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Tsyni posted:Let's have a referendum! Someone post monsefmath.jpg
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Feb 24, 2019 03:03
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As long as it's not another effort towards proportional representation. Parties who can't get elected in a single riding should't have elected members. Also, computers overcome the reasons for not doing ranked ballots.
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Feb 24, 2019 04:14
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Maneck posted:It's not wrong through? Yeah while I'm completely in favour of ousting the neoliberals from the NDP and replacing them with ACTUAL socialists that want to solve actual problems, I don't think that electing the party that held a literal book burning and previously won because Stephen Harper campaigned against gay marriage and only miraculously reneged on that promise is the answer. Like I know there's a lot of "nothing matters" and "the ends justify the means" people rolling around right now but as a gay man trying to help his boyfriend escape the united state can we not loving give the conservatives more power even for epic irony points
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Feb 24, 2019 04:14
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Sorry I'm not actually directing my anger at anyone in the thread but I'm drunk and gay and angry and god loving dammit the NDP are so inept and useless and poo poo right now that they're handing this election to the PC god loving dammit the truth just makes me angrier.
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Feb 24, 2019 04:23
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look at the bright side
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Feb 24, 2019 04:33
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Maneck posted:As long as it's not another effort towards proportional representation. Parties who can't get elected in a single riding should't have elected members. Also, computers overcome the reasons for not doing ranked ballots. Seems to work fine in Germany.
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Feb 24, 2019 04:42
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Maneck posted:As long as it's not another effort towards proportional representation. Parties who can't get elected in a single riding should't have elected members. Also, computers overcome the reasons for not doing ranked ballots. drat those parties that get broad support across the province/country! They should only pander to people in select areas to be elected. The BC provincial election had 300k votes for the Greens to get 3 seats. 750k votes each got the BC liberals and NDP each have over 40 seats. Yup totally fair representation for the Greens.
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Feb 24, 2019 05:16
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Maneck posted:As long as it's not another effort towards proportional representation. Parties who can't get elected in a single riding should't have elected members. Also, computers overcome the reasons for not doing ranked ballots. "ranked ballots favour centrist parties at the expense of proportionality" thank you computer for solving that problem
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Feb 24, 2019 05:48
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Chillyrabbit posted:drat those parties that get broad support across the province/country! They should only pander to people in select areas to be elected. I am personally biased it towards the (completely unrealistic) concept of voting for the individual running rather than a party, and so I really like ranked ballots. In my last municipal election, there were four candidates with very similar positions and one outlier. I was terrified he was going to win by splitting 70% of the votes amongst four reasonable candidates whose views were the polar opposite of his. By fortune the outlier lost, but it was a painfully obvious example of why ranked ballots (so you can do "anyone but this guy") are voter enabling. Also, I checked your numbers. The votes were 796,000 and 795,000 for the Liberals and NDP respectively, and you chose to round them down to 750,000 to make your argument look better. Bad form. 
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Feb 24, 2019 05:53
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Maneck posted:I am personally biased it towards the (completely unrealistic) concept of voting for the individual running rather than a party, and so I really like ranked ballots. In my last municipal election, there were four candidates with very similar positions and one outlier. I was terrified he was going to win by splitting 70% of the votes amongst four reasonable candidates whose views were the polar opposite of his. By fortune the outlier lost, but it was a painfully obvious example of why ranked ballots (so you can do "anyone but this guy") are voter enabling. There are PR systems that still preserve voting for the individual, it doesn't have to be pure party lists. MMP nearest-loser, which is the best voting system, works exactly like that. You vote for the person you like best in your riding. If they win your riding they enter Parliament. Then you look at total votes across the province or country and see who's under- and over-represented by winning FPTP races. Then you top up the underrepresented parties by bringing in their candidates who came closest to winning, until the seat numbers are proportional. Boom, suddenly you have a proportionally-allocated parliament where every member still had to run a campaign and get a good number of votes in a riding race. The big problem with ranked ballots is that it hugely favours centrist candidates and parties because everybody puts them as their second choice so they always win. Sure, maybe you shut out the extremist guy you really don't like, but you also shut out everyone else including the person you probably wanted, because the Liberals are everybody's second choice so they win every race where someone else doesn't get 51% on the first ballot.
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Feb 24, 2019 05:58
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In practice though, how different would it be in terms of legislation passed from a proportional system? Sure, in PR your favoured party has seats in parliament, but it's overwhelmingly likely it's going to be a minority government where they need to be collaborating with centrist parties to get anything done. There was a RadioLab episode on the Irish system and it seemed interesting - it's ranked choice but with multiple members per riding - I'd imagine you get something closer to proportionality if multiple members can be elected in a ranked system.
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Feb 24, 2019 13:01
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enki42 posted:In practice though, how different would it be in terms of legislation passed from a proportional system? Sure, in PR your favoured party has seats in parliament, but it's overwhelmingly likely it's going to be a minority government where they need to be collaborating with centrist parties to get anything done. Even if deals will still have to be struck with centrists to get anything done, it's better for that deal-making to happen semi-publicly rather than behind closed doors internal to the party itself. Ireland appears to use single transferrable vote, and while I like the system overall, it does have some problems in the Canadian context and it would have to be adapted to suit Canada better. Consider that, with multiple members per riding, ridings would necessarily have to increase in size. With the extremely low population density and huge ridings we already have in the north, this could conceivably lead to certain areas having virtually no guaranteed representation at all. It would almost certainly, therefore, have to be balanced with a certain number of guaranteed seats for northern and remote ridings to ensure semi-local representation for ridings in the north.
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Feb 24, 2019 13:13
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enki42 posted:In practice though, how different would it be in terms of legislation passed from a proportional system? Sure, in PR your favoured party has seats in parliament, but it's overwhelmingly likely it's going to be a minority government where they need to be collaborating with centrist parties to get anything done. How different is it to have multiple parties horse-trading versus having one centrist party with a near-permanent majority? Just look at the difference in Canada between Liberal minority and Liberal majority governments. Liberal minorities gave us medicare, the CPP, the 40-hour workweek, mandatory vacation time, and the minimum wage, because they had to go to the left to get support to stay in power. Liberal majorities frequently refuse to follow through on their promises even when they were central planks of their electoral platforms, like Trudeau's electoral reform or Chretien/Martin's national daycare. They do awful things like buy pipelines that would probably never fly under a minority situation. They're also regularly plagued by corruption scandals, whether it's the sponsorship scandal or SNC Lavalin. I would take a minority government that has to horse-trade and ends up in the centre over a majority government with the power to do whatever it wants any day. Another feature that's often forgotten in considering electoral reform in Canada is that our country is constitutionally divided into provinces and regions with guaranteed representation in the House, so even a pure party-list PR system would have to be divided by province. So any potential electoral reform has to be able to be done province-by-province or it doesn't work at all, which already rules out some of the PR systems people are wary of, like having one huge list with 338 names on it.
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Feb 24, 2019 14:31
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shades of eternity posted:He cheezed off both the dwarves and the elves in the west, and Mordor is rising in the east. Did you just call Quebec loving Mordor 
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Feb 24, 2019 14:50
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lol hey guys remember how I've posted in here a couple times about that really lovely 2015 report that said the Trans Mountain Pipeline would print money forever, and how none of its assumptions are any good? Turns out that's the one report the NEB has relied on to once again rubber-stamp the pipeline expansion. quote:After a federal court struck down the project’s original approval because it failed to consider the impacts of increased tanker traffic or consult meaningfully with First Nations, the board pretended to revisit these issues in 155 days. There's more if you click through.
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Feb 24, 2019 14:57
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Danaru posted:Sorry I'm not actually directing my anger at anyone in the thread but I'm drunk and gay and angry and god loving dammit the NDP are so inept and useless and poo poo right now that they're handing this election to the PC god loving dammit the truth just makes me angrier. I wish more of us were drunk, gay, and angry, friend. :Sadgreyface:
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Feb 24, 2019 15:01
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It takes a strange kind of madness to watch as all the major oil industry players pull out of the tar sands and think "this is because our government wasn't captured enough by the industry".
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Feb 24, 2019 15:07
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God it's not even 9:30 and I already feel bombarded by negative news from my feed this morning. If it's not snc lavalin scandals it's instead news about Dougie's grifter machine outstripping all of the other provincial parties combined with his $1300 meal donations, or editorials from the Sun talking about how postsecondary education should be burned to the ground to show those kids who's boss and to save is from communism.
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Feb 24, 2019 15:16
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Arcsquad12 posted:it's instead news about Dougie's grifter machine outstripping all of the other provincial parties combined with his $1300 meal donations My favorite take on this so far are the people responding "Yeah? Well, you know the Liberal's cash for access dinners cost more!"
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Feb 24, 2019 15:40
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infernal machines posted:My favorite take on this so far are the people responding "Yeah? Well, you know the Liberal's cash for access dinners cost more!" The past year has really changed my perspective on conservatives from "ignorant rednecks in small-town Ontario" to "xenophobic suburbanites with more money than sense who will gladly let the idiots from Renfrew County take all the heat for awful conservative behaviour." I still think my home riding back in Renfrew can't be saved as long as Cheryl runs the show federally. I don't mind Yak as the provincial MP but he has no real power in Dougie's vision. And they're not the ones shelling out thousands of dollars for charity meals, anyways.
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Feb 24, 2019 15:56
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I'm perfectly willing to blame Renfrew county for everything up to and including the weather, but when you have a party that immediately and wholeheartedly embraces being exactly as openly corrupt as the party they replaced, ostensibly as backlash for the previous party's corruption, and their supporters enthusiastically cheer this on with little more than "yeah, well, the other guys did the exact same thing". Well, I think the plot has been lost somewhere.
infernal machines fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Feb 24, 2019 |
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Feb 24, 2019 16:15
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I just wish it wasn't so drat depressing and that the alternatives were actually viable instead of being neutered with broken promises and vague statements.
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Feb 24, 2019 16:19
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Maneck posted:I am personally biased it towards the (completely unrealistic) concept of voting for the individual running rather than a party, and so I really like ranked ballots. In my last municipal election, there were four candidates with very similar positions and one outlier. I was terrified he was going to win by splitting 70% of the votes amongst four reasonable candidates whose views were the polar opposite of his. By fortune the outlier lost, but it was a painfully obvious example of why ranked ballots (so you can do "anyone but this guy") are voter enabling. I guess we disagree on where electoral reform needs to go since we both agree that FPTP is terrible, but something needs to change when we are eventually running into the 2 party system in BC and federally it's starting to slide to just be liberals and conservatives being the only viable parties with no middle ground or other choices. Also pulled the numbers off the top of my head the leading 7 tricked my mind the same way 7.99 canned tuna is like 7 dollars and a bit and not 8 dollars.
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Feb 24, 2019 17:20
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"2015 will be the last election held under first past the post!" *idiots cheer wildly*
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Feb 24, 2019 18:23
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RBC posted:"2015 will be the last election held under first past the post!" *idiots cheer wildly* Would've been nice, at least weed is legal I guess.
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Feb 24, 2019 18:39
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Syfe posted:Would've been nice, at least weed is legal I guess. You’d better believe that’s what he’ll campaign on. His marquee ad will consist entirely of him silently rolling and smoking a spliff on camera while he stares ~dreamily~ at the viewer.
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Feb 24, 2019 18:44
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Syfe posted:Would've been nice, at least weed is legal I guess. Not if you like edibles. Or dab pens for that matter.  You will smoke dry bud like an aging hippie nostalgic for Woodstock and YOU WILL LIKE IT.The year before legalization was so much better. Walk into one of the dozens of nice clean dispensaries, flash your membership card, buy products normal humans actually want instead of lovely overpriced mail order bud.
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Feb 24, 2019 18:58
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DynamicSloth posted:It takes a strange kind of madness to watch as all the major oil industry players pull out of the tar sands and think "this is because our government wasn't captured enough by the industry". Spice must flow.
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Feb 24, 2019 19:20
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BGrifter posted:Not if you like edibles. Or dab pens for that matter. I'm sure things will come up to speed in time, it's just fighting lovely internal conservatism that wants to go kicking and screaming about the whole affair. Still right now my favourite is the internal dichotomy that must be for the Mayor of Windsor Ontario who likes to tout Windsor's history and the necessity to branch out into other avenues BUT NOT CANNABISSSSSS. Seriously, it's nicknamed Sin City for how it was during Alcohol prohibition, the city is proud as poo poo about it. But Cannabis might ruin the downtown core or something, which is a shithole that they don't know how to fix as it is.
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Feb 24, 2019 19:32
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Syfe posted:I'm sure things will come up to speed in time, it's just fighting lovely internal conservatism that wants to go kicking and screaming about the whole affair. Eventually, but right now it suuuuuuuucks. There’s exactly one legal weed store in all of British Columbia, in Kamloops of all places. Vancouver just had licences approved for two more stores, but they have no announced date to open apparently. Those stores are going to have the same lovely super narrow line of products offered on the web. Oh and the second phase where they’re supposed to legalize edibles/vape carts/etc will likely be overseen by either a weak Liberal minority that requires help from the Cons or a Conservative minority government. I wouldn’t care so much if they’d just back off the grey market stores for a bit. But the RCMP have been ruthless at shutting down existing dispensaries to pave the way for legal weed stores that don’t exist yet.
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Feb 24, 2019 19:43
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BGrifter posted:Eventually, but right now it suuuuuuuucks. There’s exactly one legal weed store in all of British Columbia, in Kamloops of all places. Vancouver just had licences approved for two more stores, but they have no announced date to open apparently. Those stores are going to have the same lovely super narrow line of products offered on the web. Yeah there is one grey market store here that they tried to get rid of it, but it's back up, they are goddamn heroes. But yeah, Ontario still doesn't have any stores, so the grey market stores are being harassed, the online isn't the worst, definitely not the best.
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Feb 24, 2019 19:46
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Leofish posted:Spice must flow. https://twitter.com/TheRoyGreenShow/status/1099691888477655041
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Feb 24, 2019 20:00
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we can only dream
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Feb 24, 2019 20:06
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Maneck posted:I am personally biased it towards the (completely unrealistic) concept of voting for the individual running rather than a party, and so I really like ranked ballots. In my last municipal election, there were four candidates with very similar positions and one outlier. I was terrified he was going to win by splitting 70% of the votes amongst four reasonable candidates whose views were the polar opposite of his. By fortune the outlier lost, but it was a painfully obvious example of why ranked ballots (so you can do "anyone but this guy") are voter enabling. Ranked ballots are good when you're only going to elect one position. So for mayoral votes or choosing leaders they're solid. But they're extremely stupid in the case where you're going to elect a whole bunch of people; then you should want a selection of people who represent the views of all of the voting public, and ranked ballots will never give you that. I mean that's why hybrid systems exist; you can do ranked ballots for a single MP, and have party voting for proportionality.
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Feb 24, 2019 20:06
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Yes, secede your landlocked province from this lovely country and see how that improves your ability to get oil to the coast. 
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Feb 24, 2019 20:09
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RBC posted:we can only dream Should a landlocked province without a functional economy secede from the nation in order to get its increasingly worthless product to international markets? Our Conservative braintrust makes the case!
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Feb 24, 2019 20:11
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Pretty sure you could get most of Canada on board for this.
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Feb 24, 2019 20:11
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yeah but you see without the onerous burden of equalization payments,
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Feb 24, 2019 20:11
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Is the Roy Green show like the Red Green show but for humourless chuds?
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Feb 24, 2019 20:16
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I mean, it's clearly meant to be comedy, so...vyelkin posted:yeah but you see without the onerous burden of equalization payments, No, but for real
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Feb 24, 2019 20:19
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