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uninterrupted posted:Still an illegal invasion. Also the US celebrates Columbus Day and that dude wasn’t fantastic to real Americans. Wait, so restoring someone who was overthrown is an 'illegal' invasion?!
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Feb 23, 2019 01:27
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Pharohman777 posted:Wait, so restoring someone who was overthrown is an 'illegal' invasion?! What do you people think gives one country the right to invade another? It’s a stunning admission of the moral bankruptcy of the pro-US-coup that “we don’t like them!” is an acceptable reason to go to war, especially one that was as universally condemned as the invasion of Grenada.
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Feb 23, 2019 01:42
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self-determination of any sort is a rueful thing in the hands of a lesser nation, best to enlighten them with fire and puppet shows. yet they remain ungreatful of his works, such is the plight of the civilized man.
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Feb 23, 2019 03:34
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"Vice President" Delcy has stated that the border with Colombia is now closed: https://twitter.com/DrodriguezVen/status/1099128141111537664 Meanwhile, the troops tasked with actually enforcing that appear to be indifferent at best: https://twitter.com/AKurmanaev/status/1099130266763886592 https://twitter.com/AKurmanaev/status/1099131056018649088
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Feb 23, 2019 03:44
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CIA broke this guys brain. Off to the Gulag!
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Feb 23, 2019 03:53
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Private Witt posted:"Vice President" Delcy has stated that the border with Colombia is now closed: The PSUV's embrace of Kim Il-Sung Thought comes at a rather questionable time.
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Feb 23, 2019 03:58
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Guaido said that the Venezuelan army helped him cross into Colombia:quote:The question is: how did we arrive here [in Colombia] today, when they [the government] ordered the closure of airspace, prohibited all types of maritime travel, and blockaded the roads (...) we are here precisely because the armed forces also participated in this process. Guaido could be bluffing, but I find it hard to believe that he made it all the way from Caracas to the border without being spotted.
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Feb 23, 2019 04:26
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https://twitter.com/AnaVHerrero/status/1099043887451197442
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Feb 23, 2019 05:55
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Predict-It at 70% that Maduro doesn't last this year.
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Feb 23, 2019 05:56
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drawkcab si eman ym posted:Predict-It at 70% that Maduro doesn't last this year. « Doesn’t last » In terms of power or in terms of Louis XVI?
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Feb 23, 2019 06:02
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Saladman posted:« Doesn’t last » In terms of power or in terms of Louis XVI? He's out of office by 12/31/19
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Feb 23, 2019 06:04
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Honestly, I'm kind of low-key terrified that things are so bad in venezuela that a Abrams-led looting of the country will actually dramatically improve things in the short term and it will become a breathlessly-repeated talking point in the mainstream "consensus" that see, the us can do good with guns and capitalism.
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Feb 23, 2019 07:00
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A big flaming stink posted:Honestly, I'm kind of low-key terrified that things are so bad in venezuela that a Abrams-led looting of the country will actually dramatically improve things in the short term and it will become a breathlessly-repeated talking point in the mainstream "consensus" that see, the us can do good with guns and capitalism. I mean, I'm hoping the opposition (if/when it takes power) can get the country Chuck Boone posted:Guaido said that the Venezuelan army helped him cross into Colombia: it's basically impossible to get good info on the topic atm, i'm taking that NYT thing with a grain of salt buuuuuut at the same time, low troop morale sounds plausible plus what you say about Guaido
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Feb 23, 2019 07:09
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A big flaming stink posted:Honestly, I'm kind of low-key terrified that things are so bad in venezuela that a Abrams-led looting of the country will actually dramatically improve things in the short term and it will become a breathlessly-repeated talking point in the mainstream "consensus" that see, the us can do good with guns and capitalism. as the example of Iraq and Libya demonstrates, you get a solid 6-12 months of good feeling while everyone's celebrating the ability to kick the poo poo out of the people who used to be kicking the poo poo out of them, and while the new bosses can still make the excuses "hey, we're new at this" and then, what happens next happens
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Feb 23, 2019 07:20
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I mean, I'm hoping the opposition (if/when it takes power) can get the country I'm usually pretty darn optimistic, but short term, the best a transition government will do is attend to the humanitarian crisis. Venezuela was already looted and will continue to be, even in the best of circumstances. I do believe we're nearing a change in government though, so I'm hoping for the best. I've been posting in these threads for almost seven years now I think. When I started, Chavez was loved by everyone and change came slowly but surely. Back then, most of us were just as rabid anti-Chavez as we are now, but I don't think any of us imagined the depths to which these fuckers would sink to hold on to power. Back then I think only a couple of Venezuelan posters had emigrated. Now almost all of us have left the country and the funny thing is that in almost eight years, the debate has barely shifted. For some people, this entire episode of dictatorship in Venezuela has always been about the US, and in their ignorance, they will never know any better.
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Feb 23, 2019 07:25
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:as the example of Iraq and Libya demonstrates, you get a solid 6-12 months of good feeling while everyone's celebrating the ability to kick the poo poo out of the people who used to be kicking the poo poo out of them, and while the new bosses can still make the excuses "hey, we're new at this" ZP you're a giant rear end in a top hat who doesn't have nearly enough compassion for posters here from venezuela that are desperate for something, anything, even US intervention in latin america because the status quo is literally killing them but when you're right, you're right 
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Feb 23, 2019 07:33
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Labradoodle posted:I'm usually pretty darn optimistic, but short term, the best a transition government will do is attend to the humanitarian crisis. Venezuela was already looted and will continue to be, even in the best of circumstances. I do believe we're nearing a change in government though, so I'm hoping for the best. genuinely, here's hoping some twist of fate prevents us from having been right about that. because hooooleeeee poo poo does the most likely form of you guys becoming an arm of american domestic politics suck rear end
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Feb 23, 2019 07:34
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Labradoodle posted:I'm usually pretty darn optimistic, but short term, the best a transition government will do is attend to the humanitarian crisis. Venezuela was already looted and will continue to be, even in the best of circumstances. I do believe we're nearing a change in government though, so I'm hoping for the best. yeah unfortunately there's no switch a new government could flip to just turn the oil spigot on again. Getting oil production back up to Chavez era highs could easily take a decade, nor is there any easy fix to the entrenched corruption. Worse, fixing the economy probably means enacting changes that are going to hurt people in the short term. I mean its obvious the oil subsidies are idiotic, but try convincing anyone of that after you've reversed it and multiplied the cost of their commute. Fixing those problems is going to be unpopular and if managed badly could cause awful shocks to the people.
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Feb 23, 2019 08:23
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the alternative to Maduro will be 100% absolutely worse, and everything can get worse, and the long and wide hand of the US state will ensure it will be hell.
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Feb 23, 2019 08:26
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:and then, what happens next happens ISIS gets a new caliphate.
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Feb 23, 2019 09:03
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It's shaping up to be a very long day. The first clashes appear to be happening in the border town of Ureña. There, National Guard soldiers are stopping people from crossing the bridge into Colombia to help bring aid into Venezuela: https://twitter.com/maibortpetit/status/1099281246381920256 https://twitter.com/StePozzebon/status/1099272783710834688 People are also already on the Simon Bolivar International Bridge trying to get to Colombia. These protesters are singing the national anthem: https://twitter.com/ConflictsW/status/1099282068717137927 EDIT: A journalist named Stefano Pozzebon whose work is generally very good suggests that the people trying to enter Colombia this morning are local residents who work across the border. I think he's basing that claim on the fact that in this very short clip a man appears to be saying something like "You're not letting us work". But, if that's all he's basing that statement on, I'm not too convinced, since by "work" the man could mean "go across the border to bring humanitarian aid back into Venezuela", for example. EDIT 2: I think this video shows a Venezuelan soldier defecting into Colombia this morning. The video was taken from the Colombian side of the Simon Bolivar International Bridge. At the start of the video you see people running away from two National Guard trucks that sped into Colombia just moments earlier, I think. At the end of the video, you see a Venezuelan soldiers running past the barricades into Colombia. A man raises his arms in the air in celebration, and the soldier raises his rifle with both hands into the air: https://twitter.com/BarbaraUSanz/status/1099279358554976256 EDIT 3: These are the three soldiers who defected. I'm seeing reports that a fourth soldier defected in the same event: https://twitter.com/RCamachoVzla/status/1099284121686294529 Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Feb 23, 2019 |
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Feb 23, 2019 13:19
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It's also shaping up to be axectly what US was looking to accomplish with the aid charade, so good job Maduro on that front as well. Couldn't just have taken the food and put in supermarkets for a laugh
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Feb 23, 2019 13:28
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:as the example of Iraq and Libya demonstrates, you get a solid 6-12 months of good feeling while everyone's celebrating the ability to kick the poo poo out of the people who used to be kicking the poo poo out of them, and while the new bosses can still make the excuses "hey, we're new at this" Don't you think Venezuela has a better chance of recovery after a regime change because the country was ran well as little as 10 years ago? Compared to Iraq and Libya which were hell holes for years and years.
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Feb 23, 2019 13:40
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Kurnugia posted:It's also shaping up to be axectly what US was looking to accomplish with the aid charade, so good job Maduro on that front as well. Couldn't just have taken the food and put in supermarkets for a laugh What, put the aid in Colombian supermarkets?
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Feb 23, 2019 13:45
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I've been seeing reports that four soldiers defected, but the clip in my previous post only showed three. I think this video shows a forth. He's just out of view surrounded by a crowd as he walks into Colombia. This happened on another bridge, which is why we didn't see him with the other three soldiers: https://twitter.com/ConflictsW/status/1099288026000355328 EDIT: Yes, this was a fourth defection. Here's the soldier walking into Colombia: https://twitter.com/MaihenH/status/1099289416907087874 EDIT: Here's the TeleSur take: https://twitter.com/telesurenglish/status/1099291108599836673 Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Feb 23, 2019 |
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Feb 23, 2019 13:49
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Proud of the soldiers not putting up with sick orders to start shooting at their own friends and families.
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Feb 23, 2019 14:04
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Whatever the outcome of this complete mess, I hope somehow the lives of ordinary citizens are improved. But that seems a slim hope, really; there's no switch to flip to make everything start working again. Maybe I should just hope that things don't become too chaotic. Good luck to everyone down there and stay safe.
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Feb 23, 2019 14:08
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I'm irrationally hopeful the border blocks melt and food aid gets in, brought by the locals pitching in directly. No military involved.
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Feb 23, 2019 14:11
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Holy smokes. TeleSur is claiming that the three soldiers who defected into Colombia this morning together (a fourth one defected alone across another bridge) were "terrorists" pretending to be soldiers, and that the defection is a "false flag" event. TeleSur: not even once. Here's another clip of the defe--err, false flag right wing terrorist psy-op misinformation event TeleSur is referring to: https://twitter.com/VozFHEucatense/status/1099293061329416195
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Feb 23, 2019 14:17
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Just a reminder to everyone that this border standoff is intended by the us state dept to a spark a violent incident that gives it an excuse to escalate its involvement. All of this wonderful aid could have been distributed in coordination with the red cross with no risk whatsoever. You know, the United States could have just given twenty million dollars to the ICRC Caracas delegation. Of course, the sanctions/embargo/asset seizures are literally a hundred times more harmful to venezuela than twenty million is helpful.
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Feb 23, 2019 14:22
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Just a reminder to everyone that this border standoff is intended by the us state dept to a spark a violent incident that gives it an excuse to escalate its involvement. yeah and Maduro walked right into it even though it was completely obvious from the start and everyone knew it and said so
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Feb 23, 2019 14:23
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Kurnugia posted:yeah and Maduro walked right into it even though it was completely obvious from the start and everyone knew it and said so It might just be me, but I'm beginning to think he might not be a very good president.
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Feb 23, 2019 14:28
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Just a reminder to everyone that this border standoff is intended by the us state dept to a spark a violent incident that gives it an excuse to escalate its involvement. It's not that simple. Maduro has blocked humanitarian aid organizations from receiving humanitarian aid in the past. As in, aid agencies have organized the reception of humanitarian aid from abroad, and the regime has stopped that aid from entering the country. Giving any organization X amount of money is no guarantee that aid will make it into the country because Maduro just doesn't feel like letting it in. The reason for this is that for years, the regime has denied that there was a humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. It's exactly the same reason why they're not letting this aid in. To admit that Venezuela needs aid would be to admit that Maduro, and possibly chavismo, have been a failure that has destroyed the country. Only in the past two weeks or so has the regime started to maybe soften that stance, given all the pressure that it's come under thanks to the efforts of the Venezuelan people and the opposition. Again, just because you're not aware of something doesn't mean it hasn't happened. EDIT: Here's a live stream from VivoPlay, which has at least two camera crews on the border with Colombia. Right now they're showing clashes between National Guard soldiers and protesters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpdIVZ-isdk Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Feb 23, 2019 |
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Feb 23, 2019 14:29
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Chuck Boone posted:It's not that simple. Sure, but you do also want to give them space and let them surrender on their own terms once they've started wavering rather than forcing the issue, unless you really want to establish an international precedent of exchanging food aid for regime change ahead of the looming mid-century climate catastrophe. Abrams and company's actions affect far more people than just the Venezuelans.
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Feb 23, 2019 14:38
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Mozi posted:Whatever the outcome of this complete mess, I hope somehow the lives of ordinary citizens are improved. But that seems a slim hope, really; there's no switch to flip to make everything start working again. Maybe I should just hope that things don't become too chaotic. Good luck to everyone down there and stay safe. Don't hope, Venezuela is hosed. I'm a card carrying communist that wishes that maduro and it's cronies would die in a fire , but again: this is a article about the IMF intervening, in 2017 If this was a part of a intervention/pressure of latam countries to find a negotiated solution things could be less hosed, maybe. Having the attention of the US is like having the loving eye of sauron on you. Antifa Poltergeist fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Feb 23, 2019 |
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Feb 23, 2019 14:38
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Darth Walrus posted:Sure, but you do also want to give them space and let them surrender on their own terms once they've started wavering rather than forcing the issue, unless you really want to establish an international precedent of exchanging food aid for regime change ahead of the looming mid-century climate catastrophe. Abrams and company's actions affect far more people than just the Venezuelans. Sure. But my point was that "why not just give X agency money to bring food in" wouldn't necessarily work because Maduro has explicitly blocked this from happening more than once in the past.
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Feb 23, 2019 14:39
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:All of this wonderful aid could have been distributed in coordination with the red cross with no risk whatsoever. You know, the United States could have just given twenty million dollars to the ICRC Caracas delegation. This is not true. This is very, very, very far from being true. Accepting food & medicine humanitarian aid would betray the fact that they can no longer afford food & medicine, so to maintain the illusion, Venezuela has largely refused this aid. And lest you think I am making that up, let's quote the minister of health, "No way are we going to allow this right-wing to impose a supposed humanitarian aid when our people are already being tended to by President Maduro." That quote is from December of 2017. This amidst a human tragedy where hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans are arriving hungry & penniless into Colombia and Brazil. Where people are dying in the country due to a lack of the most basic of medicines. Where eradicated diseases are recurring. And as a reminder, refusing humanitarian aid is a war crime. A war crime when there isn't even a war going on. Which should really cement in your mind just how evil Maduro is. He is truly a psychotic piece of human poo poo.
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Feb 23, 2019 15:01
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Chuck Boone posted:Sure. The current situation at the same time is almost certainly going to increase the chance for more incidents to happen. You can argue it is a necessary sacrifice but it is what it is. Also, it is unclear also where the aid is going to go if it gets smuggled in considering they are de jure illegal shipments. Also, if the US doesn't recognize the current government as legitimate, would the US even hand over shipments to the government at this point if they were willing? (An honest question here) Btw, the Maduro government has been is both criminally incompetent and corrupt (it isn't an ideological issue), but there is a quite a bit going on that isn't a question about Maduro at this point.
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Feb 23, 2019 15:09
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Ardennes posted:The current situation at the same time is almost certainly going to increase the chance for more incidents to happen. You can argue it is a necessary sacrifice but it is what it is. Also, it is unclear also where the aid is going to go if it gets smuggled in considering they are de jure illegal shipments. Yes, I agree with you. But my original point was that anyone who thinks that the solution to this issue is as simple as sending money to an aid organization based in Venezuela money is mistaken, because the regime has blocked aid organizations based in Venezuela from receiving aid in the pat. I don't know that the US would hand over aid to the Venezuelan government. Ideally, they'd hand it over to the Red Cross... but then the Red Cross would have to bring it into Venezuela, and we'd be in exactly the same situation that we are today: aid outside the country, and the Venezuelan government saying that it won't allow it to come in because, to quote Maduro, "we're not beggars". EDIT: As the morning unfolds we're seeing larger crowds of protesters forming, this one in the border town of Ureña: https://twitter.com/amandasanchezc/status/1099311855389102085 https://twitter.com/amandasanchezc/status/1099313834987274240 Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Feb 23, 2019 |
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Feb 23, 2019 15:31
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Chuck Boone posted:Yes, I agree with you. But my original point was that anyone who thinks that the solution to this issue is as simple as sending money to an aid organization based in Venezuela money is mistaken, because the regime has blocked aid organizations based in Venezuela from receiving aid in the pat. It is why I think there is a bit of gray here, since Maduro has also accepted some shipments, obviously just not nearly as much as he should. The issue, of course, is the US specifically making the aid even more politicized than it is already, it has very possibly made the situation worse (it depends on what happens since everything is in flux). To be fair here, I don't really think any government is going willingly going to allow to travel through what it considers illegal channels (and it doesn't necessarily have to be arms etc). Also, I don't think the Live Aid concert was a wise idea either, and at least to me seems like a stunt that doesn't really solve anything. It didn't need to me right on the border (with obvious parallels of the Cold War). Obviously, the broader issue is economic and how far the US will isolate both the regime but effectively the country itself from international trade and credit. The regime itself arguably is more or less in siege mode. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Feb 23, 2019 |
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Feb 23, 2019 15:43
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