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Cat Mattress posted:"you can't accuse Israel of doing a bad thing, because that's the same as accusing Jews of doing a bad thing, and that makes you a Nazi!" is getting really, really old. I mean, if you hear something that sounds very extremely racist you should at least check a reliable source before deciding if it's true or not. Like if you hear obama got arrested for breaking in the fried chicken and watermelon factory maybe he did, but maybe you should try and find multiple sources reporting that instead of going with whatever first rando tweet you find that said it.
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Feb 24, 2019 01:39
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Hallucinogenic Toreador posted:Right, but that's from the same article, which has a variety of accusations with different levels of sourcing and different levels of detail. Were the 1997 tests carried out only on Arabs or on all prisoners? It's implied that the tests were forced on the prisoners but it's not outright stated (of course paying prisoners to take part in medical studies has its own ethical problems but it wouldn't be as bad). Then you have the accusations of kidnapping children for their organs for which the source is the cultural secretary of a Belgian trade union. Having that kind of assortment of accusations doesn't make it seem like a reliable source. All the claims are sourced, though, so there's really no point in attacking the particular article that's carrying them. If you're going to attack sources, go attack the original sources.
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Feb 24, 2019 01:46
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I mean, if you hear something that sounds very extremely racist you should at least check a reliable source before deciding if it's true or not. Which is why I started my post by explicitly saying that MEMO is not a reliable source. Did you miss that? And I'm sorry but Israel does horrible things to Palestinians all the time, so accusations that Israel is doing something horrible to Palestinians shouldn't be countered by "blood libel!!!!" because that's just too loving easy. Main Paineframe posted:All the claims are sourced, though, so there's really no point in attacking the particular article that's carrying them. If you're going to attack sources, go attack the original sources. You can attack an article for having hard to check sources. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Feb 24, 2019 |
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Feb 24, 2019 01:47
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Main Paineframe posted:All the claims are sourced, though, so there's really no point in attacking the particular article that's carrying them. If you're going to attack sources, go attack the original sources. That's not really possible without the resources of a journalist though, is it? A google search shows that yes, Nadera Shalhoub-Kevorkian did give that lecture, but how would I go about finding out what her sources for that lecture are? How do I check the accuracy of a 1997 article that was presumably written in Hebrew? Robrecht Vanderbeeken definitely made the claim about Israel kidnapping children to steal their organs, although it seems like the website that originally published his column decided to remove that part, according to other articles about it. I can't find either version of the original claim, so I don't know what his sources were. It just isn't practical for most people to fact check every claim in an article, especially when the source for most of them is a different article somewhere. That's why the credibility of news sources matters even though it is strictly speaking a logical fallacy.
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Feb 24, 2019 02:03
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Cat Mattress posted:And I'm sorry but Israel does horrible things to Palestinians all the time, so accusations that Israel is doing something horrible to Palestinians shouldn't be countered by "blood libel!!!!" because that's just too loving easy. I mean, if someone was saying "that sounds like blood libel" against someone being shot or something that is a point, but a claim that they are stealing children's organs is pretty pretty pretty spot on and something you should at least want to check out on two sources or something before just blindly accepting. Like you said, they have done lots of bad things, so it could be true, but if it is it's a thing that shouldn't be hard to find a couple independent sources talking about. If obama did rob the watermelon factory you'd be hearing about it from more than one tweet.
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Feb 24, 2019 02:16
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Hallucinogenic Toreador posted:That's not really possible without the resources of a journalist though, is it? A google search shows that yes, Nadera Shalhoub-Kevorkian did give that lecture, but how would I go about finding out what her sources for that lecture are? Well, I copy-pasted her name into Google News, clicked the first result, and skimmed the article. Took me a whole thirty seconds! That was all I needed to do to get the original source: Palestinian children in East Jerusalem that she spoke or corresponded with in the course of her studies of what occupation does to childhood development. https://www.timesofisrael.com/hebrew-u-professor-claiming-arms-being-tested-on-kids-doesnt-represent-school/ quote:The Hebrew University of Jerusalem on Sunday distanced itself from claims made by a professor in its employ that Israel is experimenting on Palestinian children with new weapons systems, in order to help boost its international weapons sales.
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Feb 25, 2019 03:12
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Main Paineframe posted:Well, I copy-pasted her name into Google News, clicked the first result, and skimmed the article. Took me a whole thirty seconds! Doesn't match the original claim of "Israel gives pharmaceutical firms permits to test out medicines on Palestinian prisoners".
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Feb 25, 2019 17:25
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team overhead smash posted:Doesn't match the original claim of "Israel gives pharmaceutical firms permits to test out medicines on Palestinian prisoners". Now you just nitpicking.
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Feb 25, 2019 17:42
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Herr Bazooka posted:Now you just nitpicking. No, Israel commits a lot of war crimes and human rights abuses. Though phrased a little oddly, what's mentioned in the article fits with the stuff we know Israel already does. Them surveilling Palestinians, tear gassing children, etc isn't new. Granting pharmaceutical companies permits to experiment on Palestinian prisoners as the tweet said however is, as far as I know, a brand new and provocative humans rights abuses claim that is so far unsubstantiated. It's bad to assume it's true because: A) The specifics of this claim do border on blood libel type poo poo b) Any honest mistake of calling Israel out for something they haven't done can be used as propaganda to delegitimise the real human rights abuses and war crimes Israel commits. c) You should only accuse people of things if they've actually done them as a point of basic morality.
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Feb 25, 2019 17:53
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I agree with you completely except for one thing. Blood libel train left the station long long time ago,
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Feb 25, 2019 18:17
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Herr Bazooka posted:I agree with you completely except for one thing. Blood libel train left the station long long time ago, By which you mean...?
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Feb 25, 2019 18:23
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team overhead smash posted:By which you mean...? Depo-Provera thing for example.
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Feb 25, 2019 18:40
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https://twitter.com/JewishWorker/status/1100083395089043456
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Feb 25, 2019 19:01
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Herr Bazooka posted:Depo-Provera thing for example. I'll cut you some slack as a one time deal just because from context I'm not not sure if you know what blood libel is. It's the historic practice of people making up lies about Jewish people about them kidnapping and murdering people as part of Judaism, then using that as an excuse to torture and murder Jews. Blood libel is an atrocity that happened to Jews, not an atrocity committed by them. So not only does it have no connection with Depo-Provera just in terms of "does this even work as a similie" but it will pretty much always be an inappropriate and anti-Semitic thing to say. Not only does it trivialise the suffering of Jewish people historically, but blood libel was an attack on all Jews because it was based on lies about Jewish scripture itself rather than being an attack on specific Jews.
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Feb 25, 2019 19:24
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IMO the claim that Israel uses Depo-Provera for decades to in practice sterilize Ethiopian Jews just as close to blood libel as claim that Israel permits pharma companies to test drugs on Palestinian prisoners or claim that Israel trades in Palestinian children organs.
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Feb 25, 2019 19:43
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Netanyahu: "What distinguishes us from our neighbors is that we denounce and condemn murderers in our midst and pursue them until the end, while they name public squares after child murderers.”
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Feb 25, 2019 19:48
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team overhead smash posted:Doesn't match the original claim of "Israel gives pharmaceutical firms permits to test out medicines on Palestinian prisoners". There's plenty of sources saying that she said those things and that her claims were sourced from her research at Hebrew University. The quality of that research is impossible to evaluate, as it doesn't yet appear to be released. I wouldn't be surprised if it was heavily based on anecdotal evidence, and whether you trust that or not probably correlates pretty strongly with what side of the conflict you tend to sympathize with. More detail is unavailable because no one covered the actual speech itself, but instead focused on specific accusations that best fit their propaganda aims. And it's interesting to see how different the takes are. Palestinian and Arab media focuses heavily on the reports of medical experimentation on prisoners, while Israeli media focuses entirely on the reports of military experimentation on kids. Herr Bazooka posted:IMO the claim that Israel uses Depo-Provera for decades to in practice sterilize Ethiopian Jews just as close to blood libel as claim that Israel permits pharma companies to test drugs on Palestinian prisoners or claim that Israel trades in Palestinian children organs. Things that are verifiably true can't be libel. Things that are verifiably false can be libel. Things that may or may not be true, with no evidence provided for the claim, could be libel.
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Feb 25, 2019 19:53
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Herr Bazooka posted:IMO the claim that Israel uses Depo-Provera for decades to in practice sterilize Ethiopian Jews just as close to blood libel as claim that Israel permits pharma companies to test drugs on Palestinian prisoners or claim that Israel trades in Palestinian children organs. So are you saying those things didn't happen and are just being used as an excuse to harm Jews - which is what blood libel was? Cause it sounds like you're saying the exact opposite and therefore legitimising the lies that blood libel was based on that resulted in massive amounts of completely innocent Jews being kill.
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Feb 25, 2019 19:56
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team overhead smash posted:So are you saying those things didn't happen and are just being used as an excuse to harm Jews - which is what blood libel was? I am saying that none of three thing I mentioned did happen and just being used as excuse to harm Jews. Herr Bazooka fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Feb 25, 2019 |
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Feb 25, 2019 19:59
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Herr Bazooka posted:IMO the claim that Israel uses Depo-Provera for decades to in practice sterilize Ethiopian Jews just as close to blood libel as claim that Israel permits pharma companies to test drugs on Palestinian prisoners or claim that Israel trades in Palestinian children organs. that article linked literally said israel kidnapped children and stole their organs!
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Feb 25, 2019 21:26
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Main Paineframe posted:There's plenty of sources saying that she said those things and that her claims were sourced from her research at Hebrew University. The quality of that research is impossible to evaluate, as it doesn't yet appear to be released. I wouldn't be surprised if it was heavily based on anecdotal evidence, and whether you trust that or not probably correlates pretty strongly with what side of the conflict you tend to sympathize with. I've had a google and it seems to be a load of articles from tiny organisations and blogs I've never heard who all use exactly the same wording. This isn't a case where a lot of sources are confirming the veracity of something and we can therefore trust it, it's a case where a lot of news agencies are repeating a single story as a way of providing content for readers without doing original research. If you look at [url=https://www.socialdifference.columbia.edu/events-1/2019/2/12/unsettling-spaces]the summary of what her talk was meant to be about[/quotes], it seems like it would be much more relevant to the direct quotes we've got about testing out tear gas, cameras etc on children rather than pharmaceutical testing in prisoners as her talk was entitled: "SPEAKING LIFE, SPEAKING DEATH: JERUSALEM’S CHILDREN IN THE “SHOWROOM” OF VIOLENT TECHNOLOGIES" and was described as: "Who speaks life and who speaks death in Occupied East Jerusalem? Children’s words and acts provide unique insight into the daily experiences of domination, colonization and occupation that are part of Israel’s "combat proven" politics. Surveillance, spatial control, imprisonment, torture, and professional training of security personnel have turned the old city into a showroom for states, arms companies, and security agencies to market their technologies as tested, and "combat proven." From over 600 letters written by children in the old city and observations of their daily walks to school, we can learn about the effects and refusals of these technologies of violence as they speak life. The geostrategic significance of controlling Jerusalem for Israel and the sacralized politics invoked to turn it into a “show room” speak death." The pharmaceutical claim could be true or it could be false or it could be kind of true but maybe the originator of the story mixed up some of the details. At the moment there's just not enough to go on to make a call and you should at least hold back until you get evidence before making a call on something like this. Herr Bazooka posted:I am saying that none of three thing I mentioned did happen and just being used as excuse to harm Jews. Well unless I missed any stories the Depo-Prova thing did happen, it's just not as widespread as some of the initial reports suggested and Israel released a report where they said it was all fine and nothing wrong was done but didn't speak to any of the victims which seems like a white wash. With this pharmaceutical thing it could potentially be true - it's been stated to be a claim from an Palestinian academic - but it's sketchy at the moment and too soon to say. However's there's no proof it didn't happen either.
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Feb 25, 2019 22:01
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How much support does a one state solution have on the ground in Palestine? How would a one state solution begin to build support on the ground considering as I understand it the existing Palestinian institutions are all bought into a dead Oslo/two-state framework?
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Feb 26, 2019 00:27
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icantfindaname posted:How much support does a one state solution have on the ground in Palestine? How would a one state solution begin to build support on the ground considering as I understand it the existing Palestinian institutions are all bought into a dead Oslo/two-state framework? I don't know much about PSR but they partnered up with Princeton and the University of Michigan to conduct the Arab Barometer poll so presumably they're pretty solid and they've found "Support for the one-state solution stands at 31% while 67% are opposed to this solution." A real push from Israel for a one-state solution with equal rights might get a lot of support simply for being a road out of the current lovely status quo but hahahahahaha at the chances of Israel ever supporting a one-state solution which isn't slowly ethnically cleansing the Palestinians and taking their land.
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Feb 26, 2019 00:55
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How integrated if at all are non-Israeli-citizen Palestinian residents with Israeli society? Is it like South Africa where many/most of the Bantustan residents worked in the white areas (at least that's how I understand it, it's probably more complicated) or are they completely separated in an open-air prison, as the saying goes? Is there any labor immigration from Palestine to Israel, illegal or otherwise? Is the industry and economic activity that does exist in Gaza and the West Bank owned by Israeli companies mostly or is it natively owned/controlled?
icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Feb 26, 2019 |
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Feb 26, 2019 02:07
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icantfindaname posted:How integrated if at all are non-Israeli-citizen Palestinian residents with Israeli society? Is it like South Africa where many/most of the Bantustan residents worked in the white areas (at least that's how I understand it, it's probably more complicated) or are they completely separated in an open-air prison, as the saying goes? Is there any labor immigration from Palestine to Israel, illegal or otherwise? Is the industry and economic activity that does exist in Gaza and the West Bank owned by Israeli companies mostly or is it natively owned/controlled?
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Feb 26, 2019 02:13
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That seems like a good thing actually in a perverse sense, because if there was no social integration I don't think there would really be any basis for a one-state solution in the first place, only slow ethnic cleansing. If all the black people disappeared in apartheid South Africa that society would have ground to a halt as I understand it, that has to be the case at least to an extent in Israel too I feel like for one-state to work Semi-relatedly, what is the origin of the Arab population with Israeli citizenship? Is it strictly people who held on and stayed after 1947 and their descendants? If you are a Palestinian non-citizen is it possible at all to naturalize as an Israeli citizen, or no? icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Feb 26, 2019 |
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Feb 26, 2019 02:21
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oh israel (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 26, 2019 02:54
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oh jerusalem
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Feb 26, 2019 02:54
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oh my love, oh my love...
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Feb 26, 2019 02:54
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icantfindaname posted:How much support does a one state solution have on the ground in Palestine? How would a one state solution begin to build support on the ground considering as I understand it the existing Palestinian institutions are all bought into a dead Oslo/two-state framework? Poll numbers for both solutions has been on the way down for years, because the Palestinians no longer trust Israel to execute any solution in good faith. The practical implementation of existing deals, such as Oslo, has been lacking at best. icantfindaname posted:Semi-relatedly, what is the origin of the Arab population with Israeli citizenship? Is it strictly people who held on and stayed after 1947 and their descendants? If you are a Palestinian non-citizen is it possible at all to naturalize as an Israeli citizen, or no? Yeah, it's anyone who was still within the borders in 1947. There's no outright ban on Palestinian non-citizens becoming citizens, but most of the avenues via which one could become a citizen are denied to Palestinians, either officially or unofficially. For example, it's normally possible to become an Israeli citizen if you're married to an Israeli citizen...unless you're a resident of the Palestinian territories, in which case there's a law that specifically denies you that right. And while the Law of Return guarantees citizenship to any Jew, even converts, the conversion authorities automatically reject any conversion by a Palestinian as "not sincere". And so on, and so forth.
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Feb 26, 2019 04:29
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team overhead smash posted:Well unless I missed any stories the Depo-Prova thing did happen, it's just not as widespread as some of the initial reports suggested and Israel released a report where they said it was all fine and nothing wrong was done but didn't speak to any of the victims which seems like a white wash. team overhead smash posted:With this pharmaceutical thing it could potentially be true - it's been stated to be a claim from an Palestinian academic - but it's sketchy at the moment and too soon to say. However's there's no proof it didn't happen either.
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Feb 26, 2019 18:16
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look, guys, we only sterilized the untermenschen without their consent a little
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Feb 26, 2019 18:34
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Good read: https://40yrs.blogspot.com/2019/02/remember-when-i-called-binyamin.html Remember When I Called Binyamin Netanyahu the Greatest Threat to Israel Ever?* Well, now that his two most formidable election opponents have made an agreement to campaign together, Bibi is inviting the equivalent of Ku Klux Klan to join his government: The Israeli election cycle currently underway has been awash in anti-Arab racism for a while now. But things just got much, much worse. On Wednesday, Haaretz reported that Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu pushed the Jewish Home Party to join another party, the “Jewish Power” party, which inherited its leaders and politics from the well-known racist Meir Kahane. Kahana’s Kach party was outlawed in 1994, the same year it was listed as a terrorist organization by the U.S. State Department, after a supporter, Baruch Goldstein, massacred 29 Arabs at prayer in Hebron and the party issued its support. And now, in 2019, it’s back. If the Jewish Home Party votes in favor of the merger, it will mean that Michael Ben-Ari, banned from entering the U.S. for belonging to a terrorist organization, will be part of the ruling coalition of the Jewish State. It will mean that Itamar Ben Gvir, convicted of inciting racism and supporting terrorism, will be welcomed in the halls of the Knesset as a lawmaker. It will mean that Kahana’s legacy — including his attempts to strip non-Jewish Israelis of their citizenship, ban marriage between Jews and non-Jews, and transfer Israel’s Arab population out of Israel — will once again have advocates in the Israeli government. ... More at the link.
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Feb 26, 2019 19:04
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Luckily there wasn't a signed Declaration of Racism when we surreptitiously and sometimes forcibly sterilized Ethiopean women without their consent or over their objections, so it's all good. E: I've just been informed that the Tuskeegee experiments were a-ok because nobody explicitly said anything about being a racist
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Feb 26, 2019 19:27
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Herr Bazooka posted:Which Depo-Provera thing happened? The one where a NGO injected some women with Depo-Provera when they were in refugee camps in Ethiopia or the one where thousands of Israeli citizens were injected over decades on orders of Israeli government with reason given "Israel is very racist"? Those two are light years apart. The actual one which happened in reality and is in no way equivalent to blood libel. quote:What kind on proof it has to be to prove this negative? Well I dropped the professor an email asking her to clarify is she said this. If she says "No, they misrepresented me" then that would pretty easily prove it false, yeah?
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Feb 26, 2019 22:21
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Main Paineframe posted:There's no outright ban on Palestinian non-citizens becoming citizens, but most of the avenues via which one could become a citizen are denied to Palestinians, either officially or unofficially. For example, it's normally possible to become an Israeli citizen if you're married to an Israeli citizen...unless you're a resident of the Palestinian territories, in which case there's a law that specifically denies you that right. And while the Law of Return guarantees citizenship to any Jew, even converts, the conversion authorities automatically reject any conversion by a Palestinian as "not sincere". And so on, and so forth.
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Feb 26, 2019 22:33
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I've heard back from Professor Nadera Shalhoub-Kevorkian and she never made the pharmaceutical company claims that those articles allege.
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Feb 26, 2019 23:01
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So is there a chance Netenyahu's new alliance with what's basically the neo-Kach party will backfire? I know the new alliance would get some new votes from the merger, but it seems like there would also be some Likud voters going "oh hell no, gently caress Michael Ben-Ari and Itamar Ben Gvir, I'm not voting for an alliance with them in it".
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Feb 27, 2019 00:54
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Saladin Rising posted:So is there a chance Netenyahu's new alliance with what's basically the neo-Kach party will backfire? I know the new alliance would get some new votes from the merger, but it seems like there would also be some Likud voters going "oh hell no, gently caress Michael Ben-Ari and Itamar Ben Gvir, I'm not voting for an alliance with them in it". https://twitter.com/RaoulWootliff/status/1100818653426130944
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Feb 27, 2019 19:08
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Saladin Rising posted:So is there a chance Netenyahu's new alliance with what's basically the neo-Kach party will backfire? I know the new alliance would get some new votes from the merger, but it seems like there would also be some Likud voters going "oh hell no, gently caress Michael Ben-Ari and Itamar Ben Gvir, I'm not voting for an alliance with them in it". I guess it depends on where the couches-on-the-hills-watching-the-bombs-drop-with-popcorn voters were last election.
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Feb 27, 2019 23:06
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