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What I'm wary of is people going "It's Japan" as if the West is significantly better. A Japanese developer gave us The Missing. I can't even think of a single playable trans protagonist from a western release.
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Feb 23, 2019 00:23
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yeah, the minor issue i took is the idea that atlus appeals to "japan" instead of "bigoted gamer dudes" which are the same and equally pandered to in japan and the west
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Feb 23, 2019 00:25
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I won't say that "the entire nation of Japan is cool with x", because that's dumb as poo poo. There are, however, larger trends and attitudes towards things within ANY society, and when talking about those societies as a whole, I think it's okay to discuss these trends without it painting the whole country as a bunch of bigots. I still think it's something we'll see change over time as younger people with different perspectives take over.
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Feb 23, 2019 00:34
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Roth posted:A Japanese developer gave us The Missing. I can't even think of a single playable trans protagonist from a western release. There probably is, you haven't heard of it cause it's a small indie game like The Missing.
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Feb 23, 2019 00:34
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Roth posted:What I'm wary of is people going "It's Japan" as if the West is significantly better. somepartsareme posted:yeah, the minor issue i took is the idea that atlus appeals to "japan" instead of "bigoted gamer dudes" which are the same and equally pandered to in japan and the west One cool thing about Japan is that they're way more willing to make (and sell) niche things than the West. It's why I like anime and manga, there are lots of...I guess unpopular high-concept pitches? that become things and sometimes those things are really interesting. I agree with you guys there, BTW. I'unno if that was Pat's point, I kinda figured it was just an oversimplification to say what I said - and I stand by that. It's just a bit of a loaded discussion because "It's Japan" has been used to both justify and drat Japanese media way too often.
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Feb 23, 2019 00:38
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Roth posted:What I'm wary of is people going "It's Japan" as if the West is significantly better. One of the playable characters in Technobablyon is trans. In fact, the game has a decent number of LGBT characters in general and handles them extremely well. http://cliqist.com/2015/06/22/lgbt-influences-technobabylon/ (Technobabylon, btw, is incredibly good and worth checking out if you like point-and-click adventures.) Tae posted:There probably is, you haven't heard of it cause it's a small indie game like The Missing. Yeah, pretty much.
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Feb 23, 2019 00:39
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Point being that I just think that a lot of the critiques come across as very White Man's Burden-esque in nature.
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Feb 23, 2019 00:40
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Dias posted:The Rurouni Kenshin dude literally got caught with CP, got fined two grand and is still publishing his manga. You are absolutely correct and I can agree with most of that. I can agree with using media as a lens to see into a culture and get an idea of what they might be like or using to expose yourself. But beyond the fact I think using solely video games to try and analyze what a culture is beyond base level exposure, the ignoring of multiple Japanese games that don't do this poo poo and in some cases treat LGBT characters infinitely better than some western games do is ridiculous. Going "It's Japan" when an Atlus game comes out, but multiple other games come out alongside it and respect their characters much more than Atlus games do comes off as incredibly lovely and lazy to me. It tells me you are oversimplifying a problem that may be bigger than you think it is and might be localized not within the culture, but in the developer/writers. It's especially a really poisonous mentality that I see perpetuate a lot of English speaking sections of the internet and especially here on SA and the fact that Woolie and Pat, who have been to Japan even if they were there as tourists, still loving do it despite the bevy of the media they enjoy is Japanese, is super lovely to me. If you wanna use the media to have a discussion about the culture, that's fine and I can see something worth talking about there. HoboTech posted:I won't say that "the entire nation of Japan is cool with x", because that's dumb as poo poo. There are, however, larger trends and attitudes towards things within ANY society, and when talking about those societies as a whole, I think it's okay to discuss these trends without it painting the whole country as a bunch of bigots. This is fine and if that was your original intent, then I apologize for being reductive and lovely about it. You should probably know though the more bigoted Japanese people tend to be olds and younger people who get asked tend to be generally in favor of LGBT relationships.
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Feb 23, 2019 00:49
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Captain Baal posted:This is fine and if that was your original intent, then I apologize for being reductive and lovely about it. You should probably know though the more bigoted Japanese people tend to be olds and younger people who get asked tend to be generally in favor of LGBT relationships. Yeah, no harm done. It's just difficult to talk about this stuff in a reasonable way without it turning into lovely stereotypes, so I get where you're coming from. edit: nah, jokes need to be funny to be jokes HoboTech fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Feb 23, 2019 |
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Feb 23, 2019 01:06
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Captain Baal posted:You are absolutely correct and I can agree with most of that. I can agree with using media as a lens to see into a culture and get an idea of what they might be like or using to expose yourself. But beyond the fact I think using solely video games to try and analyze what a culture is beyond base level exposure, the ignoring of multiple Japanese games that don't do this poo poo and in some cases treat LGBT characters infinitely better than some western games do is ridiculous. Going "It's Japan" when an Atlus game comes out, but multiple other games come out alongside it and respect their characters much more than Atlus games do comes off as incredibly lovely and lazy to me. It tells me you are oversimplifying a problem that may be bigger than you think it is and might be localized not within the culture, but in the developer/writers. Yeah, instead of looking at games that Atlus- which, where does it even rank on the video game company scale aside from under Capcom, Nintendo and Square-Enix?- puts out which feature an almost requisite moment to poo poo on gay or trans people instead look at the eternal financial superpower that is Dragon Quest and how it A) has the most fantastic man to grace the battlefield; Sylvando, and how a new release is basically declared a new holiday on the spot.
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Feb 23, 2019 01:24
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RareAcumen posted:Yeah, instead of looking at games that Atlus- which, where does it even rank on the video game company scale aside from under Capcom, Nintendo and Square-Enix?- puts out which feature an almost requisite moment to poo poo on gay or trans people instead look at the eternal financial superpower that is Dragon Quest and how it A) has the most fantastic man to grace the battlefield; Sylvando, and how a new release is basically declared a new holiday on the spot. what the gently caress are you talking about lol
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Feb 23, 2019 01:27
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one game has a problem and suddenly hundreds of games from a publisher are ALL transphobic. what the gently caress? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 23, 2019 01:28
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I'm not sure that's what they're saying but also that post is formatted horribly to the point of utter incoherence so who knows.
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Feb 23, 2019 01:30
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RareAcumen posted:Yeah, instead of looking at games that Atlus- which, where does it even rank on the video game company scale aside from under Capcom, Nintendo and Square-Enix?- puts out which feature an almost requisite moment to poo poo on gay or trans people instead look at the eternal financial superpower that is Dragon Quest and how it A) has the most fantastic man to grace the battlefield; Sylvando, and how a new release is basically declared a new holiday on the spot. Sylvando is just coded gay via his flamboyant act, that's already its own issue right there. FF has never had any LGBTQ representation IIRC (is there anything like that in FFXV?), and Nintendo doesn't even touch the stuff. Hell, they didn't even wanna deal with the Bowsettegate.
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Feb 23, 2019 01:31
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Your Parents posted:one game has a problem and suddenly hundreds of games from a publisher are ALL transphobic. what the gently caress? it isn't just one game though, that's why people are looking at it and going "hmm kind of a pattern here"
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Feb 23, 2019 01:31
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Dias posted:and Nintendo doesn't even touch the stuff. Hell, they didn't even wanna deal with the Bowsettegate. Mario can't even get goddamn married! Seriously he's been saving the princess since as long as I've been alive and the most that poor plumbing bastard has gotten is a goddamn CAKE. HoboTech fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Feb 23, 2019 |
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Feb 23, 2019 01:35
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HoboTech posted:Mario can't even get goddamn married! Please support #LetMarioLaySomePipe
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Feb 23, 2019 01:39
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Dias posted:Please support #LetMarioLaySomePipe It's just a dark room with the pipe enter/exit noise playing over and over again.
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Feb 23, 2019 01:43
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I will say that The Missing is pretty dang good and radical. SWERY did his due diligence by consulting with LGBT folk for the game. That being said, I think that for what CSB is and for Pat and Woolie, it was handled as best as it can be. Those two aren’t exactly who I go to for nuance and how they handled it is honestly better than I’d expect from those two especially since at best, woolie keeps his stuff under wraps and pat at worst just kinda irresponsible. They both mean well and I think Pat is doing better especially after Mark Kern. They managed to clear the horrifically low line of “admitting this is kinda hosed up and not ok” which is more than other folk are doing right now. I’d like to see them both grow a bit and maybe research, but that’s just wanting folk you look up towards to keep bettering themselves. Its also worth noting that Japan does have LGBT representation and a growing movement. My Brother’s Husband, My Lesbian Experience With Lonliness came out from Japanese creators working in these spaces last year. Like most cultures, there are nuances that aren’t easy to pick up on from the outside. Watsuki and Vic are good ways to demonstrate this. People like them can happen in any culture and power dynamics, which they both abuse and benefit from, exist.
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Feb 23, 2019 01:51
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Manga has been very good about LGBT representation as of late, which isn't too surprising because I feel like manga is the place where you can get basically any idea you can think of published. Please read Bloom Into You.
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Feb 23, 2019 02:03
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Dias posted:Sylvando is just coded gay via his flamboyant act, that's already its own issue right there. FF has never had any LGBTQ representation IIRC (is there anything like that in FFXV?), and Nintendo doesn't even touch the stuff. Hell, they didn't even wanna deal with the Bowsettegate. I could've swore whoever's making Dragon Quest was part of Square in some capacity. I might be wrong on that part though. I was more talking about how Atlus probably isn't the biggest company in Japan so arguments of how they're making games for a different audience who don't care about LGBTQ issues like a western audience do probably don't have a whole lot of substance since they're not the biggest one in the country to begin with. HoboTech posted:Mario can't even get goddamn married! I still can't believe Mario's only 25.
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Feb 23, 2019 02:11
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Dragon Quest's problems mostly come from its main composer being an imperialist shitheel anyway, entirely different kettle full of yikes.
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Feb 23, 2019 02:14
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Dias posted:Sylvando is just coded gay via his flamboyant act, that's already its own issue right there. FF has never had any LGBTQ representation IIRC (is there anything like that in FFXV?), and Nintendo doesn't even touch the stuff. Hell, they didn't even wanna deal with the Bowsettegate. Apparently there's some trans stuff in Mother 3 that's not handled too well, from my understanding, which is a (presumably) part of the reason it never got localized in the West.
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Feb 23, 2019 02:14
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Dias posted:Sylvando is just coded gay via his flamboyant act, that's already its own issue right there. FF has never had any LGBTQ representation IIRC Vanilla/Fang people will probably hunt you down, I guess.
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Feb 23, 2019 02:17
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RareAcumen posted:I could've swore whoever's making Dragon Quest was part of Square in some capacity. I might be wrong on that part though. I was more talking about how Atlus probably isn't the biggest company in Japan so arguments of how they're making games for a different audience who don't care about LGBTQ issues like a western audience do probably don't have a whole lot of substance since they're not the biggest one in the country to begin with. It's kinda hard to parse what you're trying to say here, but if I understood it correctly, it's in opposition to 4chuds that argue Japan just doesn't care and Atlus' writing is representative of that, right? I just think your examples aren't the greatest if so, because then we move from "bad representation" to "no representation at all". It still supports people saying Japan doesn't care, just from a different angle.
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Feb 23, 2019 02:18
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These dudes can barely parse simple-rear end videogames, why would you expect them to have informed or nuanced takes on social or cultural issues? It's nice to know they're facing the right direction on certain topics but that's pretty much all you should expect.
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Feb 23, 2019 02:23
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Vandar posted:Apparently there's some trans stuff in Mother 3 that's not handled too well I'm watching an LP of the english translation, where the people translating it did the best they could to improve it, and... yeah it's still not great. There's several characters who could at best be described as "dressed in drag", and at worst are terrible stereotypes of trans people. The characters themselves are good people in the game, but the feminine aspects are absolutely meant to be jokes. RareAcumen posted:I still can't believe Mario's only 25. I still can't believe Luigi is John Leguizamo.
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Feb 23, 2019 02:24
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I have one more thing to say about pat and woolie I am personally OFFENDED by their DMC opinions, that's it.
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Feb 23, 2019 02:33
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Dias posted:It's kinda hard to parse what you're trying to say here, but if I understood it correctly, it's in opposition to 4chuds that argue Japan just doesn't care and Atlus' writing is representative of that, right? Scenario: Game comes out from Japan with gross poo poo about LGBTQ people in it and then shitheads defend the parts of it that poo poo on minorities by saying ' Well it's an entirely different culture etc etc' but Atlus isn't even the biggest game company in Japan and those arguments get presented like they're the general consensus for most people there. I don't know if it's a company wide Atlus problem because I only know about this happening in the numbered Persona and Catherine games. So basically people defending the worst parts of games because they like them and don't care about minorities and don't look at anything else like say... literature? Television, political movements, anything besides anime and video games basically.
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Feb 23, 2019 02:35
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New Woolie Will Figure It Out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeA5jj7zd2I Gonna be honest, I thought this was going to be abandoned since CSB has been going well. I'm glad I was wrong though!
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Feb 23, 2019 06:26
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Vandar posted:Apparently there's some trans stuff in Mother 3 that's not handled too well, from my understanding, which is a (presumably) part of the reason it never got localized in the West. Look up the Magypsies. They're supposed to be genderless sage alien things but they all look like men in coats and dresses (or uh, overalls in one case?) and they all talk with hearts every few lines and have a general air of carefree whimsy (that's explained away as them living for so long that they just can't be assed to care about mortal struggles, they just care about their jobs at this point and whatever they find amusing to kill time on) They're insanely good people and are nothing but encouraging to the heroes helping them with their problems, joining your party in some instances and teaching you magic but they're also... flowery to say the least, and are meant to be funny by how out there they can be personality wise. They also raised Kumatora ever since she was a child so they're parental figures to some degree too. There is however a pretty  joke near the start of the game where you meet one in a hot spring and they tell Lucas to awaken his magic he needs to be put in a dangerous situation or something like that- so in a controlled environment the Magypsie decides to hold his head underwater facing away from him to nearly drown him. The screen goes black and there's... a lot of sexual innuendo about enduring it and "just a little more~!" etc
ThisIsACoolGuy fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Feb 23, 2019 |
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Feb 23, 2019 08:07
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There's only one evil Magypsy and it's the only cis-straight-male-presenting one of the bunch. Obviously stereotyping gender-queer people as old men in dresses is pretty garbage in terms of representation, but Mother 3 is also a game about weirdos and outcasts fighting back against jack-booted thugs who demand conformity, so I can't fault it too much. Most of the NPC dialogue about the Magypsies in the early game is about them being a bit mysterious but cool people, it's only after a time skip to when the vaguely fascist army is firmly in control that people start thinking of them as weird and gross. So basically, the Magypsies are designed to make you think "wow these guys are super weird" so it can then turn around and call you an idiot for thinking that because they're the only consistently cool people in the game while the rest of the overtly "normal" people end up perpetuating systems that harm themselves for no real reason other than because hey that's what normal means.
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Feb 23, 2019 16:32
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a cartoon duck posted:There's only one evil Magypsy and it's the only cis-straight-male-presenting one of the bunch. Mother 3 is super good.
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Feb 23, 2019 16:38
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It's also a stereotype that was common around that era(Hell one piece had several too if I remember right), but luckily it seems like the industry is slowly getting better about it looking at how a trans character was handled in Zombie Land Saga(Even if it created a huge shitstorm by assholes hating it) Also speaking of ZLS, I suggest this tweetchain explaining gender and trans views in japan, it explains a lot with how it was handled in Catherine too: https://twitter.com/tropicalesque/status/1066133526146367488 A key thing being ZLS didn't deadname her in the credits while Catherine did. It also shows how important transliterating is compared to translating, especially when handling topics that the originating country doesn't even have words for. This just seems like a problem that will get better once old people leave the industry more and more. Nalesh fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Feb 23, 2019 |
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Feb 23, 2019 18:40
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Nalesh posted:This just seems like a problem that will get better once old people leave the industry more and more. Much like: [Everything]
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Feb 24, 2019 12:09
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Also lol doublepost but I'm playing the Final Fantasy X/X-2 Remaster again and I googled what the deal with the expert sphere grid is to find an explanation, which included this line that cracked me up like an idiot. "It doesn't facilitate Yuna becoming an uber-tank or Wakka some grand wizard." 
Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Feb 24, 2019 |
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Feb 24, 2019 14:49
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What’s stopping that?
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Feb 24, 2019 15:43
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Assumedly that Yuna's at such a loss of HP and HP growth in the first place, that you can put a lot of effort into it, but will never make them like a standout tank character, that sort of thing.
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Feb 24, 2019 15:52
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ConanThe3rd posted:What’s stopping that? Wakka goes by general director now.
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Feb 24, 2019 19:06
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I always wondered if it was possible to fill out the whole sphere grid and how would that effect things like how hard Yuna can hit or something. I remember the last time I played, Yuna ended up being better at magic than Lulu.
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Feb 24, 2019 19:12
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