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Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

wdarkk posted:

While trying to find a plane with a lower stall speed I found this:

A quick check of Google gives a Piper Cub (used militarily for observation duties) as 33 kts. You could go up on a windy day and fly backwards.

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C.M. Kruger
Oct 28, 2013

Cessna posted:

A quick check of Google gives a Piper Cub (used militarily for observation duties) as 33 kts. You could go up on a windy day and fly backwards.

Or having some issues when there's a lot of wind at your airfield.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_WmjWAGkLI

aphid_licker
Jan 7, 2009


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Champion_Scout

Stall speed:
Clean: 54 mph (86.9 km/h)
With full flaps: 49 mph (78.9 km/h) apparently 42,5798359kts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fieseler_Fi_156 allegedly has 27kts

https://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acdata_php/acdata_fi156_en.php

Honestly surprised that the Scout has that "high" a stall speed, they do crazy poo poo on YouTube.

LatwPIAT
Jun 6, 2011

Acebuckeye13 posted:

Whereas a modern airframe like the F/A-18 can be equipped or modified to perform a stupid number of roles (fighter, bomber, interceptor, attacker, CAS, tanker, and electronic warfare), back in the 1950s each specialized role was expected to be fulfilled by a purpose-built aircraft.


Two things I want to add to this:
1) In addition to all these roles you also had a difference in the domestic and the export market, which is what gives rise to the F-5 Freedom Fighter, which was a light, cheap, modern day-fighter/bomber that ensured the US could secure export contracts to nations that couldn't afford the F-4.

2) Once you have an airframe that works it's often very tempting to start consolidating roles so the airframes you have can be used for more than just their originally envisioned role. Like rebuilding some F/A-18s to handle an EWar role, or the successive upgrades to the F-16 light fighter that fit them for precision-guided munitions and long-distance AAMs. Once you've made your F-14s and F-15s into bomb trucks and your F-16s into air superiority fighters, you end up with a lot of planes that can all fulfill the same role - but it made sense to build the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F/A-18 as different planes when you started.

Acebuckeye13 posted:

expensive failures of the F-111 program of the 1960s and the F-35 program of today

The F-35's fine you heretic. :norway:

HookedOnChthonics
Dec 5, 2015

Profoundly dull


Cessna posted:

A quick check of Google gives a Piper Cub (used militarily for observation duties) as 33 kts. You could go up on a windy day and fly backwards.


“Wikipedia” posted:

The An-2 has no stall speed, a fact which is quoted in the operating handbook. A note from the pilot's handbook reads: "If the engine quits in instrument conditions or at night, the pilot should pull the control column full aft and keep the wings level. The leading-edge slats will snap out at about 64 km/h (40 mph) and when the airplane slows to a forward speed of about 40 km/h (25 mph), the airplane will sink at about a parachute descent rate until the aircraft hits the ground."

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qTbm5ZzZQy8


Also weird awkward planes is hugely my jam and a while ago I posted this big list of some favorites to the Aeronautical Insanity thread—hopefully it’ll be of interest here too. Here's an imgur album of all the pictures below for easier scrolling, although they're out of order and unlabeled :effort:

Not all are military but hopefully the militariness by volume (MBV) is enough to pass muster here.

quote:

Abrams Explorer
AEA Cygnet
Aero Spacelines Flying Simulator
Aero Spacelines Super Guppy
Albessard Tandem
Amiot 143
Armstrong Whitworth 154
Armstrong Whitworth Ape
Arup S-2
Avro Canada VZ-9 Avrocar
Baggio Aerogallo
Bartini Beriev VVA-14
Ben Brown SC Diamond
Bernard 80/82
Bleriot 3
Bleriot 24 Limousine
Blohm & Voss BV 141
Boeing YAL-1 Airborne Laser
Boeing X-32
Breguet Deux-Ponts
Breguet 3
Breguet 27
Breguet Br.410
British Aerospace Nimrod AEW3
Caproni Ca.60
Caproni Stipa
Colomban Cri-Cri
Convair XFY Pogo
Curtiss Duck
Curtiss-Wright VZ-7
Demenjoz Sailplane
Doak VZ-4
Dornier Do-31
Dornier Skyservant
DRDO AEW&CS
Douglas DC-2 1/2
Douglas XB-42 Mixmaster
Etrich E.3 Limousine
Fairey Rotodyne
Farman F.120 Jabiru
Fiat 7002
Flynano Nano
FMA I.Ae. 37
General Aircraft G.A.L.38
Gloster Meteor Prone Position Demonstrator
Grumman E-1 Tracer
Handley Page H.P.75 Manx
Hirsch-MAeRC H.100
Horten Hw-X26
Hunting H.126
IAI Arava
IAI EL/M-2075 Phalcon
Ilyushin Il-40
Joy JX
Kalinin K-12
Kaman K-Max
Leduc 0.21
Linke-Hofmann R.I
Linke-Hofmann R.II
Lockheed SR-71B
Lockheed Tacit Blue
Lun Ekranoplan
Lysander P.12
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG I-320
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-9L
Miles Aerovan
Mitsubishi Ki-1-II
Myasishchev VM-T Atlant
Nord 1500
Payen Pa 49
Piasecki HRP-1 Rescuer
Piasecki PA-97
Piasecki VZ-8 Airgeep
PZL M-15 Belphegor
PZL M-18 Dromader
Rutan Model 202 Boomerang
Rutan Model 72 Grizzly
Republic XF-91 Thunderceptor
Rocheville Arctic Tern
Rohr 2-175
Rohr M.R.1
Rover
Ryan XV-5 Vertifan
Saab 29 Tunnan
Schad ParasolB
Schroeder Cyclogyro
Sikorsky S-58
Short 360
Short Seamew
Short SC-1
Short SC.7 Skyvan
SIPA S.200 Minijet
SNCAC NC.1071
SNCASE Se-100
SNECMA Coleoptere
SOFIA
Starr Bumble Bee
Thompson Boxmoth
Transavia PL-12 Airtruk
Treadwell Alleycat
Trotter WSA-1
Tunison Scout
Tupolev ANT-9 Crocodile
Tuscar H-71B
Van Dellen LH-2
Vertol VZ-2
Volante Flying Car
Vought V-173
Waterman Arrowplane
Waterman Flying Wing
Yakovlev Yak-38U

Geisladisk
Sep 15, 2007

Cessna posted:

A quick check of Google gives a Piper Cub (used militarily for observation duties) as 33 kts. You could go up on a windy day and fly backwards.

People compete in short takeoffs and landings in these things, and it's loving crazy. A Piper Cub modified for extra-low stall speed can almost literally land on a dime. You could land one of those things on a decently sized dining room table.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q8fBMpJ_kE

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

When it comes to luck, I think Malta was very lucky not to be invaded. Air power in early 1942 ground it down to the point had the Italians and Germans worked together and not invaded Crete, they could have taken it.

Of course you already see why that didn't happen, in addition to that Hitler was wishy-washy about the whole thing

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine
What sites could I go to read about the use of armor during the Battle of Grozny and the Yugoslav Civil Wars in English, ideally something decently in-depth (without going all :umberto: about penetration or spalling or whatever?)

Army War College? Tradoc?

Schadenboner fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Feb 24, 2019

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

College Slice
Is there a kind of sword that could be used like a fencing sword but looks like a longsword just narrower and slightly shorter?

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Raenir Salazar posted:

Is there a kind of sword that could be used like a fencing sword but looks like a longsword just narrower and slightly shorter?

I mean, do you want to kill your opponent?

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007

Isn't a shorter longsword just a 'sword'?
aka 'arming sword'

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME
there was a bunch of complex-hilted poo poo around before rapiers were invented

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007

I thought making a rapier went:
1) Take your favorite sword
2) Put a really fancy hilt guard on it because that poo poo's fashionable now
3) Swagger

Grenrow
Apr 11, 2016

Raenir Salazar posted:

Is there a kind of sword that could be used like a fencing sword but looks like a longsword just narrower and slightly shorter?

This reminds me of a custom sword I found once on a British auction site that had been commissioned by a British officer who had obviously seen colonial service, because the design he went with was basically an early modern backsword or sidesword blade mounted with a more contemporary service-pattern saber hilt and guard. You could tell it was some dude who had fought in South Africa or Afghanistan/India and wanted a much beefier blade than was generally popular at the time in Britain/western Europe. There was another one I saw where the dude had gone a totally opposite route and had a custom Wilkinson that was basically a rapier blade. I'm sure if you took the hilts off and just compared the blades alone, they wouldn't have looked much out of place next to the blades of Hey Guns' dudes.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Grenrow posted:

I'm sure if you took the hilts off and just compared the blades alone, they wouldn't have looked much out of place next to the blades of Hey Guns' dudes.
interesting you say that because i have seen a lot of western european swords with ottoman grips and vice versa in saxony. saxony was near transylvania which was a conduit for hybrid sword things
edit: in both directions

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Feb 25, 2019

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952




Schadenboner posted:

What sites could I go to read about the use of armor during the Battle of Grozny and the Yugoslav Civil Wars in English, ideally something decently in-depth (without going all :umberto: about penetration or spalling or whatever?)

Army War College? Tradoc?

There's one game in the wargaming community on the topic of Grozny

https://www.atomagazine.com/Details.cfm?ProdID=42&category=4

The game in the issue is a good treatment of the subject. For specifically tanks in the conflict, checking the sources in the articles in that issue, I see Tanks in Chechnya, M. Baryatinski, 1999. Also this looks right up your alley, For All Seasons: The Old But Effective RPG-7, Lester Grau, Foreign Military Studies Office, Ft. LEavenworth, KS. No date.

Grenrow
Apr 11, 2016

HEY GUNS posted:

interesting you say that because i have seen a lot of western european swords with ottoman grips and vice versa in saxony. saxony was near transylvania which was a conduit for hybrid sword things

European blades with local hilts were very common India as well. One British cavalry officer used that to argue against some theories about why Indian swordsmen were often perceived to be better than their British counterparts. Some people claimed it was about some inherent quality to Indian steel, but this one guy looked at a bunch of Indian swords after a skirmish and was like, "these are literally just 1796 light cavalry blades with Indian hilts." He (correctly) argued that it was all about the way that they were trained and the way both sides thought of swordsmanship, not any inherent technological advantage or disadvantage. Not a lot of people in the 19th century wanted to hear it, though.

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten

Some of those were killed by a CIA agent leaning out of a Huey firing an AK-47.

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007

Didn't the indian soldiers also care for their swords a lot better and kept them actually sharp?

Grenrow
Apr 11, 2016

The Lone Badger posted:

Didn't the indian soldiers also care for their swords a lot better and kept them actually sharp?

Not really in terms of caring for their swords better or that British soldiers didn't know how to keep swords sharp, but British metal scabbards would generally dull a blade, leading to a lot more need for constant resharpening than a traditional wood/leather scabbard. Eventually the British would start issuing field scabbards that were not made of metal. And, as ever, some soldiers/officers were going to be neglectful dipshits who didn't maintain their kit properly (or, for officers, might have tried to cheap out and bought low-quality weapons to begin with). BUT the downside of a scabbard with wood or leather involved in its construction in a climate like India's was that the parts could warp or shrink in high-moisture environments. Your call as to whether you'd prefer to resharpen your weapon more often than you might otherwise have to or if you'd rather run the risk of being unable to draw your saber when your pistol misfires as a determined Afghan warrior is coming at your with a Khyber knife. You can find plenty of art and accounts of British troopers frantically resharpening sabers in between skirmishes during the Indian mutiny though. Metal scabbard or not, most dudes who actually used a blade for hand-to-hand combat (which was much more frequent in India than in contemporary European conflicts) would probably have wanted to resharpen before and after a fight anyways.

Grand Prize Winner
Feb 19, 2007


Grenrow posted:

most dudes who actually used a blade for hand-to-hand combat (which was much more frequent in India than in contemporary European conflicts)

Hope I don't sound like a dumbass here but why was that?

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

Grenrow posted:

Khyber knife.

Oh hey, I googled that and I got one of those. Or at least, something with a similar design. My grandad gave it to me. It was one of the things he collected when he was a radio operator in WW2.




According to him, he got it appraised and the paperwork is also in the case, but I've never really tried checking. He made the case too, and I don't wanna mess it up. I've just got it up hanging on a wall, reminding me of him.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

Raenir Salazar posted:

Is there a kind of sword that could be used like a fencing sword but looks like a longsword just narrower and slightly shorter?
By "fencing sword" you mean like, a blunt bendy thing, or..?

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

Grand Prize Winner posted:

Hope I don't sound like a dumbass here but why was that?

If we're talking about the mid 19th century, this was about the time that guns became good enough that cavalry charging home into melee against well trained infantry (even in line) was becoming suicidal - the Thin Red Line at Balaclava, etc. Set piece battles like that did happen in 19th century India (the Sikh wars for instance), but it wasn't as common.

feedmegin fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Feb 25, 2019

Grand Prize Winner
Feb 19, 2007


I meant more like why was combat in India more likely to get that close? I'd been under the impression that the various Indian kingdoms had militaries that were comparable to European ones, although maybe a decade or two out of date. Not sure where I got that impression, though.

e: and I don't even know what period I talking about either. eesh.

Grand Prize Winner fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Feb 25, 2019

Tree Bucket
Apr 1, 2016

R.I.P.idura leucophrys

GotLag posted:

In the early 20th century mining companies and South Australian Railways used to organise occasional trains to take miners and their families from middle-of-nowhere mining towns like Broken Hill to Adelaide on the coast for beach holidays, and that was apparently quite a common reaction for the children.

One of these Broken Hill picnic trains, incidentally, was attacked in 1915 by men carrying a home-made Ottoman flag- which, I suppose, sort of counts as the only act of war on Australian soil during WW1...

(Also: my mother was one of those Broken Hill kids; her first visit to the beach came a week after watching a cool new movie called Jaws.)

EdBlackadder
Apr 8, 2009
Lipstick Apathy

Raenir Salazar posted:

Is there a kind of sword that could be used like a fencing sword but looks like a longsword just narrower and slightly shorter?

I've seen done swords known as 'cut-and-thrusts' which were something of an early rapier but still broad enough to cut. A cursory Google search for the term shows a bit of info but nothing terribly in depth.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

This thing caused seizures if you were too close to it on startup. It was the closest humanity has ever come to recreating the mythical Brown Note.

GotLag
Jul 17, 2005

食べちゃダメだよ

Tree Bucket posted:

(Also: my mother was one of those Broken Hill kids; her first visit to the beach came a week after watching a cool new movie called Jaws.)

I didn't realise they continued until that recently, do you know when they ended?

aphid_licker
Jan 7, 2009


HookedOnChthonics posted:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qTbm5ZzZQy8


Also weird awkward planes is hugely my jam and a while ago I posted this big list of some favorites to the Aeronautical Insanity thread—hopefully it’ll be of interest here too. Here's an imgur album of all the pictures below for easier scrolling, although they're out of order and unlabeled :effort:

Not all are military but hopefully the militariness by volume (MBV) is enough to pass muster here.
You might appreciate the Leduc 0.20

e: aw poo poo you already have it in the album but not the list, my bad. That is an excellent collection.
e: laughing uncontrollably at that gallery. It just keeps getting better.

aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Feb 25, 2019

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012

BREADS

wdarkk posted:

While trying to find a plane with a lower stall speed I found this:


Imagine being known as the jet fighter pilot who lost to a biplane.

quote:

On 12 January 1968, four North Vietnamese Air Force AN-2 Colt biplanes lifted off from an airfield in northeastern North Vietnam and headed west toward Laos. The aircraft were on a mission to destroy a US radar base that was guiding bombers in attacks against targets in North Vietnam. Known to the Americans as Site 85, the radar facility was perched atop a 5,800-foothigh mountain, Phou Pha Thi. Manned by US Air Force volunteers “sheepdipped” as employees of the Lockheed Aircraft Corporation, the site had been in operation only a few months. The mountain, used for many years as a staging base for CIA-directed Hmong guerilla fighters and American special operations and rescue helicopters, was only 125 nautical miles from Hanoi. Air America, a CIA-proprietary, provided aerial support for the facility, the technicians, and the security forces.

The Colts reached Site 85 early in the afternoon, and two began bombing and strafing passes as the others circled nearby. Coincidentally, Air America captain Ted Moore, flying a UH-1D Huey helicopter carrying ammunition to the site, saw the attack (“It looked like World War I,” he recalled.) and gave chase to a Colt as it turned back to the Vietnamese border. Moore positioned his helicopter above the biplane, as crewman Glenn Woods fired an AK-47 rifle down on it. The pursuit continued for more than 20 minutes until the second AN-2 flew underneath the helicopter. Dropping back, Moore and Woods watched as the first AN-2 dropped and crashed into a ridge just west of the North Vietnamese border. Minutes later, the second Colt hit the side of a mountain three miles farther north. The other Colts escaped, inactive observers throughout. Within hours a CIA-controlled ground team reached the crashed aircraft and found bullet holes in the downed planes.

In the mists of the Annamite Mountains and part of a secret war, Air America employees Ted Moore and Glenn Woods gained the distinction of having shot down a fixed-wing aircraft from a helicopter, a singular aerial victory in the Vietnam War. Two months later, North Vietnamese commandos attacked and destroyed Site 85, inflicting the deadliest single ground loss of US Air Force personnel of the Vietnam War.

On 27 July 2007, CIA officially received An Air Combat First in an event attended by members of the Air America Board; pilot Ted Moore; Sawang Reed, the wife of flight mechanic Glenn Woods; CIA paramilitary legend Bill Lair; and the donors of the painting, former Air America officers Marius Burke and Boyd D. Mesecher.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

College Slice

Siivola posted:

By "fencing sword" you mean like, a blunt bendy thing, or..?

Well basically its for a character for a game project and I basically want to give her a sword that looks like regular sword but is more appropriate for her size and build and I don't like the look of fencing swords and rapiers seem a little too narrow.

I'm basically looking for a sword that should "look" cool and appropriate for a high schooler that maybe fights supernatural things.

EdBlackadder posted:

I've seen done swords known as 'cut-and-thrusts' which were something of an early rapier but still broad enough to cut. A cursory Google search for the term shows a bit of info but nothing terribly in depth.

This looks promising, but some googling seems to also bring up rapiers so I just might be stuck designing a larger rapier I guess.

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine

mllaneza posted:

There's one game in the wargaming community on the topic of Grozny

https://www.atomagazine.com/Details.cfm?ProdID=42&category=4

The game in the issue is a good treatment of the subject. For specifically tanks in the conflict, checking the sources in the articles in that issue, I see Tanks in Chechnya, M. Baryatinski, 1999. Also this looks right up your alley, For All Seasons: The Old But Effective RPG-7, Lester Grau, Foreign Military Studies Office, Ft. LEavenworth, KS. No date.

:tipshat:

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

Grand Prize Winner posted:

I meant more like why was combat in India more likely to get that close? I'd been under the impression that the various Indian kingdoms had militaries that were comparable to European ones, although maybe a decade or two out of date. Not sure where I got that impression, though.

e: and I don't even know what period I talking about either. eesh.

I could be talking out of my rear end here, but in general, if you're not seeing formal standup battles between large, disciplined armies in a given region, that implies any fighting that does occur is more likely to be small scale skirmishing, bandits, irregular warfare, etc, and in that situation you're more likely to end up in melee, especially as cavalry and especially within the Raj itself. There were definitely exceptions (I mentioned the Sikhs for a reason), but in general by the 19th century you're not seeing nearly as many of the sort of standup fights you'd see in Europe.

Vahakyla
May 3, 2013
Did IRA have good access to SAMs and was there ever attempted shootdowns of brit choppers? If not, why not?

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

Fun Shoe
How were the Japanese the only ones to crack the code on multi-deck carrier ops prior to the war? I know this is ex post facto but that seems like the kind of thing that should have been blindingly obvious to the USN and RN as soon as carrier planes started carrying enough stuff to threaten big ships.

ContinuityNewTimes
Dec 30, 2010

Я выдуман напрочь

Vahakyla posted:

Did IRA have good access to SAMs and was there ever attempted shootdowns of brit choppers? If not, why not?

They shot down a gazelle in 1990

E: apparently that was done with a machinegun. No deaths.

Wiki also says the IRA once shot down a helicopter with a mortar, which is, uhh, really good or bad luck depending on your point of view.

ContinuityNewTimes fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Feb 25, 2019

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!
Can you do an aircraft carrier with vertically stacked flight decks? So you can have a bunch of planes take off simultaneously.... Surely some idiotgenius has tried this at some point?

AlexanderCA
Jul 21, 2010

by Cyrano4747

Fangz posted:

Surely some idiotgenius has tried this at some point?

Ofcourse!

http://thedrive.com/the-war-zone/11821/the-crazy-aircraft-carrier-hangar-catapults-of-world-war-ii

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Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Fangz posted:

Can you do an aircraft carrier with vertically stacked flight decks? So you can have a bunch of planes take off simultaneously.... Surely some idiotgenius has tried this at some point?

Before the advent of the catapult you needed the wind at your back to take off.

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