|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:and remember! when the regime burns aid trucks, it is proof of their monstrosity. when the opposition burns aid trucks, it's an understandable whoopsie. Mind explaining how that's contradictory? The video appears to show an accident, and one side was trying to get those trucks through while the other was blocking them with riot police.
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 16:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 13:51 |
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:I see people eating out of trash cans everyday. Where do you live?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 16:56
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Mind explaining how that's contradictory? The video appears to show an accident, and one side was trying to get those trucks through while the other was blocking them with riot police. hold on, let me put on my liberal interventionist hat and lanyard. what kind of monster burns aid intended for the poor and suffering of Venezuela? what kind of grotesque animal would, knowing there are people suffering, set aid on fire in front of them. how could you possibly support the kind of people who do such a thing. apologists claim it wasn't intentional, but after years of opposition-endorsed street violence, when your best defense for taunting starving people is incompetence, you are making an extremely poor argument for your continued leadership. we can see from this chain of events that the opposition leadership is at best not up to the challenge of helping the people of venezuela (at worst, actively opposed) and all options should be on the table to have him replaced with someone more competent. it's the fun part about interventionist logic, using the word fun extremely loosely. there's almost no country on earth it doesn't justify knocking over. very one-size-fits-all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 16:58
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:Most of the political left in the US, with the exception of the far left like Bernie, Ilhan Omar, etc. seem to be fairly unified against Maduro's dictatorship. A welcome reprieve of bipartisanship. that noted far left communist, Bernard "Double Lenin" Sanders, taking the stance that Maduro is bad but also US intervention is bad and perhaps there is some middle ground, say, the Red Cross or the UN delivering the aid instead of the US government, is somehow controversial, makes me think you perhaps don't have the best interests of the Venezuelan people at heart.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:03
|
|
|
seizure later posted:that noted far left communist, Bernard "Double Lenin" Sanders, taking the stance that Maduro is bad but also US intervention is bad and perhaps there is some middle ground, say, the Red Cross or the UN delivering the aid instead of the US government, is somehow controversial, makes me think you perhaps don't have the best interests of the Venezuelan people at heart. Bernie has largely been right and handled this well, if (understandably) cautiously as far as I've gathered. Anyway, while Venezuela desperately needs aid, it also needs the PSUV regime to end.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:07
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:and remember! when the regime burns aid trucks, it is proof of their monstrosity. when the opposition burns aid trucks, it's an understandable whoopsie. You're wrong. When the regime burns aid trucks, it is proof of their monstrosity. When the opposition burns aid trucks, it's an act of loving god. They just happen to burn. No actor is necessary, and the cause is the "clash" between the two sides. Never mind that the face of christian fascism, Mike Pence, maintains that the pro-maduro side burned the trucks, and that this is super important, even yesterday, after enlightened D&D posters definitively declared that the burnings were extremely unimportant.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:07
|
|
|
seizure later posted:that noted far left communist, Bernard "Double Lenin" Sanders, taking the stance that Maduro is bad but also US intervention is bad and perhaps there is some middle ground, say, the Red Cross or the UN delivering the aid instead of the US government, is somehow controversial, makes me think you perhaps don't have the best interests of the Venezuelan people at heart. As has been explained innumerate times and will be posted once again: the Maduro regime has long taken the public stance that they do not need aid, and they refuse the majority of it. Only very, very recently have they relented and let in slightly more aid than the pittance before. Saying "just give it to the Red Cross" has been posted, and debunked many times in this thread.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:08
|
|
|
seizure later posted:that noted far left communist, Bernard "Double Lenin" Sanders, taking the stance that Maduro is bad but also US intervention is bad and perhaps there is some middle ground, say, the Red Cross or the UN delivering the aid instead of the US government, is somehow controversial, makes me think you perhaps don't have the best interests of the Venezuelan people at heart. There is no middle ground as long as the US is pushing the overthrow of the Venezuelan government. You either support Libya-style open air slave markets in post-war Venezuela, or you’re opposed to intervention. As we’ve seen, the opposition doesn’t recognize any elections as ‘legitimate’ unless they win, so pushing that narrative just pushes Venezuela closer to war.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:12
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:There is no middle ground as long as the US is pushing the overthrow of the Venezuelan government. oh I'm completely opposed to US intervention I just thought it was funny that Bernie Sanders was being described as far left, and that apparently anything short of saying "Maduro must go regardless of what will befall Venezuela's citizens now and in the future" is a really loving bleak stance.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:16
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:hold on, let me put on my liberal interventionist hat and lanyard. I mean, they did still attack an aid convoy. That's pretty bad even if it was one of the defenders who accidentally did the most damage. Now, obviously, Abrams being involved does mean there was a chance it wasn't delivering the sort of aid you can eat, but that's still not a reason to go in tear-gas canisters blazing. Just stop the trucks, inspect the trucks, and let all those dozens of journalists from around the world who've shown up for the spectacle have a look as you see what they're carrying.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:21
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/_whitneywebb/status/1100229377047085057
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:21
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:There is no middle ground as long as the US is pushing the overthrow of the Venezuelan government. Libya after the overthrow of Gaddhafi is the result of factors specific to Libya, particularly the, to a large degree, non-existence of any comprehensive political or democratic infastructure in the country from which to rebuild and organize the country (Gaddhafi was the kind of dictator who deliberately promoted rival institutions, made them dependent on his personal patronage and ensured they remained too weak to oppose him), thus between that and the intervening powers largely just declaring victory and going home once the military operations were over, you ended up with a country that had a largely impotent government with no real infrastructure or instiutions with which to govern the country, thus resulting in things like parts of the country essentially coming under separate authorities, ISIS getting a foothold once that became popular and the slave markets you love to bring up. It was not the result of the Libyan rebels being inherently savage beasts undeserving of self-governance, or open air slave markets being the only plausible outcome to a megalomaniacal dictator (however much you might like to bring how wonderful Libya was, Libyans as a whole were rather sick of him, and he also wasn't holding out on selling oil to the West at this time or denying Western oil companies access to Libya) In any case, that does not describe Venezuela, which is not like Libya. Nor is it like Syria or Iraq or Egypt. A US intervention or civil war would be bad, but the thing is that that is not what people who want Maduro gone want, nor what they believe is necessary.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:23
|
|
|
seizure later posted:oh I'm completely opposed to US intervention I just thought it was funny that Bernie Sanders was being described as far left, and that apparently anything short of saying "Maduro must go regardless of what will befall Venezuela's citizens now and in the future" is a really loving bleak stance. Oh, ok. I’m just still always surprised by large crew of “well he’s EVIL so he’s gotta go but the us shouldn’t intervene maybe?” while ignoring a host of worse dictators all over the world. It’s a feels like a warmup for another “there are yazidi people on a mountain ROGHT NOW WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING whoops new foreverwar” kinda moment.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:23
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:As has been explained innumerate times and will be posted once again: the Maduro regime has long taken the public stance that they do not need aid, and they refuse the majority of it. Only very, very recently have they relented and let in slightly more aid than the pittance before. Debunked in what way, being effective? Sure I can see that, but I'm still not sure why that means I should support escalating forces
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:24
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Just stop the trucks, inspect the trucks, and let all those dozens of journalists from around the world who've shown up for the spectacle have a look as you see what they're carrying. Uhhh that’s obviously what the people slinging Molotov cocktails were there to prevent.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:25
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:This time its different! I am very smart.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:25
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:Uhhh that’s obviously what the people slinging Molotov cocktails were there to prevent. They're loving riot police. Just put your shields up, make sure you're wearing helmets, and bring some journalists along with you (ideally Western ones). Think the opposition are going to want to see a New York Times foreign correspondent go up like a Roman candle?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:29
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:and remember! when the regime burns aid trucks, it is proof of their monstrosity. when the opposition burns aid trucks, it's an understandable whoopsie. Why are "peaceful protesters" throwing improvised anti-tank explosive weapons? Would regime change connoisseurs endorse the use of molotov cocktails by the yellow jackets in France?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:31
|
|
|
CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Why are "peaceful protesters" throwing improvised anti-tank explosive weapons? yes. And more seriously the situations are remotely comparable. Compared to you my modest intellect must seem like an unscaleable mountain. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:32
|
|
|
CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Why are "peaceful protesters" throwing improvised anti-tank explosive weapons? I mean, given that there's a non-zero chance that the cop you're going to light up is one of Macron's cronies who dressed himself up for a taste of that sweet, sweet police brutality, I'm certainly seeing the appeal.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:34
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:Libya after the overthrow of Gaddhafi is the result of factors specific to Libya, particularly the, to a large degree, non-existence of any comprehensive political or democratic infastructure in the country from which to rebuild and organize the country (Gaddhafi was the kind of dictator who deliberately promoted rival institutions, made them dependent on his personal patronage and ensured they remained too weak to oppose him), thus between that and the intervening powers largely just declaring victory and going home once the military operations were over, you ended up with a country that had a largely impotent government with no real infrastructure or instiutions with which to govern the country, thus resulting in things like parts of the country essentially coming under separate authorities, ISIS getting a foothold once that became popular and the slave markets you love to bring up. It was not the result of the Libyan rebels being inherently savage beasts undeserving of self-governance, or open air slave markets being the only plausible outcome to a megalomaniacal dictator (however much you might like to bring how wonderful Libya was, Libyans as a whole were rather sick of him, and he also wasn't holding out on selling oil to the West at this time or denying Western oil companies access to Libya) yeah, in Libya there was an opposition with armed popular support and clear divisions in an ongoing civil war. absolutely the single easiest lay-up you could possibly have, from the perspective of a regime change enthusiast. nice convenient list of people who take over afterwards, nice convenient list of their military assets and objectives, nice simple regime change. boom, done, and then the IMF presents the bill. as everyone's favorite American political commentator put it, "we have a lot of debt, and they have a lot of oil." whereas in Venezuela you have an opposition whose strategy for taking over has been 1. "please riot" 2. "Mom said it's my turn to be President" 3. *screaming, setting aid truck on fire.* sure am enthusiastic about the power THEY'RE going to command through the government institutions they've been proclaiming illegitimate for the last few years. from all available evidence, Libya is just about the cleanest you can play this game. and we took them from having the highest standard of living in Africa to open-air slave markets. but hey, surely Donald Trump, Mike Pence, and Elliot Abrams will demonstrate more commitment to rebuilding the country than Nicolas Sarkozy, Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton. we've learned since then. right.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:35
|
|
|
I mean, even if the interventionist power does decide to become long-term involved in post-regime-change institution-building, recent examples are not exactly encouraging. Iraq got the best (tm) institution-building money could buy and it ended up *checks notes* spawning ISIS. Then we have Afghanistan, which worked as well as we all know, and uhhhhhhh Kosovo? There are problematic aspects there as well, but at least it's not actively generating a death cult from the ex-armed forces.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:40
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:So no help should be given to the opposition and the protestors, and Maduro and the PSUV should be trusted to remain and be able to solve the crisis they have created, exacerbated, denied and benefitted from? Realistically the US options to positively effect change in the region are extremely limited. We can send aid through a neutral third party such as the Red Cross. Maybe we could facilitate and encourage a dialogue between Venezuela and its surrounding countries but even that might be a bridge too far. The reality is that the United States not only has no credibility when it comes to Latin America, it has negative credibility which has been well earned. We have an ugly and bloody history that in no small part was written by the man who is currently in charge of our efforts with Venezuela. Even in a scenario where the Trump administration is kicked out of office and replaced with one that has legitimate humanitarian goals there is a great deal of work and time before we can climb out of the pit we dug for ourselves before any direct involvement wont be interpreted (rightly) as more imperialism.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:41
|
|
|
This is in the running for the most naked attempt at disinformation I have ever seen. 1. At no point in the video does anyone say anything to suggest that a) they were hired to be there, b) they are upset that they are not getting paid, or c) they want to re-enter Venezuela. 2. At 1:08 one of the protesters says, "Venezuela libre va! Libre!" which means roughly "Venezuela will be free! Free!" and the other protesters start clapping and cheering. 3. At the end of the video, the journalist who was standing right there listening to the conversation identifies the men as "encapuchados" (which literally means "hooded persons"), which is a word used in Venezuela to mean "protesters". The premise of the tweet's assertion is idiotic. Why would these people be admitting to serious crimes to the National Guard after they've spent all afternoon fighting each other? I guess getting arrested is one way of getting sent back to Venezuela? 
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:41
|
|
|
Iron Twinkie posted:If I'm skeptical of situation inside of Venezuela and how it got there, it's because getting good unbiased information is next to impossible. You continue to post bullshit. It is not "next to impossible" to get unbiased information out of Venezuela. -WHO has documented the crisis in communicable diseases, demonstrating the complete breakdown in medical care. -The United Nations has documented the refugee crisis, demonstrating the complete breakdown in people's ability to feed themselves. -Hyperinflation is well-documented in numerous unbiased places, demonstrating the abject failure of economic policies. -The collapse in oil production is well-documented with unbiased sources, demonstrating the theft of oil revenue by the regime. -And EVERY step that the Maduro regime has taken to destroy the democratic levers in this country has been painstakingly and meticulously documented by Venezuelans in this thread for years. Years of posts. This did not happen overnight. You are purposefully keeping yourself ignorant, and then falsely stating that we're all ignorant, laughably parroting dictator-sponsored lies like "the US sanctions caused starvation." You know nothing, because you are actively trying to know nothing. This is a massive, well-documented crisis.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:41
|
|
|
False if diminutive
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:44
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:You continue to post bullshit. It is not "next to impossible" to get unbiased information out of Venezuela. The UN has also stated that the US led efforts are acts of deliberate provocation so fair enough? I'm sorry if my distrust and skepticism bothers you. It doesn't come from any sympathy towards Maduro but an understanding that any media that gets presented in the United States is going to be extremely slanted. It also comes from the indisputable fact that US led efforts are to make things worse not better. I acknowledge that I will never have a picture of what is happening in Venezuela and what the answers are at anything approaching the level of people that are actually living there but Trump sending Elliot Abrams to gently caress another Latin American country to death being a bad idea is blindingly loving obvious. Iron Twinkie fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Feb 26, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:56
|
|
|
CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Why are "peaceful protesters" throwing improvised anti-tank explosive weapons? CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Would regime change connoisseurs endorse the use of molotov cocktails by the yellow jackets in France?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 17:56
|
|
|
The AP is reporting that there have been 320 defections of Venezuelan military/national guard into Colombia in the previous 4 days, with many now living in a homeless shelter: https://apnews.com/5047b6d203bb473ea3ca704ad630b898 Very detailed story that is worth reading.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 18:00
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Oh no those poor defenseless soldiers! I mean, Jesus, what a poor quality of leftist we have in this thread if they're clutching their pearls at that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 18:05
|
|
|
I've met plenty of people who eat out of garbage bins but not once had I ever heard of anyone eating out of a garbage truck. That just sounds stupid.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 18:09
|
|
|
If you begin with the absolute moral commitment that anything and everything the US does or doesn't do is necessarily absolutely evil and nothing else in the world matters, then a) you're going to frequently come to incorrect conclusions. b) you're going to routinely fall for propaganda that preys on and reinforces this belief. c) you're posting in the wrong thread.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 18:13
|
|
|
Telesur repotss that 99%of poor venezuelanas have fridges. So the crisis is over guys you can all go back to defending assad
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 18:13
|
|
|
When everyone is eating at trash cans the next step is trucks to avoid competition.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 18:13
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:If you begin with the absolute moral commitment that anything and everything the US does or doesn't do is necessarily absolutely evil and nothing else in the world matters, then this time will be different!
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 18:16
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:If you begin with the absolute moral commitment that anything and everything the US does or doesn't do is necessarily absolutely evil and nothing else in the world matters, then The guy who Trump hired to run the US Venezuela operation has a resume that's just war crimes and selling weapons (to pay for more war crimes). Why was he hired? Because he makes a drat good cup of coffee?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 18:26
|
|
|
Iron Twinkie posted:The guy who Trump hired to run the US Venezuela operation has a resume that's just war crimes and selling weapons (to pay for more war crimes). Why was he hired? Because he makes a drat good cup of coffee? Are you saying that US foreign policy hatchetmen are war criminals? But this time it will be different, the Trump administration is world renowned for their munificence and benevolence towards Latin Americans.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 18:28
|
|
|
Iron Twinkie posted:The guy who Trump hired to run the US Venezuela operation has a resume that's just war crimes and selling weapons (to pay for more war crimes). Why was he hired? Because he makes a drat good cup of coffee? It's understandable to be critical and untrusting of US involvement in other countries, especially Latin America, I'm still upset myself due to the stupidity/callousness of the Trump admin for appointing him to begin with, but it doesn't make the lack of any actual attempts at military subversion yet, as well as statements on the current goings. The new sanctions are awful and unlikely to help anyone unless they believe accelerationism will outright force the public to force them out which is unlikely unless the military itself turns on the PSUV.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 18:33
|
|
|
ChaseSP posted:It's understandable to be critical and untrusting of US involvement in other countries, especially Latin America, I'm still upset myself due to the stupidity/callousness of the Trump admin for appointing him to begin with, but it doesn't make the lack of any actual attempts at military subversion yet, as well as statements on the current goings. The new sanctions are awful and unlikely to help anyone unless they believe accelerationism will outright force the public to force them out which is unlikely unless the military itself turns on the PSUV. in the category of Actually Discussing The Situation On The Ground: yeah, there's a reason for the accelerationism plan. and a reason the first thing Guaido has done is proclaim "if you have a gun, you can come over to me and I'll ignore any crimes you may have done." knocking over a foreign government, it turns out, requires a considerable injection of manpower! it's part of why Libya was such a dream event, there was already a ready-made opposition army with battle lines and everything. whereas what Guiado has, at this point, is a bunch of occasional lynching enthusiasts and a foreign fan club. as Mr. Abrams could tell you from his experiences in Guatemala, when you try to put right-wing street rowdies up against anything more than terrified civilians, it goes badly for them. the traditional playbook here requires that you have some Contras to arm, or a neighboring nation you can lean on to do most of the heavy lifting. neither Colombia or Brazil really have that force projection capability. they're not going to stand in our way if we decide to run some poo poo out of there, but if we ask them to invade Venezuela, the response is going to be an echoing "uhhhhhhh." and, in a pleasant surprise, it appears the Republicans are genuinely gunshy about sending in US soldiers to deliver freedom the old-fashioned way. which ends up limiting the available options for the opposition to poking Maduro and hoping a couple hundred thousand defecting soldiers come out.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 18:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 13:51 |
|
|
CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Why are "peaceful protesters" throwing improvised anti-tank explosive weapons? Who said they have to be peaceful protesters? They are starving people in a country in crisis. Also the police shoot at them anyways. And people aren't literally starving in France. Everyone in France is better off by a huge amount than the poor people of Venezuela.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2019 18:58
|
|