], and also give you 2 points of Damage Reduction. ___ From a broader design perspective, part of the reason why there's a lot more of an emphasis on AC and causing misses as a means of avoiding getting damaged, is that it keeps things relatively simple: if you have DR, that's another step to add onto processing a hit if you increase HP amounts and damage amounts to where you're not playing around with single digits, it's a layer of arithmetic that increases the complexity of the mechanics Like, obviously starting with ~6 HP when enemies are also rolling 1d6 for damage is too far on the low end of the scale, but if you start with 30 HP and enemies are rolling 2d6+2 for damage AND you have some DR mechanic on top of that ... that might be a little too involved for some people? Maybe not for me personally, and I imagine not for any number of people here, but I think it does matter.
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Feb 22, 2019 03:27
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gradenko_2000 posted:From a broader design perspective, part of the reason why there's a lot more of an emphasis on AC and causing misses as a means of avoiding getting damaged, is that it keeps things relatively simple: Also because the concept of AC was imported from a naval combat system where missing and hitting but not penetrating armour is the same thing to a ww2 era battleship.
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Feb 22, 2019 03:33
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Mr. Humalong posted:5e is all I've ever played, so the idea of a player managing to break like 30 AC or something seems insane to me. Elaborating on this, there's only 28 monsters with AC above 20, and 80% of them are CR 21 or higher. Even then only Terrasque and Tiamat (both CR 30) are at the top with AC 25 - the rest are 21~22. PCs reaching AC 30 is easy on certain builds; full plate plus shield and Defense FS means base AC21 on a Fighter or Paladin, add Shield of Faith or Haste and that's up to 23, then a conditional reaction Shield (Eldritch Knight or Hexblade dip) and you're up to AC 28. So just one +2 or two +1 magic items and you're there. Bladesingers can get here as well since their base AC is DEX+INT+3 and they have Shield, so just give them Bracers of Defense and they're good to go.
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Feb 22, 2019 03:35
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gradenko_2000 posted:Like, obviously starting with ~6 HP when enemies are also rolling 1d6 for damage is too far on the low end of the scale, but if you start with 30 HP and enemies are rolling 2d6+2 for damage AND you have some DR mechanic on top of that ... that might be a little too involved for some people? Maybe not for me personally, and I imagine not for any number of people here, but I think it does matter. My boyfriend told me that he's played RPGs with adults who needed help subtracting when they took damage so maybe subtracting is enough to confound enough people that it's not worth it even though I can do it in my sleep
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Feb 22, 2019 03:36
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BattleMaster posted:My boyfriend told me that he's played RPGs with adults who needed help subtracting when they took damage so maybe subtracting is enough to confound enough people that it's not worth it even though I can do it in my sleep It's true, some people just struggle with math in their heads. Like, I love watching critical role, but half the cast struggles to add up a couple dice plus a modifier, and they're in a steady regular game with fantastic prep. It's just not a thing some people do. Whereas I can just pop off stuff like that easy peasy in a couple seconds, but can't keep myself speaking in the same accent through a conversation. AC can just as easily signify glancing hits that don't deal damage as it does complete misses, but it's all flavor. A low damage roll can be fluffed as a weak hit as well, or one partially prevented by armor. Just depends on the DM or player to use the numbers that way.
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Feb 22, 2019 03:43
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Some people freeze with game math and it has nothing to do with complexity. One of my high school friends now has a phd (in engineering) and still has to tap D&D math into a calculator to get it done in a reasonable amount of time. He can do math I can't even start on with a calculator, in his head, quickly. He can't add damage dice without freezing.
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Feb 22, 2019 03:47
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:One of my high school friends now has a phd (in engineering) and still has to tap D&D math into a calculator to get it done in a reasonable amount of time. I bought half a dozen of those cheapo simple calculators to distribute to people if and when I finally get to run a face to face game
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Feb 22, 2019 03:49
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D&D subtracting and Addition is pretty much the only math I would place myself as being mediocre at. (At all other types I am just terrible. Math was my bane in school)
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Feb 22, 2019 03:51
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gradenko_2000 posted:I bought half a dozen of those cheapo simple calculators to distribute to people if and when I finally get to run a face to face game I have a box of those somewhere. Big dumb flimsy plastic '90s ones in bright colours that I got 3 for a buck about 20 years ago and they're still going strong. I'd bring those, a shitload of random cheap bright dice, and a handful of pencils, erasers, sharpeners, and notepads. Total cost like 20 bucks and prevented a whole lot of loving around for years.
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Feb 22, 2019 04:03
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Mr. Humalong posted:5e is all I've ever played, so the idea of a player managing to break like 30 AC or something seems insane to me. 
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Feb 22, 2019 04:24
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lightrook posted:To compare with 3.5, for example, the difference is that your proficiency bonus to hit caps out at +7 in 5e but goes up to +20 in 3.5. And that's before going into other systematic things, like more and better magic items all around to pump your stats way above base, just to keep up with monsters. I'd never recommend 3.5 to anybody that doesn't know exactly what they're getting into, but there's something deeply satisfying to my lizard brain in theorycrafting silly builds with big numbers on paper. For its flaws, the stat squish in 5e was a good and necessary change from previous editions. The stat squish is good, just because it was too hard to compare characters who were optimized versus not. 5E is way, way more accessible and better balanced because of it, even if it's less epic.
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Feb 22, 2019 04:27
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I do not like this.
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Feb 22, 2019 05:46
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