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Feb 26, 2019 14:27
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Chuck Boone posted:Jorge Ramos and his team of five journalists were deported early this morning after spending the evening in Miraflores Palace last night, some of it against their will. As pointed out earlier in the thread, Ramos was there to interview Maduro. Boots Riley brought this up on Twitter, but the video seems weird. Why dig straight out of a garbage truck versus going to the trash bins first, which would be cleaner, you wouldn’t have to follow, less of a chance it’s mixed with something inedible? Not saying it’s definitive staged, but after the media’s lies about the “bridge closure”/truck fire/etc it’s hard to take them at their word.
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Feb 26, 2019 14:33
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uninterrupted posted:Boots Riley brought this up on Twitter, but the video seems weird. Why dig straight out of a garbage truck versus going to the trash bins first, which would be cleaner, you wouldn’t have to follow, less of a chance it’s mixed with something inedible? I'm happy that you've lived a life so privileged that you cannot imagine being hungry and desperate to the point that these considerations wouldn't matter.
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Feb 26, 2019 14:37
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uninterrupted posted:Boots Riley brought this up on Twitter, but the video seems weird. Why dig straight out of a garbage truck versus going to the trash bins first, which would be cleaner, you wouldn’t have to follow, less of a chance it’s mixed with something inedible? The thing is there is far more competition around the trash bins. Back where I used to live, people just piled their trash on a corner of the street for the garbage truck to pick up at night. People used to wait for others to take their garbage out so they could start looking through it for food right away, and I'm talking about literal crowds descending on mounds of trash to look for anything edible. By chasing the garbage truck, you're maybe more likely to find stuff that other people overlooked or at the very least, you don't have as many other people 'competing' for it. I wish I was kidding.
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Feb 26, 2019 14:43
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uninterrupted posted:Boots Riley brought this up on Twitter, but the video seems weird. Why dig straight out of a garbage truck versus going to the trash bins first, which would be cleaner, you wouldn’t have to follow, less of a chance it’s mixed with something inedible? You really are a cretin.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:00
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uninterrupted posted:Boots Riley brought this up on Twitter, but the video seems weird. Why dig straight out of a garbage truck versus going to the trash bins first, which would be cleaner, you wouldn’t have to follow, less of a chance it’s mixed with something inedible? I see you and the aptly-named Boots are indulging the same obfuscation of reality that Maduro illustrated yesterday during his meltdown. By the way: the line of argument that "people are starving, but maybe these two individuals are crisis actors that Univision hired..." is just as hollow and idiotic as "Maduro sent henchman to the borders to deny aid to the point of killing people, but maybe the crisis actors purposefully burned one of the trucks..." It is elevating the trivial to obfuscate the meaningful (and abhorrent) reality of a dictatorship strangling its citizens.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:10
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uninterrupted posted:Boots Riley brought this up on Twitter, but the video seems weird. Why dig straight out of a garbage truck versus going to the trash bins first, which would be cleaner, you wouldn’t have to follow, less of a chance it’s mixed with something inedible? Not sure,.I'm not an expert in eating literal trash out of the garbage, but I suspect neither is millionaire filmmaker Boots Riley, at least in the literal sense.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:16
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uninterrupted posted:Boots Riley brought this up on Twitter, but the video seems weird. Why dig straight out of a garbage truck versus going to the trash bins first, which would be cleaner, you wouldn’t have to follow, less of a chance it’s mixed with something inedible? 
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Feb 26, 2019 15:17
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Private Witt posted:I see you and the aptly-named Boots are indulging the same obfuscation of reality that Maduro illustrated yesterday during his meltdown. Well there’s video of the armed “non-violent protestors” burning down their truck; it brings everything else into question. All I said was that there were some seeming inconsistencies, which just got explained. Tell me, did you blindly believe the news during the ramp up to Afghanistan? Iraq? Syria? Libya?
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Feb 26, 2019 15:19
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uninterrupted posted:Boots Riley brought this up on Twitter, but the video seems weird. Why dig straight out of a garbage truck versus going to the trash bins first, which would be cleaner, you wouldn’t have to follow, less of a chance it’s mixed with something inedible? Boots Riley, the son of a university professor and an attorney who grew up upper middle class in the unparalleled comfort and stability of the late 20th century United States, should maybe stop trying to discourse about the right way to eat garbage while starving. He is probably the worst example of the left-wing ideological colonialist for whom Latin Americans are not real people but only rhetorical constructs who exist to act out political fantasies about the CIA and the coming revolution which will result in him becoming Didactic Film Commissar. His comments throughout the Venezuela crisis have been utterly disgusting and reflective of how divorced from reality the Western left is on this issue.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:20
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uninterrupted posted:Well there’s video of the armed “non-violent protestors” burning down their truck; it brings everything else into question. All I said was that there were some seeming inconsistencies, which just got explained. I truly wish you were capable of shame or even just basic loving empathy.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:22
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You might remember Eva Golinger as an early, outspoken support of Chavez throughout his presidency. If I recall correctly she spent quite a bit of time living in Venezuela and was an important connection between chavismo and the English-speaking world. She's weighed in on the Ramos issue: https://twitter.com/evagolinger/status/1100360443250556929 "By accepting to be interviewed by Jorge Ramos, Maduro and his team knew of his journalistic style full well. If they didn't like his questions, then the interview would simply end. But confiscating his equipment, recording and telephones, detaining them and deporting them is the stuff of tyrants". Ramos and his team were escorted to the Simon Bolivar International Airport this morning by SEBIN agents. I think they've now left the country: https://twitter.com/NTN24ve/status/1100386366528065537
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Feb 26, 2019 15:24
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Randarkman posted:I truly wish you were capable of shame or even just basic loving empathy. Aren’t you the dude that was cheerleading a car bomb that murdered a bunch of people? Look in the mirror. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 26, 2019 15:27
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I don't agree with Boots's take but considering that the entirety of mainstream media is in the process of manufacturing consent for an invasion and consuming information about Venezuela that isn't propaganda here is impossible, his perspective is understandable. With the crippling sanctions I have no doubt that people in Venezuela are starving and eating out of trash cans. His invitation to come to Oakland if they want to see starving homeless people still stands though. Maduro is bad, the sanctions are monstrous and starving Venezuelans is the entire point, and things are only going to be made worse by further US involvement. There's no reason that all of these things are not simultaneously true.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:28
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uninterrupted posted:Aren’t you the dude that was cheerleading a car bomb that murdered a bunch of people? Look in the mirror. No. I don't really have any idea what you are talking about. I just know it makes me loving furious. I am also fully capable of shame and empathy, it's actually really loving easy, it's just that you constantly showcase that you completely lack the capacity for both of them. PS: It's even loving worse if you are just trolling and being ironic. Then it's not just you being a fool. Iron Twinkie posted:Maduro is bad, the sanctions are monstrous and starving Venezuelans is the entire point, and things are only going to be made worse by further US involvement. There's no reason that all of these things are not simultaneously true. People are not starving because of the sanctions. That is not to say the sanctions are without effect, but the food crisis far predates the harsher sanctions. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Feb 26, 2019 |
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Feb 26, 2019 15:31
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"Eating out of a garbage truck is a false flag" must be a new low point for this thread.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:33
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M. Discordia posted:His comments throughout the Venezuela crisis have been utterly disgusting and reflective of how divorced from reality the Western left is on this issue. Most of the political left in the US, with the exception of the far left like Bernie, Ilhan Omar, etc. seem to be fairly unified against Maduro's dictatorship. A welcome reprieve of bipartisanship. Bernie has even taken a somewhat aggressive line on Maduro, all things considered, saying that the last election was not free and fair and being supportive of humanitarian aid -- but he does still refuse to call Maduro a dictator.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:35
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For gently caress's sake, if you're gonna say they're "crisis actors", you're just as low as Fox-News-loving conservatives.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:39
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Reminder that the phenomenon that is people eating garbage to live exploded about 2-3 years ago, well before the first US sanctions targeting non-individuals came into effect. The first US sanctions to target Venezuelan bonds came at the end of 2017. From May 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6HeQUxagR4 From May 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AKs36_WfgM This is something that started to happen around 2015-2016 in large enough numbers for the media to notice because of years of disastrous policy from a kleptocracy that is not at all interested in governing for the benefit of Venezuelans. The post-2017 sanctions, and in particular the most recent sanctions against the oil industry, are definitely going to negatively impact the lives of Venezuelan people. I do not agree with them and I think they should be lifted. But blaming the sanctions for this ignores the fact that it was well underway before the first ones were ever put into effect. The images that Ramos tried to show Maduro are not new to Venezuelans. We've been seeing them over and over and over for years.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:39
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Negrostrike posted:For gently caress's sake, if you're gonna say they're "crisis actors", you're just as low as Fox-News-loving conservatives. I mean we literally saw people purposefully lighting an “aid” truck on fire, kinda silly to dismiss the thought. Surprising how many pro-US-coup folks are really opposed to critically looking at media reports.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:42
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Randarkman posted:People are not starving because of the sanctions. That is not to say the sanctions are without effect, but the food crisis far predates the harsher sanctions. Let's assume that is true. What does that change materially about the current situation and what the US should do? Our intentions are malicious and nothing will be made better by further involvement.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:43
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Iron Twinkie posted:I don't agree with Boots's take but considering that the entirety of mainstream media is in the process of manufacturing consent for an invasion and consuming information about Venezuela that isn't propaganda here is impossible, his perspective is understandable. With the crippling sanctions I have no doubt that people in Venezuela are starving and eating out of trash cans. His invitation to come to Oakland if they want to see starving homeless people still stands though. You accuse people of "manufacturing" opinions and posting propaganda in a post where you have just repeated the easily disprovable LIE (and dictator talking point) that the sanctions are starving Venezuelans. Demented hypocrisy.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:44
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quote:Man: This is garbage. This is the situation that we're in. Can you imagine it? We can't live like this. We need to remove the president. We want to get rid of him. We're street people, but we want to get rid of the president. We want to get rid of him. We can't live like this like this, eating garbage. I'm almost 36 years old and this is the first time in my life that I'm doing this [eating garbage], for myself and for my children. the guy directly contradicts himself one sentence later. not saying that he is a crisis actor, just that you clearly can't take every word he says as 100% true. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 26, 2019 15:47
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We know the regime didn't burn the trucks, though. There's clear video evidence that the initial media reports blaming it on the regime were all wrong. The reality of it is that there's tons of propaganda coming out of both sides and very few genuinely neutral parties on the ground, so it's possible to cast doubt on almost anything from the side you like less. But you have to draw the line somewhere, because frankly, if you don't believe anything that's coming out of the conflict then why are you even bothering to follow it? And conspiratorial "everything the other side says is a false flag fake news conspiracy" thinking contributes absolutely nothing meaningful to the thread. Yeah, it's entirely possible that the garbage truck video could easily have been staged. Just like it's also possible that the state TV video showing non-food in the burned aid trucks could easily have been staged. Either way, we're not going to get anywhere just shouting "FAKE NEWS" back and forth at each other. So can we just focus on the stuff that's more generally confirmed and stop quibbling about the authenticity of specific tweet anecdotes? Regardless of whether the garbage truck video was real, we already know that Venezuela is in a serious food crisis and many people are going hungry, so the authenticity of that specific video doesn't really matter. Regardless of whether the burned gas masks and wire coils in the truck were real or planted, we already know that the aid trucks were accompanied by molotov-throwing mobs, so there's more than sufficient grounds to criticize that so-called "peaceful aid" even if it was just food and medicine and nothing else. So there's no need to argue back and forth about the authenticity of individual videos, except to prove that propaganda exists, which isn't much of a breakthrough.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:47
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Main Paineframe posted:So can we just focus on the stuff that's more generally confirmed and stop quibbling about the authenticity of specific tweet anecdotes? Regardless of whether the garbage truck video was real, we already know that Venezuela is in a serious food crisis and many people are going hungry, so the authenticity of that specific video doesn't really matter. Regardless of whether the burned gas masks and wire coils in the truck were real or planted, we already know that the aid trucks were accompanied by molotov-throwing mobs, so there's more than sufficient grounds to criticize that so-called "peaceful aid" even if it was just food and medicine and nothing else. So there's no need to argue back and forth about the authenticity of individual videos, except to prove that propaganda exists, which isn't much of a breakthrough. While the people throwing molotovs may have been acting rashly or even stupidly to outside observers, I am not going to blame them for acting like that. People in Venezuela have a right to be angry at the government, and when things get out of hand, the blame must be placed at the feet of the ones who allowed things to get so bad that things like that could happen in the first place. Iron Twinkie posted:Let's assume that is true. What does that change materially about the current situation and what the US should do? Our intentions are malicious and nothing will be made better by further involvement. It is true. I'll leave it to people in Chuck and others to voice their opinions on what should and not be done. If I read it right he's against the harsher sanctions. Still they are not the root cause of Venezuela's crisis however much you might like it to be.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:53
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Love 2 eat trash + burn my own CIA weapons on TV 4 Western $$$
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Feb 26, 2019 15:55
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Ruptly still has a camera crew on the Santander bridge looking into Venezuela. It's live streaming now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLFWFD5CfpE Things look pretty quiet right now. There's 6-7 relaxed officers on the Venezuela side and no protesters on the bridge.
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Feb 26, 2019 15:56
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GoluboiOgon posted:the guy directly contradicts himself one sentence later. not saying that he is a crisis actor, just that you clearly can't take every word he says as 100% true. He does not contradict himself in English translation. The statement is quite consistent - until now he has never had to eat garbage, but now he has to do so every day. Is the Spanish clearer? Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Feb 26, 2019 |
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Feb 26, 2019 15:58
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Randarkman posted:It is true. I'll leave it to people in Chuck and others to voice their opinions on what should and not be done. If I read it right he's against the harsher sanctions. Still they are not the root cause of Venezuela's crisis however much you might like it to be. Again Maduro is a bad man but I appreciate your attempts to straw man me as some sort of apologist. If I'm skeptical of situation inside of Venezuela and how it got there, it's because getting good unbiased information is next to impossible. What we do have is a wealth of information on what further US involvement leads to. Especially involvement lead by a well documented war criminal.
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Feb 26, 2019 16:01
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GoluboiOgon posted:the guy directly contradicts himself one sentence later. not saying that he is a crisis actor, just that you clearly can't take every word he says as 100% true. It's not a contradiction if you just work a bit on your reading comprehension and look at the context. I read it as him saying that in 20 years he's never had to eat garbage and that now he has to do it every day. Anyway, even if it was a contradiction, when talking people mispeak or have trouble expressing themselves clearly all the time. Just because you (well not you, but there's a couple of people here like that) can land a trivial "gotcha" on someone doesn't invalidate everything about their argument or situation. Iron Twinkie posted:Again Maduro is a bad man but I appreciate your attempts to straw man me as some sort of apologist. If I'm skeptical of situation inside of Venezuela and how it got there, it's because getting good unbiased information is next to impossible. What we do have is a wealth of information on what further US involvement leads to. Especially involvement lead by a well documented war criminal. I am not trying to paint you as a straw man, I am accusing you of being an apologist. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Feb 26, 2019 |
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Feb 26, 2019 16:01
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In other news, Maduro pretty much said during an interview that Guaido is facing charges when (if) he comes back to the country for disobeying an order to stay in the country. When asked if he would allow opposition Venezuela leader Juan Guaido back into the country, Maduro said. "He can leave and come back and will have to see the face of justice because justice had prohibited him from him leaving the country." "He has to respect the laws," Maduro said.
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Feb 26, 2019 16:02
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He says the same in Spanish. Another Spanish speaker could verify it or give a clearer translation. It's clear that when he says "this is the first time in my life" he's talking about a period of his life. I've never had a beard before in my life. This is the first time in my life that I've had a beard (this doesn't mean that I grew the beard today, February 26 2019; it means that this is the first period of my life in which I've had a beard. Now, I have a beard every day, but before I grew the beard, I used to not have a beard). Man, I can't believe I have to explain this. People bending over to silence the voice of the poor and the oppressed is really sad.
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Feb 26, 2019 16:04
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Randarkman posted:I am not trying to paint you as a straw man, I am accusing you of being an apologist. You can both believe that someone is Gaddafi or even Saddam levels of evil and understand that whatever we would do to that country would be worse.
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Feb 26, 2019 16:14
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I see people eating out of trash cans everyday. I agree that leaders should be held accountable for starvation, but if Trump were shown a similar video there would be zero empathy and the US, unlike the PSUV, have the resources to fix the homeless and poverty crisis in America. The notion Trump led regime change is going to feed people is absurd. They don’t feed people in their own country. They are going to bomb them into submission. Using that video to argue for regime change, when the US backed forces like Guiado obviously don’t give a poo poo and just want their TV and money back, is laughable. The US is making the crisis worse in Venezuela and hoping for a complete economic collapse. Maduro isn’t the one siphoning 25-30 billion per year in sanctions, denying billion of dollars worth of medical supplies, and cutting off Venezuela from global finance. Guaido completely backs this up and is 100% culpable.
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Feb 26, 2019 16:20
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Iron Twinkie posted:You can both believe that someone is Gaddafi or even Saddam levels of evil and understand that whatever we would do to that country would be worse. So no help should be given to the opposition and the protestors, and Maduro and the PSUV should be trusted to remain and be able to solve the crisis they have created, exacerbated, denied and benefitted from? Also consider that someone else might not be American. I have to add that I don't believe Maduro and the PSUV to be anywhere near as evil and oppressive as essentially any Middle Eastern autocrat, though they have essentially wrecked the country. What has me interested in this, is that they haven't gotten quite as strong a grip on power and the miltiary and haven't completely eroded democratic instiutions yet, though in the recent 5-10 years much has been done to undermine them. What this means is that the Venezuealans in opposition to this regime can still prevail (maybe even through constiutional means as the opposition has been trying for years and in a way is still trying to do), and can possibly do so without it resulting in a civil war or a foreign invasion, and that has me hopeful and excited. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Feb 26, 2019 |
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Feb 26, 2019 16:20
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Randarkman posted:So no help should be given to the opposition and the protestors, and Maduro and the PSUV should be trusted to remain and be able to solve the crisis they have created, exacerbated, denied and benefitted from? The US should not intervene. The US never improves a situation by intervening. This was discussed upthread.
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Feb 26, 2019 16:22
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Randarkman posted:So no help should be given to the opposition and the protestors, and Maduro and the PSUV should be trusted to remain and be able to solve the crisis they have created, exacerbated, denied and benefitted from? If an American is claiming they don't believe their government has the right tools or ability to help then yeah that is a fairly solid stance imo, yes its a humanitarian crisis but this is not the first and definitely won't be the last the US avoids/ignores/fucks up. As a Canadian I'm just not sure what my government can even do aside from throwing token support behind whatever the US does, and maybe sending some homeopaths.
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Feb 26, 2019 16:29
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Not slapping an economic siege on top of a humanitarian crisis would seem like a no-brainer to me, but then again I remember that the humanitarian crisis is sort of an accessory to US policy.
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Feb 26, 2019 16:33
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Hi new posters! Welcome to the Venezuela thread! Please read the OP or you’re going to make a bunch of mistakes and come across as an idiot.
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Feb 26, 2019 16:38
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and remember! when the regime burns aid trucks, it is proof of their monstrosity. when the opposition burns aid trucks, it's an understandable whoopsie.
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Feb 26, 2019 16:41
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