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silicone thrills
Jan 9, 2008

I paint things
Oh my god.

Caught this on the bird website - Neera Tanden has been defending this trash all night I guess - https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/healthcare/reports/2018/02/22/447095/medicare-extra-for-all/ and wow it only took a quick skim to see that it still ties healthcare choices back to the employer. AND PEOPLE STILL DEFEND IT?!

Why are Americans so broken?

edit: I guess it isnt' trash. It just feels like it's starting low. Like - swing for the fuckin fences if we are going to remake the system.

silicone thrills fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Feb 5, 2019

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Reicere
Nov 5, 2009

Not sooo looouuud!!!
I'm particularly fond of the 6 year delay on full implementation. Got to give successive administrations a chance to sabotage it before people get attached to the idea.

JustJeff88
Jan 15, 2008

I AM
CONSISTENTLY
ANNOYING
...
JUST TERRIBLE


THIS BADGE OF SHAME IS WORTH 0.45 DOUBLE DRAGON ADVANCES

:dogout:
of SA-Mart forever

Willa Rogers posted:

According to the instructions, you only have to formally file for an exemption for a handful of situations but I agree about keeping records.

I came across that while helping someone who had medical bills last year that came to half her gross income, and I told her to keep her medical receipts with her taxes if she's gonna use the exemption form just in case they ever contest.

On the other hand, it was p. easy to get the exemption when you filed for it even under Obama.

I'm hosed in regards to this and I don't know what to do. I had health coverage through my employer in 2017 through May of that year. My job officially ended on 15 May but my health care ran through the 31st. I didn't even try to get anything else because I was in a shite southern state that didn't accept the Medicaid expansion. However at the end of July '17 I moved to another state and that is a solidly "red" state, so I assumed that it didn't opt for the expansion either. It turns out that I was wrong, but I didn't end up signing on to the expansion until July of 2018 because I very literally believed that I couldn't get Medicaid in this lovely state. I was unemployed from when I arrived in this other state from about 29 July until the second half of November. The job that I took was technically full-time and offered insurance, but it the insurance on offer was awful: the monthly premium wasn't terrible but the job paid so poorly that it ate up a huge portion of wages, plus the plan had a huge deductible/excess as well as high out-of-pocket costs and other woeful inadequacies. I changed jobs in February of 2018 and it was the same story there... technically full-time, but horrid benefits that would eat up huge portions of my income for gently caress all coverage. I've been unemployed since 30 April '18 and on Medicaid, which has been great to me and literally saved my life, since about July.

I filed my taxes for 2017 and claimed hardship, but I didn't back it up with anything. I couldn't afford to pay the huge mandate penalty and I assumed that being unemployed half the year counted as harship, but I may have just been grasping at straws due to being broke and not being able to absorb a steep fine for not paying for terrible insurance that does sod all. I was unemployed for 8 out of 12 months of 2018 and on Medicaid for about half the year, and I don't see much choice except to do what you mentioned earlier, Willa, about filing hardship (yet again, for me). Plus, I keep having to not try for jobs because the insurance they offer is awful but the income is high enough to disqualify me from Medicaid and I have a lot of health problems (the state classifies me as "medically frail", so I have access to all Medicaid benefits) and thus have to see a lot of doctors, so taking a job that costs me Medicaid would ruin me financially and healthwise. But, the max income for Medicaid is so low that I can't find jobs whose salary keeps under the threshold.

Of course, America still has the best health care in the world. Apologies if I rambled; I'm half asleep as I write this. If anybody has any advice I'm all ears, but I'm very, very worried - particularly about tax year 2017 but also 2018. I have a feeling that the IRS is going to come back and cut my nuts off, but I only have a few hundred dollars to my name and, well, poverty makes people do stupid things.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




Get yourself better friend, it may not be the answer you want but the IRS is so understaffed they probably aren’t going to audit someone at poverty level cause there’s nothing to gain and it’s a waste of resources.

MadDogMike
Apr 9, 2008

Cute but fanged

JustJeff88 posted:

I'm hosed in regards to this and I don't know what to do. I had health coverage through my employer in 2017 through May of that year. My job officially ended on 15 May but my health care ran through the 31st. I didn't even try to get anything else because I was in a shite southern state that didn't accept the Medicaid expansion. However at the end of July '17 I moved to another state and that is a solidly "red" state, so I assumed that it didn't opt for the expansion either. It turns out that I was wrong, but I didn't end up signing on to the expansion until July of 2018 because I very literally believed that I couldn't get Medicaid in this lovely state. I was unemployed from when I arrived in this other state from about 29 July until the second half of November. The job that I took was technically full-time and offered insurance, but it the insurance on offer was awful: the monthly premium wasn't terrible but the job paid so poorly that it ate up a huge portion of wages, plus the plan had a huge deductible/excess as well as high out-of-pocket costs and other woeful inadequacies. I changed jobs in February of 2018 and it was the same story there... technically full-time, but horrid benefits that would eat up huge portions of my income for gently caress all coverage. I've been unemployed since 30 April '18 and on Medicaid, which has been great to me and literally saved my life, since about July.

I filed my taxes for 2017 and claimed hardship, but I didn't back it up with anything. I couldn't afford to pay the huge mandate penalty and I assumed that being unemployed half the year counted as harship, but I may have just been grasping at straws due to being broke and not being able to absorb a steep fine for not paying for terrible insurance that does sod all. I was unemployed for 8 out of 12 months of 2018 and on Medicaid for about half the year, and I don't see much choice except to do what you mentioned earlier, Willa, about filing hardship (yet again, for me). Plus, I keep having to not try for jobs because the insurance they offer is awful but the income is high enough to disqualify me from Medicaid and I have a lot of health problems (the state classifies me as "medically frail", so I have access to all Medicaid benefits) and thus have to see a lot of doctors, so taking a job that costs me Medicaid would ruin me financially and healthwise. But, the max income for Medicaid is so low that I can't find jobs whose salary keeps under the threshold.

Of course, America still has the best health care in the world. Apologies if I rambled; I'm half asleep as I write this. If anybody has any advice I'm all ears, but I'm very, very worried - particularly about tax year 2017 but also 2018. I have a feeling that the IRS is going to come back and cut my nuts off, but I only have a few hundred dollars to my name and, well, poverty makes people do stupid things.

If it's any consolation there is an affordability exemption if the cost goes over a certain percentage of your income, and if you had insurance available from your employer it uses their cost rather than the one you get from the Marketplace tool. If it was that bad a cost from the employer, you may be exempt from the penalty anyway. Certainly for 2018 you're probably alright; all the months on Medicaid have no penalty and I expect your total income for the year was low enough to trigger the affordability exemption for the other months anyway. So even if they "come back" for you, you may still be OK.

Invalid Validation posted:

Get yourself better friend, it may not be the answer you want but the IRS is so understaffed they probably aren't going to audit someone at poverty level cause there's nothing to gain and it's a waste of resources.

More "anything that can't be electronically audited probably dropped in priority" anyway; think I've seen it said Trump's little forced unpaid vacation may have put them almost a year behind when everything is sorted out. But yeah, even if you get a letter from the IRS don't panic, you may actually be able to claim what I mentioned to avoid actually getting hit. Feel free to drop by the tax thread in Ask/Tell's Business area if you need more free advice that's worth the price ;).

Willa Rogers
Mar 11, 2005


If you filed your 2017 taxes last April, you most likely would have heard back by now if there was an issue with your hardship claim. If you got an extension last year and filed by Oct. 2018, I still wouldn't sweat it.

As I said, even under Obama the exemption was pretty easy to claim, although it did require you to apply for it ahead of filing your taxes. And under Trump, it's gotten even easier; e.g., a matter of filling out Form 8965 and putting the code G (for hardship exemption) in the boxes for each month you didn't have insurance and including it as part of your 2018 taxes. The form doesn't ask for proof or what the hardship exemption was; you can just claim it (although you should keep notes/receipts jic).

And I hear ya on the Medicaid cliff, and the general insanity of a state-by-state fractured public system. We must be the only country in the world that provides healthcare to olds & poors but leaves everyone else to the mercy of unaffordable private insurance, whether employer-provided or purchased on the "marketplace."

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

mastershakeman posted:

So my friend said TurboTax is telling him that using the exchange hosed him. He had 4 months of unemployment with exchange healthcare, then 8 months employed. It calculated his subsidy based on the whole year AGI, so all subsidies he got have to be repaid in full - about 2 grand. For earning income when he wasn't receiving the health insurance since he had private in that period

What a loving mess

Lol at the posters who want the same Serious Smart People who designed this shitpile to write the next industry-approved healthcare bill in 2032 when Democrats are finally in charge again

JustJeff88
Jan 15, 2008

I AM
CONSISTENTLY
ANNOYING
...
JUST TERRIBLE


THIS BADGE OF SHAME IS WORTH 0.45 DOUBLE DRAGON ADVANCES

:dogout:
of SA-Mart forever
I just wanted to say three things:

1) Firstly, thank you for the replies.
2) I'm surprised at how cogent my post was considering that I couldn't keep my eyes open.
3) One reason for my concern is that I slightly underpaid my state tax some years ago and, even though I'd moved across the country, they caught up to me two years later. I had to pay the tax and a tiny penalty. This annoyed me, but I could easily absorb the blow then because I had a passable income. Now I'm facing a bigger potential sum with virtually no income, and it frightens me.

Edit: I wanted to make it clear that my remark about the US health care system was meant very much ironically. It is not only a shitstorm of ridiculously high costs and traps designed to enrich the already rich at the expense of the needy, but it is riddled with perverse incentives such as those that I mentioned.

Rhesus Pieces
Jun 27, 2005

https://twitter.com/kidfears99/status/1093166693415821312?s=21

Humalog hasn’t changed at all, not even the packaging. It’s pure greed and they know they can get away with it.

KingNastidon
Jun 25, 2004

Rhesus Pieces posted:

Humalog hasn’t changed at all, not even the packaging. It’s pure greed and they know they can get away with it.

I really don't understand why there hasn't been simple legislation that limits price increases after 5 or 10 years from launch. Pharma will say that it will lead to higher initial WAC to stay revenue neutral, which is true. But there's really no reasonable justification why a small molecule or even biologic should have increasing COGS over time. I can't imagine a politician arguing that drug prices should increase over time in the face of new technology and competition. This doesn't happen in any other industry and even completely apolitical people can understand that.

The only big downside is that companies would have the incentive to design their clinical trial to maximize patient population at launch vs. standard approach to start with proven subtype or late line of therapy and move broader. This would slow innovation due to bigger trials with longer lengths for initial commercial approval. But still feel the benefit of getting to market first (+ off label use) would supercede need to maximize on label patient population right away.

It'd be nice if democrats put forward this type of stuff in the house over the next year to force republicans to vote against it and show their rear end on healthcare.

Kloaked00
Jun 21, 2005

I was sitting in my office on that drizzly afternoon listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk and reading my name on the glass of my office door: regnaD kciN

Considering that insulin is something that type 1 diabetics need to live, make it so that T1D qualifies someone for Medicare, similar to the Medicare ESRD Program

Azhais
Feb 5, 2007
Switchblade Switcharoo
Considering insulin is so basic why isn't anyone else making a pen?

Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.

Azhais posted:

Considering insulin is so basic why isn't anyone else making a pen?

Humalog and Novolog, manufactured by separate companies, both fill the same role in acting as short-term insulin for taking with meals, and both have pens (pens are amazing compared to vials and syringes)

But it turns out that you make more money by following your competitors upwards in price instead of undercutting them

The health insurance model for insulin, as for doctors, doesn't reward competitors who price competitively, and does reward competitors who raise their prices

KingNastidon
Jun 25, 2004

Devor posted:

Humalog and Novolog, manufactured by separate companies, both fill the same role in acting as short-term insulin for taking with meals, and both have pens (pens are amazing compared to vials and syringes)

But it turns out that you make more money by following your competitors upwards in price instead of undercutting them

The health insurance model for insulin, as for doctors, doesn't reward competitors who price competitively, and does reward competitors who raise their prices

The biggest barrier is biosimilar for biologic vs. generic for small molecule. The biosimilar will never be 100% identical to the original biologic unlike a simple chemical compound, so the FDA would have much more rigorous approval requirements. Potentially up to the point of a large scale Ph3 head-to-head equivalency clinical trial that would be required as if it was a completely new product. And remember the trial would require the biosimilar company to pay for all branded insulin, patient care, etc. in the trial.

That'd be very very costly in a drug with a large patient population + chronic use as long as diabetes. And presumably the margins on the branded product are massive if they've been able increase price many times over, so it would be worth it if the branded price remained constant. But Lily and Novo would likely just cut their price alongside the biosimilar, have existing scale and expertise to always have lower COGS, and always have the advantage in patients/MDs/payers mind at near parity pricing.

So why invest billions in clinical development, manufacturing, office staff, etc. if you run the risk of not getting any share of the market because branded insulin makers can still undercut you? This is an example where a government funded non-profit could just bite the bullet and force Lily and Novos hand.

Azhais
Feb 5, 2007
Switchblade Switcharoo

Devor posted:

Humalog and Novolog, manufactured by separate companies, both fill the same role in acting as short-term insulin for taking with meals, and both have pens (pens are amazing compared to vials and syringes)

But it turns out that you make more money by following your competitors upwards in price instead of undercutting them

The health insurance model for insulin, as for doctors, doesn't reward competitors who price competitively, and does reward competitors who raise their prices

Don't need to tell me, I'm paying ~$150 a month for diabetic care after insurance

silicone thrills
Jan 9, 2008

I paint things
https://www.geekwire.com/2019/providence-st-joseph-health-acquires-seattle-blockchain-startup-helps-hospitals-get-paid/

Do we really loving need another blockchain start up - this time for getting money out of sick people? gently caress America.

Azhais
Feb 5, 2007
Switchblade Switcharoo
In the grand scheme of things I don't know that "Hospital invests in new billing system" is worth that level of vitriol, but you do you.

No Safe Word
Feb 26, 2005

Yeah, blockchain-as-ledger is ... what it does. So it's not like they're shoe-horning blockchain into something like a billion other lovely startups. But, that said, my default position on any new blockchain venture is extreme skepticism until proven otherwise.

Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.

No Safe Word posted:

Yeah, blockchain-as-ledger is ... what it does. So it's not like they're shoe-horning blockchain into something like a billion other lovely startups. But, that said, my default position on any new blockchain venture is extreme skepticism until proven otherwise.

If you can control 51% of the network, you become the Single Payer

That's how that works right

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.
I was surprised to see this doesn't appear to have gotten a mention. To be clear, despite being a Trump appointee, Gottlieb has been the most effective commissioner in decades and has been following through on all of his initiative announcements so far.

KingNastidon
Jun 25, 2004

Discendo Vox posted:

I was surprised to see this doesn't appear to have gotten a mention. To be clear, despite being a Trump appointee, Gottlieb has been the most effective commissioner in decades and has been following through on all of his initiative announcements so far.

I think it's just for all the genuinely good things he's done, Trump has said a lot of misleading or completely false things about drug prices that people can't parse what's real or not. Very little has been done to curb branded drug WAC pricing or price increases, other than companies delaying them to Q1 after the election.

Plus he's made many, many powerful enemies with his opposition to vapes. Not a special interest group you want to cross.

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.
the e-cig regs are actually going pretty well, from what I've heard. It helps that the main parties to e-cig industry are relative newcomers to US law, being principally backed from overseas, and that the OTP is (from what I've heard and seen, it's not my area of focus) staffed at the senior level by people who hate the entire industry and want to feed them into a thresher.

JustJeff88
Jan 15, 2008

I AM
CONSISTENTLY
ANNOYING
...
JUST TERRIBLE


THIS BADGE OF SHAME IS WORTH 0.45 DOUBLE DRAGON ADVANCES

:dogout:
of SA-Mart forever
This is a bit of a subject change, not that I'm stopping anyone from posting in response to other conversations in this thread, but I've run into an issue where Medicaid is very frustrating with its all-or-nothing mentality. I don't want to seem ungrateful as I literally owe Medicaid my life and more, but for over two months I've been on a medication that has proven to be very frustrating. My level of this drug is tested via a blood test every week and, when I first started taking it, my blood level of this drug was too high; this also led to some unpleasant side effects. So, one of my doctors cut my dosage sharply. It was then too low but, despite steadily increasing it bit by bit for weeks now, it doesn't seem to want to go back into a level within the desired range even though I've been very careful and followed physicians' instructions to the letter. This is bad enough, but both my pulmonologist and haematologist agree that a more recent and elegant medication would be more stable, easy to control and effective in the long term. Despite the consensus, there's basically no chance of Medicaid paying for a more modern, reliable solution despite both doctors thinking that what we are doing now is proving to be almost impossible to manage.

What bothers me the most is that I was originally told I should be on this for about six months, yet here we are more than two months later and we still can't get the dosage right. I'm both worried and angry that I will be on this medication for even longer because it just doesn't want to reach and stay at the desired therapeutic level. I really don't want to slag off Medicaid, but most people don't have nearly the problems with this "reliable" old medication as I do and, given the circumstances and the recommendation of two specialists, I feel like a reasonable exception should be made. It's entirely possible that Medicaid forcing us to stay the course will cost them more money in the long run, not to mention giving me more grief, but that's bureaucracy for you.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




That’s probably not completely true, there’s probably something else they can do. Medicare for all isn’t bulletproof, but imagine now you actually work minimum wage and it’s just enough to not be eligible for Medicaid but all you can afford is a catastrophic plan. Oh and your medication isn’t covered so you have to pay 150 dollars a month just on meds.

JustJeff88
Jan 15, 2008

I AM
CONSISTENTLY
ANNOYING
...
JUST TERRIBLE


THIS BADGE OF SHAME IS WORTH 0.45 DOUBLE DRAGON ADVANCES

:dogout:
of SA-Mart forever

Invalid Validation posted:

That’s probably not completely true, there’s probably something else they can do. Medicare for all isn’t bulletproof, but imagine now you actually work minimum wage and it’s just enough to not be eligible for Medicaid but all you can afford is a catastrophic plan. Oh and your medication isn’t covered so you have to pay 150 dollars a month just on meds.

That's where I am now, and it's driving me mad. Every job I can find either pays so little and/or has such erratic hours that it's less than my tiny bit of income on the dole, or it pays juuuust a bit too much so that it would cost me my Medicaid. None of these letter positions come with any decent benefits either, if they have any at all: I would either need to buy a catastrophic plan of the exchange that covers nothing but eats into my crappy salary or take the offered employer plan which also eats into the piss-poor wages but doesn't cover anything either. If I were a healthy person it might be worth trying my luck, but I have so many health problems - the state classified me as "medically frail", after all - that I would be bloody near to signing my own death warrant without it. I know that I slagged off Medicaid below, but all in all it's better than most anything except for plans only people with well above average incomes could afford.

I don't often miss my native UK, especially with the utter tragedy that's about to come, but I bitterly miss the NHS. It's not perfect, but it's a drat sight better than this.

BlondRobin
May 29, 2005

Sssh! Be vewy vewy quiet. It's wabbit season.

JustJeff88 posted:

It’s entirely possible that Medicaid forcing us to stay the course will cost them more money in the long run, not to mention giving me more grief, but that's bureaucracy for you.

I don’t know what medication you’re talking about here but this sounds a lot like warfarin, and in my experience all insurers also absolutely refuse to provide the newer medications that are just functional without needing periodic testing, on account of, well, greed mostly (also because warfarin can be reversed very quickly with vitamin k in case you rapidly need surgery or something.) I don’t know what drug you’re actually talking about, but I don’t know that any other insurance aside from “being rich” would offer better outcomes, fwiw.

Source: my mom and dad both take warfarin and both of their insurance sources, Medicare for my mom and a high-end tech corporation’s policy for my dad, both refuse to provide anything else.

KingNastidon
Jun 25, 2004

BlondRobin posted:

Source: my mom and dad both take warfarin and both of their insurance sources, Medicare for my mom and a high-end tech corporation’s policy for my dad, both refuse to provide anything else.

Is it for an indication which pradaxa, xarelto, or eliquis are approved? Are they on the formulary at all, require step edit / prior auth, or what's the insurance company's rationale for denial? The success of the NOAC class has been aided by both MDs and payers seeing value over warfarin given less monitoring + potential secondary costs of adverse events. Whether the copays are affordable is a separate issue, but assumed they're widely covered.

BlondRobin
May 29, 2005

Sssh! Be vewy vewy quiet. It's wabbit season.

KingNastidon posted:

Is it for an indication which pradaxa, xarelto, or eliquis are approved? Are they on the formulary at all, require step edit / prior auth, or what's the insurance company's rationale for denial? The success of the NOAC class has been aided by both MDs and payers seeing value over warfarin given less monitoring + potential secondary costs of adverse events. Whether the copays are affordable is a separate issue, but assumed they're widely covered.

It isn’t me personally so I don’t know that much, since I don’t manage either of their affairs and they’ve been on the prescriptions for several years, so if insurance attitudes have changed semi recently it could be that they simply haven’t reappraised their medicinal options. My mother was diagnosed with afib seven...? years ago and was temporarily given a newer drug as a series of samples but when time came to actually get a consistent prescription was told the insurance would not cover anything except warfarin. My father has blood clots and was prescribed warfarin, about 3-4 years ago, and commented on the same thing to me at the time, that his insurance refused to cover anything but warfarin. From what I gathered they were basically told “yeah but those drugs are $200 a month, warfarin is cheap so that’s all we’ll cover!” which is the extent of my knowledge.

KingNastidon
Jun 25, 2004

BlondRobin posted:

It isn’t me personally so I don’t know that much, since I don’t manage either of their affairs and they’ve been on the prescriptions for several years, so if insurance attitudes have changed semi recently it could be that they simply haven’t reappraised their medicinal options. My mother was diagnosed with afib seven...? years ago and was temporarily given a newer drug as a series of samples but when time came to actually get a consistent prescription was told the insurance would not cover anything except warfarin. My father has blood clots and was prescribed warfarin, about 3-4 years ago, and commented on the same thing to me at the time, that his insurance refused to cover anything but warfarin. From what I gathered they were basically told “yeah but those drugs are $200 a month, warfarin is cheap so that’s all we’ll cover!” which is the extent of my knowledge.

Generally it will be something like Warfarin is Tier 1 (preferred, cheapest) on formulary and at least one or two of the other drugs on Tier 3 (more expensive). Especially with afib since all are approved for that indication. The doctor may encourage patients to go on the Tier 1 drug based on their perceptions of efficacy vs. cost, but Tier 3 should still be an option if they're willing to put in the leg work for prior auths and all that. Doctors are often just very apathetic and will only tell someone the Tier 1 option is available until they have a reason not to. Saw this play out in the prostate cancer space regarding generic casodex vs. zytiga/xtandi.

This doesn't mean that the out of pocket cost pre or post donut hole will be affordable, but it should be an available option. I'd try to get their insurance/PBM details and look it up in the medicare formulary online.

KingNastidon fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Feb 24, 2019

Morbus
May 18, 2004

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

Reposting this here because USPOL is mostly the Trump Made A Tweet thread.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/28/18192674/medicare-for-all-cost-jacob-hacker

This is a pretty extensive interview with Jacob Hacker, whose work informed the new "Medicare for America" M4A plan. It's one of the plans that has been picking up momentum around the party because it provides universal comprehensive coverage, includes cost controls, but spares private insurance and employer-sponsored plans and has a less "controversial" funding mechanism (that is, it's nicer to donors). This interview is good because Hacker lays out his reasoning pretty clearly without weaseling around, and accurately confronts the realities of upending health care.

I think HR 676 is objectively better, but I've been warming to Medicare for America as a not-terrible solution that I would have been legitimately excited about in 2008.

quote:

No. 3 is you have to be able to finance it. Now, I’m not putting these in order of importance. I once was talking to a seasoned policy expert and he said there are three important things in health care reform: financing, financing, financing.

Health care plans have foundered again and again on the shoals of figuring out where to come up with the money. To me, this is in some ways the biggest argument for a Medicare expansion that isn’t single-payer. Where do you come up with the money if you try to essentially socialize the costs of the most costly medical system in the world? There’s a lot of money going through the employment-based system and other pathways that would suddenly go on the federal ledger.

Bernie Sanders’s own team said their plan would cost about 9 to 10 percent of GDP. I’ve pointed out that the tax increase to fund World War II was about 5 percent. That’s a big number. They’re right that you’re just switching private premiums over into public taxes. But I’m incredulous about the idea that you could actually implement that kind of new tax financing as quickly as would be needed to have a universal Medicare system.

But even if you do a different Medicare expansion, you’ve got financing challenges because you wouldn’t want employers or individuals to pay the full cost of the coverage for two reasons: politics and economics. Politics, there’s going to be a huge backlash. Economics, you want employers to find this an attractive option. You want individuals to feel they’re getting a good deal. So in the Medicare for America plan, employers pay 8 percent of payroll, which is below what most of them would pay for comparable health insurance.

This insane exceptionalist horseshit is refusing to acknowledge the reality that there is no good reason for our healthcare system to be as expensive as it is. The per capita cost of Medicare/Medicaid as they presently exist (i.e. not covering most people) is already equal to or greater than that of the entire NHS. No other advanced economy in the entire world spends nearly as much as we do on healthcare, and a lot of the grossly inflated cost of American healthcare is a direct consequence of it's idiotic, poorly-regulated multi-payer structure. Overall per capita healthcare expenditures in the US are roughly DOUBLE what they are in the UK or most other countries with much better healthcare systems.

Not only is it complete and utter insanity to insist that, for some magic reason, we HAVE to spend so much more than everyone else--refusing to acknowledge the staggering cost savings that we could reap if we just did something akin to everyone else misses one of the main arguments FOR universal healthcare (single payer systems in particular).

All these talking heads are making GBS threads out their mouths about "a bloo hoo hoo how do we paaay for it" while ignoring the fact that if we literally copy/pasted the NHS we would have an immeasurably better healthcare system with zero or close to zero costs at the point of service, while actually saving more than a trillion dollars per year. It is absolutely loving bonkers that nobody is challenging them on this bullshit when single payer systems employed elsewhere offer demonstrably MUCH lower costs while providing demonstrably MUCH better care.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it

Morbus posted:



All these talking heads are making GBS threads out their mouths about "a bloo hoo hoo how do we paaay for it" while ignoring the fact that if we literally copy/pasted the NHS we would have an immeasurably better healthcare system with zero or close to zero costs at the point of service, while actually saving more than a trillion dollars per year. It is absolutely loving bonkers that nobody is challenging them on this bullshit when single payer systems employed elsewhere offer demonstrably MUCH lower costs while providing demonstrably MUCH better care.

It's no more insane to ignore the absolute travesty that is the US healthcare system than it is to think that you can' "copy and paste" the NHS to the United States. It's an utterly silly assumption that ignores the very real obstacles that have made healthcare reform such a Sisyphean task in the post-war era.

KingNastidon posted:

Generally it will be something like Warfarin is Tier 1 (preferred, cheapest) on formulary and at least one or two of the other drugs on Tier 3 (more expensive). Especially with afib since all are approved for that indication. The doctor may encourage patients to go on the Tier 1 drug based on their perceptions of efficacy vs. cost, but Tier 3 should still be an option if they're willing to put in the leg work for prior auths and all that. Doctors are often just very apathetic and will only tell someone the Tier 1 option is available until they have a reason not to. Saw this play out in the prostate cancer space regarding generic casodex vs. zytiga/xtandi.

This doesn't mean that the out of pocket cost pre or post donut hole will be affordable, but it should be an available option. I'd try to get their insurance/PBM details and look it up in the medicare formulary online.

It's always worth trying a prior auth; I've gotten lucky in the past.

Azhais posted:

Don't need to tell me, I'm paying ~$150 a month for diabetic care after insurance

I pay close to that much in post-transplant care (~$75 in Rx copay/mo + 4x/yearly labs that end up coinsuring at about $200/ea, so a bout $140/mo averaged over a 12 month year.

Kommienzuspadt fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Feb 25, 2019

Accretionist
Nov 7, 2012
I BELIEVE IN STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORIES

Kommienzuspadt posted:

the very real obstacles

What did you have in mind?

I think area's over-stated. For the most part, we're pretty consolidated:





zonohedron
Aug 14, 2006


Accretionist posted:

What did you have in mind?

I think area's over-stated. For the most part, we're pretty consolidated

That suggests that the people in the frontier counties, as Public Law 94-171 apparently calls them, don't really matter. It also suggests that because "Texas Triangle" and "Front Range" are both population centers they can be treated identically, which is almost-certainly not the case.

JustJeff88
Jan 15, 2008

I AM
CONSISTENTLY
ANNOYING
...
JUST TERRIBLE


THIS BADGE OF SHAME IS WORTH 0.45 DOUBLE DRAGON ADVANCES

:dogout:
of SA-Mart forever
The biggest problem is that so-called leaders aren't working towards finding the best solution for America. They're either trying to protect the interests of their rich friends, forwarding their sociopathic "Bootstraps!" agendas, concern trolling in order to not have to do hard work yet keep their positions or covering everything with smokescreens like border walls, shutdowns and states of emergency, none of which are in the slightest way justified.

I can respect someone who means well, works hard and fucks up with the best intentions and efforts, but there's no excuse for being disingenuous, uninformed, apathetic or merciless.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it

Accretionist posted:

What did you have in mind?


Where do you want to start?

Geographic distribution certainly is one, but I am thinking mostly about the bread-and-butter issues that make basically of the legislative branch of the federal gov't deeply ineffective in the modern era.

Just a few that spring to mind immediately:

1. Good old fashioned corruption that enables/institutionalizes the exploitative vulture capitalism MO of the modern medical industry (e.g. how the ACA became essentially a massive handout to the private insurance/healthcare industry)

2. The social/cultural views about healthcare that have made it so difficult to frame healthcare as a human right to many Americans

3. Significant logistical challenges facing US healthcare today that are independent of its funding structure (e.g. aging population, shortage of providers, etc)

4. Restructuring the salary and training structure of healthcare providers to make it fiscally sustainable in a single payer system (e.g. reducing the cost of healthcare profession training so that healthcare providers can afford to take a lower salary)

5. Restructuring the pharmaceutical industry so it can both continue to make drugs while subsidizing R&D for new drugs in the pipeline, or or a creating a public alternative that is similarly productive and sustainable (If a public alternative is preferable, add the political challenge of its creation to the list)

etc.

There are many, many advantages to the single payer system, and the travesty of the US healthcare system makes the NHS or similar an undeniably appealing alternative. However, no matter what argument there is to be made, we still live in the USA and have to deal with the cards in our hand. This involves finding specific solutions to specific problems.

Even something like "expanding Medicare eligibility to all US citizens" is a better start, because there is a social context and existing institutional structure that you can use to put that proposal into solid ground. It doesn't address a lot of other huge, important issues (e.g. how hospitals will restructure costs in the setting of 100% of their bills being reimbursed at the medicare rate) but it is at least a more concrete, reality-based proposal than to "copy and paste" the NHS, which is about as realistic as Lithuana's ability to "copy and paste" Silicon Valley/the US tech industry in Vilnius.

Accretionist
Nov 7, 2012
I BELIEVE IN STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORIES

zonohedron posted:

That suggests that the people in the frontier counties, as Public Law 94-171 apparently calls them, don't really matter. It also suggests that because "Texas Triangle" and "Front Range" are both population centers they can be treated identically, which is almost-certainly not the case.

I'm coming at this from a different direction.

An argument I commonly see is:
  • Current system costs $X
  • UHC would cover everyone, therefore cost me more
  • *squints at 'cost savings' argument based on cross-country comparisons*
  • UHC can't possibly save money, look at how much more area we have

If we're mostly consolidated, we're mostly in the assumed 'high efficiency' context.
If we're mostly consolidated, there's only so many people in the assumed 'low efficiency' context.

I was just guessing at what that goon was getting at because they were non-specific.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it

JustJeff88 posted:

The biggest problem is that so-called leaders aren't working towards finding the best solution for America. They're either trying to protect the interests of their rich friends, forwarding their sociopathic "Bootstraps!" agendas, concern trolling in order to not have to do hard work yet keep their positions or covering everything with smokescreens like border walls, shutdowns and states of emergency, none of which are in the slightest way justified.

Honestly I think this is probably the biggest problem with US healthcare and really all of US society at large; it's the same force driving equally dramatic and disproportionate increases in the cost of education and housing, too. Until we purge our society of that influence I doubt that we will see meaningful reform in the way that we fund and provide healthcare to American citizens.

SpartanIvy
May 18, 2007
Hair Elf
Haven't seen it commented on yet but I saw on CNN that Anthem was mailing checks for treatment in the amounts of hundreds of thousands of dollars directly to patients to pay with instead of to their doctors.

The doctors are of course suing because it means they have to collect and in some cases people just gently caress off with the money. The real outrage is people are seeing how much they're actually paying for stuff.

Honestly I love it.

E: article https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/03/01/health/anthem-insurance-payments-patients-eprise/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

Spacewolf
May 19, 2014
I don't. These are folks in, or just out of, rehab. That much money for someone clean and sober is a recipe for disaster. For someone who isn't, it could literally kill them.

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Freakazoid_
Jul 5, 2013


Buglord
What's to stop the patient from investing $130,000 in cash instead? Worst case years down the line the wage garnishment and the investment cancel each other out. Best case your debt is written off and the money is all yours.

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