Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

as in saddam's weight + hitler's weight = maduro's weight

saddam facial hair + hitler facial hair = maduro facial hair

it adds up

# ? Feb 22, 2019 03:16

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# ? May 21, 2024 21:12

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Here's Carvajal's full speech denouncing Maduro as a dictator and recognizing Juan Guaido as president. Given how deeply involved in crimes Carvajal is alleged to be, it's likely that the Amnesty Law played a role in getting him to switch sides.

quote:

People of Venezuela: we find ourselves in the worst republican and humanitarian crisis of our modern history. That is why I address you two bearing two responsibilities: that which I have as deputy to the National Assembly, which is the last bastion of democracy alive in this country, but also as a solider and member of the Venezuelan army.

Everyone knows me for having carried out my duties during a military career spanning more than thirty years, during which I headed military intelligence and counterintelligence for more than a decade, during two of Chavez�s presidential terms. Besides being my commander in chief, [Chavez] was my great friend and whose soul only God will know how to judge.

Public speaking is not my strength. But when I offered my services as deputy [to the National Assembly] to the people of Monagas, I relied more on my actions than in political rhetoric, and I think that because of this the noble people gave me their trust. However, I consider that my words today could stir some to action, and are the best way to address you.

What I do consider to be my strength is what the military academy taught me: to always carry out my sacred duties and my oath to the nation as a soldier and as a citizen. Among the duties of the solider is following orders without question as long as they are legal. Among the oaths is to do whatever is necessary to defend the Venezuelan people from any oppression, domestic or foreign, always guaranteeing the constitutional order of the nation, the same order that began to wane with the creation of the National Constituent Assembly against which I spoke at the time, and that then went on to [include] the carrying out of tainted [presidential] elections], and culminated on January 10 with Nicolas Maduro�s usurpation of power.

Before continuing, I�d like to share the extracts of a letter that president Hugo Chavez wrote me once, the contents of which I think are particularly fitting. I quote:

�I want to thank you because you�ve done a good job in a difficult, complicated and hard situation. We all know that the state security forces were turned into tools of repression by puntofijismo [the political period before Chavez came to power]. They could act with total impunity outside of the law to defend the interests of the political and economy elites. Only the mention of the DIM [military intelligence] as well as (unintelligible) meant abuses, torture and terror for many Venezuelans.�

Ironically, the mere mention of the DGCIM, the SEBIN, the FAES, or the National Guard today has once again come to mean abuses, torture and terror for many Venezuelans. All in the name of complying, outside of the law, with the repressive strategies of this government.

I quote:

�We must take into account that the time was come to revolutionize national security and defense. We are living in new times that calls for the consolidation and strengthening of the civil-military union, along with the creation of a single and unified class of man and woman [and] citizens�.

I ask myself, at what point did the armed forces�which were called to �consolidate and strengthen the civil-military union��decide to do the opposite, and turn its back on the people? When did they stop forming part of the citizenry, to instead become oppressors of their freedoms and defenders of the political elite? Could this have something to do with following foreign orders?

I quote:

�This is why our Liberator [Simon Bolivar] said: �Providence cannot allow theft, treason and intrigue to triumph over patriotism and the purest rectitude.� These words from the father of our homeland have the utmost relevance, because this new Venezuelan era calls on us to grab our swords in defense of our social guarantees and the people�s rights. Our efforts depend on us being dignified heirs . Noble and patriotic is the mission that falls upon the Military Intelligence Directorate in these times when each of us must carry out the most sacred, beautiful and demanding of tasks: the builders of our Bolivarian republic.�

To the [army] high command: you have on your shoulders the weight of the army that forged freedom in more than five countries. It cannot be that this same army, which is now under the command of a handful of generals subjugated and aligned with Cuban interests, has become in the biggest collaborator with a dictatorial government designed to plague the people with misery. It is inexplicable that a group of people who call themselves the government�illegitimate since January 10�have decided to ignore a humanitarian crisis that, far from being faked by the media, is felt by all. It is inexplicable how the greed to remain in power has created so many calamities for our people, separating without mercy hundreds of thousands of families through the massive exodus of millions of Venezuelans. It is inexplicable how the judicialization of politics [sic] has been the only response due to the fear of holding free elections, as evidenced by the banning [of candidates], persecution, forced exile, and prison.

This is more than enough. Nicolas [Maduro]: assume your responsibility. Chavez did. On April 11 [2002], Chavez could not abide by the blood shed by 19 innocent Venezuelans [so he] handed himself over to the rebelling generals. Instead, you [Maduro] have murdered hundreds of students on the streets for demanding the rights that you have stolen from them. Add to this the number of people killed by the lack of medicine and crime. Take responsibility for the misery that you have brought to our land. Take responsibility for the humanitarian, economic, political, and social crises with which you�ve plagued all of Venezuelan.

As the man responsibly for watching over the [unintelligible] of the army for more than ten years, I feel the duty to be clear with all of the armed forces, the same for which I put so much effort into protecting from every kind of threat, deviations and meddling. Today, we do not have the technical capability to face any enemy. Whoever says the opposite is lying. The army is no stranger to disastrous Venezuelan reality. It also lacks food and medicine, and the majority of its equipment has been cannibalized and has had parts stolen. This is exactly how the rest of the country feels.

in light of this, I want to ask every man and woman who consider themselves true soldiers, those of you who live this harsh reality daily in your barracks as soldiers and as an ordinary citizen, let your heart guide you at this moment as the homeland needs upstanding soldiers for her defense, not for [the defense of] individual interests.

To the high command, which has brought us shame internationally with ridiculous videos, I warn you: you still have time to steer away from your path. You know the sorry state of our institution [the army] well.

Interim President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela Juan Guaido Marquez: here stands another solider of liberty and democracy to be put to use in the goal of restoring constitutional order to allow us to call free elections to hear the true will of our sovereign people. I am sure that we will soon have a democratic Venezuela with free and independent institutions.

My brothers in arms, how this will all end rests in your hands. Do not doubt that this is the correct side of history.

Thank you, and may God bless Venezuela.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 04:11

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:

I just find it darkly hypocritical that when I post a poll from a large, respected media source it gets pilloried due to the source having connections to chavez, but anything the opposition posts (even if it is from a "widely recognized" blogspot pollster) has to be judged on its own merits.

I can't help but feel this post is largely directed at me, as I have several times made comments about polls. The poll you are talking about wasn't just "connected" to Chavez, it literally came from a representative in the Constituent National Assembly. It's affiliation was naked partisan. Anyone who has read my posts should know that I am very skeptical of all polling coming out of Venezuela.

Looking at this new survey, Hercon Consultores seems to primarily owned/operated by one Marcos Hern�ndez L�pez. He has written a number of articles about his polling, you can read some some [url=https://www.reportero24.com/tag/marcos-hernandez-lopez/]here.[.url] He seems to engage in anti-Maduro editorializing while summarizing his surveys, and is personally anti-Chavista. I could not find whether he has deeper institutional ties to the opposition besides just sharing their values but I would be extra cautious about the validity of this poll knowing what its creator has written.

The guy who operates Meganalisis by contrast sounds and speaks the way i would expect a professional pollster to sound, although that doesn't guarantee independence. Meganalisis also has a much longer record than other pollsters.

Knowing these kinds of surveys are easily manipulated and even vulnerable to outright fraud doesn't mean we are free to pick the one whose results we like best. It is incumbent upon us to default to skepticism, and expect the authors to offer proof of why they can be trusted.

Squalid fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Feb 22, 2019

# ? Feb 22, 2019 04:35

upgunned shitpost: Jan 21, 2015

guaido really shoring up his support in the death squad adjacent community.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 05:07

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

There wont be any death squads. Its apparent that the people defending maduro think they are doing so in good faith and as loyal socialists. But venezuela is not a good faith socialist nor is Maduro. Maduro is a dictator. He rules his population with food control. Russia is not going to intervene in Latin america and this is not the 70s ,or 80s. This is the year 2019. We have learned a lot over those years. We drive to ask the quintessential question first. How do we help without loving their country up. The US officials are asking this when they deliberate about the subject. The family jewels are already out guys. The CIA is a very different organization now.

WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Feb 22, 2019

# ? Feb 22, 2019 05:45

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

There wont be any death squads. Its apparent that the people defending maduro think they are doing so in good faith and as loyal socialists. But venezuela is not a good faith socialist nor is Maduro. Maduro is a dictator. He rules his population with food control. Russia is not going to intervene in Latin america and this is not the 70s ,or 80s. This is the year 2019. We have learned a lot over those years. We drive to ask the quintessential question first. How do we help without loving their country up. The US officials are asking this when they deliberate about the subject. The family jewels are already out guys. The CIA is a very different organization now.

trying to extract meaning from this is a hilariously doomed exercise, but I am genuinely curious what you meant by "the family jewels are already out"

# ? Feb 22, 2019 07:18

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

There wont be any death squads. Its apparent that the people defending maduro think they are doing so in good faith and as loyal socialists. But venezuela is not a good faith socialist nor is Maduro. Maduro is a dictator. He rules his population with food control. Russia is not going to intervene in Latin america and this is not the 70s ,or 80s. This is the year 2019. We have learned a lot over those years. We drive to ask the quintessential question first. How do we help without loving their country up. The US officials are asking this when they deliberate about the subject. The family jewels are already out guys. The CIA is a very different organization now.

what the hell is this

# ? Feb 22, 2019 07:20

MullardEL34: Sep 30, 2008; Basking in the cathode glow

This doesn't look good...
https://twitter.com/cristiancrespoj/status/1098774895855583233
https://twitter.com/StratSentinel/status/1098778810735050753
Apparently a bus carrying GNB officers started firing on civilians making their way to the aid convoy near Barinas.
EDIT:
https://twitter.com/ELINTNews/status/1098781205430964224

MullardEL34 fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Feb 22, 2019

# ? Feb 22, 2019 07:48

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Cease to Hope posted:

what the hell is this

LeoMarr having a normal day, apparently

# ? Feb 22, 2019 08:15

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

I'm uncertain of sourcing on the bus videos. The problem here is all the footage and reporting I'm seeing so far is from stridently anti-Maduro sources, which is both a) what you'd expect from the circumstances, but also b) not especially trustworthy.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 08:40

Kawasaki Nun: Jul 16, 2001; by Reene

uninterrupted posted:

Psst: the US already got caught smuggling guns into the country like 2 weeks ago, it�s not really food aid.

So did you just make up that people said they don't want US food aid or not?

# ? Feb 22, 2019 08:42

Doktor Avalanche: Dec 30, 2008

Kawasaki Nun posted:

So did you just make up that people said they don't want US food aid or not?

"Excuse me sir, you haven't answered our question! Now, have you stopped beating your wife?"

# ? Feb 22, 2019 08:59

Bob le Moche: Jul 10, 2011; I AM A HORRIBLE TANKIE MORON
WHO LONGS TO SUCK CHAVISTA COCK !

I SUGGEST YOU IGNORE ANY POSTS MADE BY THIS PERSON ABOUT VENEZUELA, POLITICS, OR ANYTHING ACTUALLY !

(This title paid for by money stolen from PDVSA)

https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/1098793888758857729

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

This is the year 2019. We have learned a lot over those years. We drive to ask the quintessential question first. How do we help without loving their country up. The US officials are asking this when they deliberate about the subject. The family jewels are already out guys. The CIA is a very different organization now.

Aw, you are so naive and innocent, it's adorable

# ? Feb 22, 2019 14:12

Private Witt: Feb 21, 2019

https://twitter.com/AKurmanaev/status/1098931072539205632

This guy is, by the way, a very good follow for English speakers looking for news out of Venezuela. Along with the English feed of Reuters: https://twitter.com/ReutersVzla

# ? Feb 22, 2019 14:14

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

There may have been two shootings last night involving buses. I'm trying to work it out now.

El Nacional is reporting today that at least 12 indigenous persons were injured in a shooting last night in the San Francisco de Yurunai community in Bolivar state, near the Brazilian border. The shooting occurred when "soldiers arrived on a bus" at a roadblock set up by the protesters and started shooting at them.

https://twitter.com/TAMARA_SUJU/status/1098907643605905408

Tamara Suju, a prominent human rights lawyer, reported this morning that a woman died of her injuries there this morning.

It could be that the videos from last night were misreported as being in Barinas state and that this is the same event, or that there were two bus-related shootings last night.

EDIT: Nevermind. The San Francisco de Yuruani shooting happened this morning. So the videos from last night are of another event.

Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Feb 22, 2019

# ? Feb 22, 2019 14:16

AGGGGH BEES: Apr 28, 2018; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-portugal-venezuela-tankers-exclusive-idUSKCN1QA2DJ

The crews of two tankers stuck in Portugal over unpaid bills are abandoning them.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 14:22

Private Witt: Feb 21, 2019

Bob le Moche posted:

https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/1098793888758857729

The only reason that humanitarian aid for a country that is in desperate, desperate need for food and medicine is deemed "political" is because Maduro's stance on humanitarian aid is that the country does not currently need any.

Maduro is about as evil and demented as they come, and people obliquely defending him with this bullshit aren't far behind.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 14:31

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Another caravan-related incident from last night:

https://twitter.com/AsambleaVE/status/1098841511079436288

That's National Assembly deputy Mariela Magallanes explaining that the bus she was on was attacked in the early morning ours in the Araure municipality of Portuguese state. Someone threw a huge rock through the window, which injured one of the drivers.

https://twitter.com/NTN24ve/status/1098899447071813632

And this video is from Cojedes state. Its shows residents clapping as an aid caravan heading for the border passes through:

https://twitter.com/TVVnoticias/status/1098761728341479429

EDIT: There was also activity on the Tienditas bridge last night. Venezuelan soldiers were seen soldering something near the cargo containers that they put up to, uhhhh, not block the bridge according to some:

https://twitter.com/FedericoBlackB/status/1098936801648103424

Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Feb 22, 2019

# ? Feb 22, 2019 14:31

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

Chuck Boone posted:

Another caravan-related incident from last night:

https://twitter.com/AsambleaVE/status/1098841511079436288

That's National Assembly deputy Mariela Magallanes explaining that the bus she was on was attacked in the early morning ours in the Araure municipality of Portuguese state. Someone threw a huge rock through the window, which injured one of the drivers.

https://twitter.com/NTN24ve/status/1098899447071813632

And this video is from Cojedes state. Its shows residents clapping as an aid caravan heading for the border passes through:

https://twitter.com/TVVnoticias/status/1098761728341479429

EDIT: There was also activity on the Tienditas bridge last night. Venezuelan soldiers were seen soldering something near the cargo containers that they put up to, uhhhh, not block the bridge according to some:

https://twitter.com/FedericoBlackB/status/1098936801648103424

Hey that thing all the aid organizations said would happen happened.

I hope Guaido is held responsible for his actions here. This was all completely avoidable.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 15:11

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

The death toll from the violence at San Francisco de Yurunai now sits at two, with 22 people injured. I just saw on Twitter that some of the injured are being transported to Brazil for medical treatment.

I also just saw that Tarek El Aissami is meeting with the Russian Minister of Defense in Moscow today.

EDIT: I also just saw this come on up Reuters: "Malnourished Venezuelans hope urgently needed aid arrives soon"

Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Feb 22, 2019

# ? Feb 22, 2019 15:25

Private Witt: Feb 21, 2019

uninterrupted posted:

Hey that thing all the aid organizations said would happen happened.

I hope Guaido is held responsible for his actions here. This was all completely avoidable.

Second victory lap this morning on a military dictatorship shooting people. Big day for you guys!

And what were these criminals doing? Oh, they were peacefully trying to get aid delivered in a country where many people are starving and dying due to a lack of medicine. Got it.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 15:28

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

Private Witt posted:

Second victory lap this morning on a military dictatorship shooting people. Big day for you guys!

And what were these criminals doing? Oh, they were peacefully trying to get aid delivered in a country where many people are starving and dying due to a lack of medicine. Got it.

For real, how much of a sucker do you have to be to still believe it�s aid post-CIA gun smuggling?

Why didnt the US through all of those aid orgs that said this would be a bad idea? Because they don�t want to help, they just want Venezuelans to die until they accept their US appointed puppet. Which lines up with the typical expat wishlist, so that�s not surprising.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 15:37

Kurnugia: Sep 2, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

https://mronline.org/2019/02/19/financial-blockade-chronology-of-a-strategy-to-destroy-venezuela/

This article lists quite a few cases of the US seizing funds meant for importing food and medicine from Venezuelan government's foreign bank accounts. Which is interesting, considering what's happening currently.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 15:44

Bob le Moche: Jul 10, 2011; I AM A HORRIBLE TANKIE MORON
WHO LONGS TO SUCK CHAVISTA COCK !

I SUGGEST YOU IGNORE ANY POSTS MADE BY THIS PERSON ABOUT VENEZUELA, POLITICS, OR ANYTHING ACTUALLY !

(This title paid for by money stolen from PDVSA)

Private Witt posted:

The only reason that humanitarian aid for a country that is in desperate, desperate need for food and medicine is deemed "political"

It's because the US is doing it to create an excuse for regime change and to take the oil.

Private Witt posted:

Maduro is about as evil and demented as they come, and people obliquely defending him with this bullshit aren't far behind.

Again, people pretending like the US is sending aid out of human concerns are either the biggest tools ever, or hypocrites and liars hoping for imperialist intervention to escalate.
You must be incredibly ignorant of the history of US foreign policy in Latin America, or of what the current US administration stands for and their interests in Venezuela, and utterly indoctrinated by US state propaganda, to genuinely believe that this is about humanitarian aid. Either that or you know very well what's going on and are just cynically hoping to trick people who are that ignorant into supporting the intervention, which is way worse.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 15:47

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Who operates Misi�n Verdad? Their social media accounts are propagandistic.

edit: yeah this article is just reciting the Maduro line. National Assembly is fraudulent, all sanctions are sanctions on the people, some sort of conspiracy theory about DolarToday, minimal and selective citations. I can't check the root article, because (of course) it's down.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Feb 22, 2019

# ? Feb 22, 2019 15:53

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

�No, you see, it is baby sledgehammer who is right, and the Red Cross who is wrong�

It�d be funny if it didn�t reveal the pro-coup sides tunnel-visioned lust for death. gently caress the people still in the country, pardon all the assassins and torturers we constantly talk about, as long as there�s a boot stomping the guy who took over my family golf course.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 15:55

Kurnugia: Sep 2, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Discendo Vox posted:

Who operates Misi�n Verdad? Their social media accounts are propagandistic.

edit: yeah this article is just reciting the Maduro line. National Assembly is fraudulent, all sanctions are sanctions on the people, some sort of conspiracy theory about DolarToday, minimal and selective citations. I can't check the root article, because (of course) it's down.

how does it matter? venezuelan foreign bank accounts still got seized, which does prevent the importation of goods regardless of the political allegiance of the writer

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:03

Gozinbulx: Feb 19, 2004

Who's lusting for death except you who are victim blaming people who got shot by police. Those people trying to let aid trucks pass through? They were no angels...

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:05

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Kurnugia posted:

how does it matter? venezuelan foreign bank accounts still got seized, which does prevent the importation of goods regardless of the political allegiance of the writer

Venezuelan bank accounts being used to launder the country's money into private foreign accounts were seized. Literally every reference to account seizure in the article is referring to sanctions on individual PDVSA leaders. When you use messages written in bad faith to shape your worldview, you lose track of or discount all the information that doesn't agree with it-because, unsurprisingly, the statements of fact you get are selective.

edit: let me amend- the last reference may be referring to the general sanctions from 2017, but it doesn't help any of the rest of the article.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Feb 22, 2019

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:12

Mean Baby: May 28, 2005

Venezuela is accepting aid from other sources but considering the US is currently gunning for war and attempting to starve the entire country to get the Oil it seems reasonable to not let US weapons into the country.

But only the US has sovereign rights, apparently.

If the US wanted to actually help they wouldn�t be trying to destroy the entire economy and wouldn�t have had an economic blockade for multiple years now.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:18

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

Gozinbulx posted:

Who's lusting for death except you who are victim blaming people who got shot by police. Those people trying to let aid trucks pass through? They were no angels...

Again, not aid, guns. Pretty reasonable to stop trucks full of American guns going into the country.

Honestly, does anyone know if these opposition folks even opened the trucks and looked inside before parading them into the country?

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:19

vincentpricesboner: Sep 3, 2006; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Bob le Moche posted:

https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/1098793888758857729

Aw, you are so naive and innocent, it's adorable

Hmm it seems these people need the aid so bad they are willing to fight and die for it. Maybe that lovely prez should let as much aid as possible in to his starving people

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:21

Labradoodle: Nov 24, 2011; Crax daubentoni

It's pretty stupid to think if the US wanted to smuggle guns, they'd do it using a highly-publicized humanitarian aid convoy, considering how easy it is to get guns within the country or smuggle them in by a dozen other routes. Again, these are arguments people keep ignoring and now you're actually blaming the innocent people who got shot instead of the people who shot them. I'm pretty sure at this point I could show you a video of Maduro shooting a golden retriever puppy in the face and you'd argue the puppy was obviously trying to smuggle guns into the country because of the color of its skin.

Presenting Nipples posted:

Venezuela is accepting aid from other sources but considering the US is currently gunning for war and attempting to starve the entire country to get the Oil it seems reasonable to not let US weapons into the country.

But only the US has sovereign rights, apparently.

If the US wanted to actually help they wouldn’t be trying to destroy the entire economy and wouldn’t have had an economic blockade for multiple years now.

Venezuela accepted a humanitarian aid shipment once last year and then denied they needed any aid at all. Now, as soon as the opposition started to organize a humanitarian aid channel, they're suddenly making a big show of bringing in more food and medicine into the country. It's understandable you're not aware of this since you're apparently misinformed about anything concerning Venezuela in general.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:27

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Again, the only evidence for the gun smuggling claim was a press release from the Maduro government about a seizure of 19 random guns on a plane, a specific category of staged event that Maduro's people are known for falsifying. As other posters have already pointed out, there's really zero reason for the US to smuggle guns into Venezuela. It's nonsensical.

This does illustrate the effectiveness of Maduro's authoritarianism along two axes- the entrenchment of military allies in civil and economic power, and the breadth of utility he's gotten from holding his own people hostage from even themselves.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:28

Pedro De Heredia: May 30, 2006

Kurnugia posted:

how does it matter? venezuelan foreign bank accounts still got seized, which does prevent the importation of goods regardless of the political allegiance of the writer

It matters that the party line in question is factually incorrect.

You are basically saying "trust this article's truth, except the parts that aren't true." Obviously that's not going to convince anyone who disagrees with you.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:29

CAPS LOCK BROKEN: Feb 1, 2006; by Fluffdaddy

Discendo Vox posted:

Again, the only evidence for the gun smuggling claim was a press release from the Maduro government about a seizure of 19 random guns on a plane, a specific category of staged event that Maduro's people are known for falsifying. As other posters have already pointed out, there's really zero reason for the US to smuggle guns into Venezuela. It's nonsensical.

Well, it�s not exactly like the CIA is going to issue a statement demanding the return of their lost guns.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:30

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Discendo Vox posted:

Again, the only evidence for the gun smuggling claim was a press release from the Maduro government about a seizure of 19 random guns on a plane, a specific category of staged event that Maduro's people are known for falsifying. As other posters have already pointed out, there's really zero reason for the US to smuggle guns into Venezuela. It's nonsensical.

how does the reason "we would like to be able to freely distribute guns to our proxies" strike you

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:31

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

Labradoodle posted:

It's pretty stupid to think if the US wanted to smuggle guns, they'd do it using a highly-publicized humanitarian aid convoy, considering how easy it is to get guns within the country or smuggle them in by a dozen other routes. Again, these are arguments people keep ignoring and now you're actually blaming the innocent people who got shot instead of the people who shot them. I'm pretty sure at this point I could show you a video of Maduro shooting a golden retriever puppy in the face and you'd argue the puppy was obviously trying to smuggle guns into the country because of the color of its skin.

Venezuela accepted a humanitarian aid shipment once last year and then denied they needed any aid at all. Now, as soon as the opposition started to organize a humanitarian aid channel, they're suddenly making a big show of bringing in more food and medicine into the country. It's understandable you're not aware of this since you're apparently misinformed about anything concerning Venezuela in general.

Dude you�ve simultaneously said there are guns everywhere in Venezuela for cheap, and also that there is no armed opposition to Maduro despite supposedly widespread discontent with his administration; your arguments don�t make sense and that�s why no one responds.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:32

GoluboiOgon: Aug 19, 2017; by Nyc_Tattoo

Discendo Vox posted:

Venezuelan bank accounts being used to launder the country's money into private foreign accounts were seized. Literally every reference to account seizure in the article is referring to sanctions on individual PDVSA leaders. When you use messages written in bad faith to shape your worldview, you lose track of or discount all the information that doesn't agree with it-because, unsurprisingly, the statements of fact you get are selective.

far more has been siezed than that

https://www.businessinsider.com/venezuela-gold-reserves-frozen-by-bank-of-englandf-2019-2

The Bank of England has refused to give back $1.56 billion in Venezuelan gold after countries around the world say the regime is illegitimate

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:33

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# ? May 21, 2024 21:12

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

Discendo Vox posted:

Again, the only evidence for the gun smuggling claim was a press release from the Maduro government about a seizure of 19 random guns on a plane, a specific category of staged event that Maduro's people are known for falsifying. As other posters have already pointed out, there's really zero reason for the US to smuggle guns into Venezuela. It's nonsensical.

This does illustrate the effectiveness of Maduro's authoritarianism along two axes- the entrenchment of military allies in civil and economic power, and the breadth of utility he's gotten from holding his own people hostage from even themselves.

Independent sources showed it was a CIA linked company making regular flights from the US, and it�s standard protocol during an American overthrow of a democratically elected South American government. The evidence fits.

# ? Feb 22, 2019 16:34

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

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