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Ubiquitous_ posted:100% accurate imo Same Re: why would anyone choose this and also re: freepers loving suck, me and a good high school friend basically came out at the same time about a decade ago because a group of us were getting high and the discussion turned to then-LGBT rights. Our straight friend was like “why the gently caress would anyone choose to be hated” and it went from there. As much as I’ll vouch for five-way all-guy street hookups, asking “why the gently caress would yoy choose to be gay if being straight would make you equally happy?” is a question that no homophobe I’ve met can answer.
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Feb 25, 2019 02:40
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I used to know some gay dudes who would mess with people doing the whole "it's a choice" thing by just asking "so when did you choose to be straight?" They were very funny people and I hung out with them until they moved away.
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Feb 25, 2019 03:06
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Minenfeld! posted:Both of my parents subscribe to the "choice" view of homosexuality and when I asked them why you'd choose to do something that is going to get you persecuted, their response was that all the gay men or women they know had a bad and abusive childhood which caused it. It's an interesting hybrid rationalization. My parents are borderline freeper types these days and I am actually surprised that they accepted my gay sister. Every other issue from this genre they are conservative christian assholes about, "the blacks", mexicans, lazy poors, what a great guy Trump is, but they are ok with the gays and that is their one redeeming quality.
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Feb 25, 2019 11:59
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I used to know some gay dudes who would mess with people doing the whole "it's a choice" thing by just asking "so when did you choose to be straight?" It's pretty  that that's what freeper types accuse "the gay agenda" of doing, when I can see examples of straights doing it so much that it saturates society outside of queer spaces.I bet in a binormative society you'd see a whole lot of bi people with minority groups of exclusively monosexual gay and straight people. We're already seeing that with some surveys of Gen-Ys saying that a majority don't identify as exclusively gay or straight, and that's just from society no longer being quite as openly lovely to gay and bi people, not from society being anywhere near outright binormative.
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Feb 25, 2019 12:14
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Minenfeld! posted:Both of my parents subscribe to the "choice" view of homosexuality and when I asked them why you'd choose to do something that is going to get you persecuted, their response was that all the gay men or women they know had a bad and abusive childhood which caused it. It's an interesting hybrid rationalization. Same conservative logic for why people do crimes or are atheists: they make the bad choice because they are morally weak and therefore deserve to be destroyed by the strong. I guess it's not really a surprise.
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Feb 25, 2019 16:39
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There's also the whole "god made us all straight and the bible (they've never read) says so" thing.
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Feb 25, 2019 17:48
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Meanwhile in reform judaism, where we only use the bible parts where god is a petty tyrant, and read it every week at minimum, the accepted biblical precedent is: Being LGBTQ and not living the way you want is about as dumb as a starving man refusing to eat shellfish: god wants you to live, happily, and he’ll loving understand
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Feb 25, 2019 17:54
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It really baffles me how sex negative Christianity became given how sex positive Judaism is.
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Feb 25, 2019 18:48
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Virgin birth, remember?
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Feb 25, 2019 18:54
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Minenfeld! posted:Both of my parents subscribe to the "choice" view of homosexuality and when I asked them why you'd choose to do something that is going to get you persecuted, their response was that all the gay men or women they know had a bad and abusive childhood which caused it. It's an interesting hybrid rationalization. LOL. Why would you choose to do something that not only will get you persecuted, but it also according to their theory is something no one naturally is interested in and it in fact naturally disgusts rather than excites them? Ask your dad if he ever could just "choose" to have sex with another man, and if not, why not? That was the argument that finally convinced my mother that it can't be just a "choice" a couple of decades ago. But she was actually discussing the issue in good faith and overcoming a sheltered Catholic background. I understand that this usually is not the case, and most parents won't listen. But drat, the choice argument is so loving dumb.
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Feb 25, 2019 18:56
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ToxicSlurpee posted:It really baffles me how sex negative Christianity became given how sex positive Judaism is. Isn't that mostly Paul's fault?
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Feb 25, 2019 19:35
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It's mostly a nonsense talking point.
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Feb 25, 2019 19:51
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A certain interpretation puts Ghomorroa and Sodom for being destroyed via sexual and other deviancy. Others read it as a complete betrayal of guest manners being cause of smiting the city and I'm sure you can tell which is a more popular interpretation among conservative Christians now.
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Feb 25, 2019 20:00
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Ezekiel 16:49 says which of the two it was.
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Feb 25, 2019 20:24
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And also, keep in mind that Freepers and a lot of Evangelicals would bring back sodomy laws in a heartbeat if they could. It's why they got all antsy about the Trump administration saying they would campaign for homosexuality to be legalized world-wide last week. Gayness being a choice is kind of necessary for it to be punished as a crime.ChaseSP posted:A certain interpretation puts Ghomorroa and Sodom for being destroyed via sexual and other deviancy. Others read it as a complete betrayal of guest manners being cause of smiting the city and I'm sure you can tell which is a more popular interpretation among conservative Christians now. I've read that there are apocryphal texts that tell about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, but it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with homosexuality. God destroyed the place because they were essentially all a bunch of rules lawyers, who abused laws to steal as much money as they could from anyone just passing through. It just so happens that the version of the story that found its way into the Jewish canon, and then later the Bible, can be read as a literal "they wanna gently caress those angels" scenario rather than that being a metaphor.
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Feb 25, 2019 20:33
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I'm aware of this, but when mentioned it's the most popular reading, mostly from people who haven't read the bible.
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Feb 25, 2019 20:40
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Neo_Crimson posted:Isn't that mostly Paul's fault? Yep. He was an incredibly goony dude who didn't think you should be having sex at all and you should be a monk.
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Feb 25, 2019 20:57
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Neo_Crimson posted:Isn't that mostly Paul's fault? Pretty much all of Christianity is Paul's fault.
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Feb 25, 2019 21:08
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predicto posted:LOL. According to Freepers everyone believes in god but gay people are either rebelling against god to cause trouble for whatever reasons or they're possessed by satan.
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Feb 25, 2019 21:09
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Cythereal posted:Yep. He was an incredibly goony dude who didn't think you should be having sex at all and you should be a monk. I don't think that's true. Jesus made some rather anti-family and anti-fornication remarks, Paul thought it better to marry than burn, even if not marrying at all was best. All the apostles apparently thought 'sexual immorality' and eating blood unacceptable for Christians. Asceticism was a contemporary phenomenon, eg in the Essenes. Gnostic and Manichean ideas about the world would arguably make Christianity more anti-sex later.
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Feb 25, 2019 22:24
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49 ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. For anyone who doesn’t know what Ezekiel 49-50 says. But of course somehow “sodomy” means people kissing and not bankers loving
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Feb 25, 2019 22:34
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predicto posted:LOL. That's why you see vastly greater percentages of Gen-Y/Gen-Z identifying as neither gay nor straight, and that's just from taking some of the pressure off, not from actively promoting "the gay lifestyle" as freep seems to think. And that disgust, that's entirely social, nothing natural about it. It's the same disgust that Freepers' dads felt about miscegenation. It can be changed.
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Feb 26, 2019 09:18
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Guavanaut posted:I fully believe that most people are far more fluid in sexuality than that would imply, and the reason why ~95% of people used to identify as straight is exactly that, because it's easier; anything else will get you persecuted, and people will be disgusted because they've been conditioned to be disgusted. They're in effect choosing to be straight, only it isn't a free choice, it's a socially pressured one. Oh of course all that is true. I was focusing on what the conservatives believe to be true, and how it makes their whole “choice” argument even more internally inconsistent (if you can get them to listen, which I acknowledge is usually impossible )
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Feb 26, 2019 17:36
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Oh dear me posted:I don't think that's true. Jesus made some rather anti-family and anti-fornication remarks, Paul thought it better to marry than burn, even if not marrying at all was best. All the apostles apparently thought 'sexual immorality' and eating blood unacceptable for Christians. Asceticism was a contemporary phenomenon, eg in the Essenes. Gnostic and Manichean ideas about the world would arguably make Christianity more anti-sex later. Yeah, what they taught was anything that distracts from service to God is bad. They made some practical exceptions and sex was one of them. Sex is, you know, how you get more people and you kind of need to keep getting more people to replace the ones that die so sex isn't inherently bad in and of itself. What is bad is lust which is indulging in it too much. This is why lust is a deadly sin; if the only thing you give a poo poo about is pleasures of the flesh that distracts you from service to God. While the ideal was to never get married and never gently caress the realization is that that just isn't a practical possibility not just for reproductive reasons but because the drive to gently caress is pretty much as strong as the drive to eat. While you won't not have sex to death like you can starve to death most people can't go totally celibate. That's why it was totally fine to get married and gently caress a lot and even enjoy it along the way but if you started sleeping around that was getting into lustful territory. I think it was Paul who also said that if you get married you shouldn't turn your spouse down ever if they want to gently caress. Part of the agreement was that you'd satisfy each other sexually in a Christian marriage so if your spouse is horny but you're not really feeling it right now then do something for them anyway. That also wasn't gender-specific; he said that poo poo goes both ways. A big focus though was on sex being primarily for procreation. Obviously you need people to be loving if you want to keep having people. It isn't gayness in and of itself that is considered bad but rather that indulging in gay sex is about pleasure and nothing else. Gay sex can't produce children so it is purely indulging in pleasures of the flesh which Christianity discourages. Of course Jesus taught that we're all sinners anyway so if you do do that sort of thing then the right thing to do is to apologize to God for sinning and try not to do it again even though you probably will. It isn't like one homosexual act sends you to Hell forever by default but rather that indulging in sexual pleasures for their own sake is indulging in lustful behavior which distracts you from what really matters. Last I heard the Catholic view is that being gay isn't wrong but if you're gay you should be celibate as sex is primarily for reproduction. Even in the context of marriage and procreation certain sex acts are considered bad for similar reasons as is having sex too much. What evangelicals did was take that to an extreme view that being gay is in and of itself terrible and that God will punish even tolerating it. The story of Soddom and Ghomorroa is where they get that justification even though like was said the crime there was that the people of Soddom and Ghomorroa were just huge dicks all around. For sexual things it wasn't gay stuff specifically but the fact that the lustfully indulged in every single pleasure of the flesh they could find. When the angels showed up the people there demanded they come out to get hosed because nobody there had hosed an angel before so hell yeah let's gently caress the angels! Evangelicals pretty much just laser focused on gayness for whatever reason. The original teaching was basically asceticism; the ideal was that you would live as simply as possible and indulge in as few pleasures as possible so you could maximize your service to God. There was absolutely no way you'd ever be perfect about it so what Jesus taught was that you should do the absolute best you can and then apologize when you inevitably gently caress up along the way. Once again evangelicals hosed things up by setting a minimum bar that in some denominations just kept getting higher and higher. This is why you get congregations of like 20 people meeting in a garage that believe that absolutely everybody else is going to Hell. ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Feb 26, 2019 |
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Feb 26, 2019 18:34
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Heaven sounds like hell if these people would be there so I'd be down for that.
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Feb 26, 2019 19:17
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Yeah, what they taught was anything that distracts from service to God is bad. They made some practical exceptions and sex was one of them. Sex is, you know, how you get more people and you kind of need to keep getting more people to replace the ones that die so sex isn't inherently bad in and of itself. What is bad is lust which is indulging in it too much. This is why lust is a deadly sin; if the only thing you give a poo poo about is pleasures of the flesh that distracts you from service to God. While the ideal was to never get married and never gently caress the realization is that that just isn't a practical possibility not just for reproductive reasons but because the drive to gently caress is pretty much as strong as the drive to eat. While you won't not have sex to death like you can starve to death most people can't go totally celibate. That's why it was totally fine to get married and gently caress a lot and even enjoy it along the way but if you started sleeping around that was getting into lustful territory. I think it was Paul who also said that if you get married you shouldn't turn your spouse down ever if they want to gently caress. Part of the agreement was that you'd satisfy each other sexually in a Christian marriage so if your spouse is horny but you're not really feeling it right now then do something for them anyway. That also wasn't gender-specific; he said that poo poo goes both ways. I think too that part of the issue with Sodom and Gomorrah and the angels is that, as travelers, they were customarily to be treated with a certain standard of hospitality which they were not (and just in general that the inhabitants were super poo poo to people who were passing through who they were supposed to treat well).
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Feb 26, 2019 23:29
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Feinne posted:I think too that part of the issue with Sodom and Gomorrah and the angels is that, as travelers, they were customarily to be treated with a certain standard of hospitality which they were not (and just in general that the inhabitants were super poo poo to people who were passing through who they were supposed to treat well). The simplest way to put it is that Soddom and Gomorrah were destroyed not for any particular action (the story starts with God saying "what the gently caress is this poo poo, I'ma blow it the gently caress up, someone get Lot and his kids out of there, they're the only people worth a drat"), but because they were the type of people who, upon learning that their neighbor had guests over, decided to surround his house and demand he let them rape his guests.
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Feb 26, 2019 23:34
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Keeshhound posted:The simplest way to put it is that Soddom and Gomorrah were destroyed not for any particular action (the story starts with God saying "what the gently caress is this poo poo, I'ma blow it the gently caress up, someone get Lot and his kids out of there, they're the only people worth a drat"), but because they were the type of people who, upon learning that their neighbor had guests over, decided to surround his house and demand he let them rape his guests. So 3/4ths of the GOP then.
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Feb 26, 2019 23:52
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I assume that last quarter is just hung up on the fact that the angels were men, right?
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Feb 27, 2019 00:20
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Keeshhound posted:The simplest way to put it is that Soddom and Gomorrah were destroyed not for any particular action (the story starts with God saying "what the gently caress is this poo poo, I'ma blow it the gently caress up, someone get Lot and his kids out of there, they're the only people worth a drat"), but because they were the type of people who, upon learning that their neighbor had guests over, decided to surround his house and demand he let them rape his guests. Yes, Lot was so great he offered to let the mob rape his daughters instead but they weren't having it.
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Feb 27, 2019 06:13
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Of course Jesus taught that we're all sinners anyway so if you do do that sort of thing then the right thing to do is to apologize to God for sinning and try not to do it again even though you probably will. It isn't like one homosexual act sends you to Hell forever by default but rather that indulging in sexual pleasures for their own sake is indulging in lustful behavior which distracts you from what really matters. This sounds dangerously tolerant and decent. And look how many words it took you to explain. There's nuance there. GAY BAD is way easier.
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Feb 27, 2019 06:51
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Georgia Peach posted:Yes, Lot was so great he offered to let the mob rape his daughters instead but they weren't having it. Jokes on him though as his daughters raped him.
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Feb 27, 2019 11:46
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Corsair Pool Boy posted:This sounds dangerously tolerant and decent. And look how many words it took you to explain. There's nuance there. GAY BAD is way easier. Yeah, what Jesus actually taught is very far from the way evangelicals behave.
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Feb 27, 2019 12:27
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:49 ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. While that's true, there's also this verse which conservative Christians will fall back on. "Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust,[h] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire." - Jude 7 The footnote there notes that the original is more accurately translated "went after other flesh," and the KJV translates it as "going after strange flesh." What this really means is a subject of debate from what I understand; some people think it means them wanting to have sex with angels (although the people of Sodom and Gomorrah didn't know the guests were angels). But other translations like the NRSV here translate it as sexual immorality, and the NIV also adds the word "perversion." Given that, they usually interpret Jude 7 to mean "gay sex" and use this verse to defend their belief that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality.
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Feb 28, 2019 03:05
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Twelve by Pies posted:While that's true, there's also this verse which conservative Christians will fall back on. My first thought is that Ezekiel is in the Bible proper and Jude is in the Bible Fanfic canon, but obviously christians wouldn’t go for that. Something I learned around the time this line of doscussion got started is that apparently catholic priests weren’t forbidden to marry or gently caress until the 11th or 12th centuries. It’s interesting how puritanical some branches of christianity have become, because liberal christians and muslims I know tend to agree with the basic jewish stuff as I learned it. Stuff like “God made loving fun for a reason. Enjoy what he gave you.” We have fast days, but they are accompanied by feasts. We drink, just not enough to hurt ourselves or others. We gently caress, even rabbis. We are allowed to gorge on pork and shrimp if we’ve just been saved from starving. God made you enjoy food for a reason. I don’t believe in a literal god who cares what I do but I still feel a mental grounding in trying to be jewish, that I think would help freep types who think god is looking for any excuse to torture them.
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Feb 28, 2019 03:47
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Twelve by Pies posted:While that's true, there's also this verse which conservative Christians will fall back on. There are interpretations that they were basically loving anything a dick would fit in while trying to expand that definition as far as possible. I've seen people saying that meant a lot of bestiality and pedophilia. If you go by that interpretation the gay shenanigans weren't the problem at all but rather the fact that they were lustfully loving absolutely everything all the time. Even then the sin wasn't any specific act but lust in and of itself. Incidentally the modern definition of lust doesn't match the historical one used to define the sins way back when; lust didn't just apply to sex. A lot of the original meaning got lost in translation. It's very important to remember that the KJV isn't even one specific version and is also like seven languages removed from the original Hebrew. Edgar Allen Ho posted:My first thought is that Ezekiel is in the Bible proper and Jude is in the Bible Fanfic canon, but obviously christians wouldn’t go for that. I think some of that was that Catholic priests were always supposed to be celibate but it was never made a hard and fast rule until that point. Like they weren't supposed to own property or have titles either but the various popes just didn't give a crap. When really immoral priests started showing up or half assing tending their congregations a pope said "knock this poo poo right the gently caress off."
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Feb 28, 2019 16:36
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I'm at work so only can only phone post but this thread is peak freep. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3731124/posts They are basically calling for conservative jihad.
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Feb 28, 2019 16:42
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quote:Since Democrats can't win the argument with reason and facts, they try to intimidate us into silence.
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Feb 28, 2019 16:51
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Plinkey posted:I'm at work so only can only phone post but this thread is peak freep. Let's see here.... quote:To: RoosterRedux quote:To: RoosterRedux "The left is trying to start a civil war. Therefore, we must secede and form a new nation! A confederacy, if you will!" quote:To: RoosterRedux Wait, so does the left want a civil war or do we want to cause a civil war with the left? quote:To: a fool in paradise; SkyPilot quote:To: Eaker; Jack Black; archy; DuncanWaring; Travis McGee; Absolutely Nobama; afnamvet; AK2KX; ...
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Feb 28, 2019 16:54
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Plinkey posted:I'm at work so only can only phone post but this thread is peak freep. ...right after "Dancing With The Stars" is over, of course. I don't take these shitlords seriously; if they actually cared about this, they wouldn't disavow every right-wing terrorist action as a false-flag operation.
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Feb 28, 2019 16:56
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