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zapplez posted:Who said they have to be peaceful protesters? They are starving people in a country in crisis. Also the police shoot at them anyways. zapplez, were you not paying attention to where the protesters set the aid on fire or did you get your wires crossed, and are you now under the impression colombia is also full of starving people in a country in crisis
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Feb 26, 2019 19:01
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Randarkman posted:While the people throwing molotovs may have been acting rashly or even stupidly to outside observers, I am not going to blame them for acting like that. People in Venezuela have a right to be angry at the government, and when things get out of hand, the blame must be placed at the feet of the ones who allowed things to get so bad that things like that could happen in the first place. It seems like extremely poor judgement for the US and Colombia to have allowed it. I mean, it's not like the protesters were the ones providing the aid. That was ostensibly coming from the US. You'd think they'd want to maximize the chances of the aid being delivered by not bringing along an angry, violent mob that would make a convenient excuse for the regime to engage in riot suppression tactics. Darth Walrus posted:I mean, they did still attack an aid convoy. That's pretty bad even if it was one of the defenders who accidentally did the most damage. Now, obviously, Abrams being involved does mean there was a chance it wasn't delivering the sort of aid you can eat, but that's still not a reason to go in tear-gas canisters blazing. Just stop the trucks, inspect the trucks, and let all those dozens of journalists from around the world who've shown up for the spectacle have a look as you see what they're carrying. Eh, this made a lot more sense before we got videos of the dudes chucking molotovs at the border police. And it seems like there weren't actually a whole lot of journalists there, because most of the media reports relied on secondhand accounts, thirdhand reports, rumor, or other means which "could not be independently confirmed" when they reported on the burning of the trucks. I mean, let's just look at the AP's take: quote:In one dramatic high point, a group of activists led by exiled lawmakers managed to escort three flatbed trucks of aid past the halfway point into Venezuela when they were repelled by security forces. In a flash the cargo caught fire, with some eyewitnesses claiming the National Guardsmen doused a tarp covering the boxes with gas before setting it on fire. As a black cloud rose above, the activists — protecting their faces from the fumes with vinegar-soaked cloths — unloaded the boxes by hand in a human chain stretching back to the Colombian side of the bridge. Or how about CNN? They confusingly claim both that they personally saw the police start the fire, but also that they know nothing about the fire or the circumstances that led up to it. quote:Witnesses said two trucks were set ablaze while attempting to cross into Venezuela from Colombia.
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Feb 26, 2019 19:22
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Main Paineframe posted:It seems like extremely poor judgement for the US and Colombia to have allowed it. I mean, it's not like the protesters were the ones providing the aid. That was ostensibly coming from the US. You'd think they'd want to maximize the chances of the aid being delivered by not bringing along an angry, violent mob that would make a convenient excuse for the regime to engage in riot suppression tactics. Sounds like they didn't know whether the police ignited the trucks with tear-gas canisters deliberately or accidentally, but they were pretty sure it was a tear-gas canister that started the fire. And hey, they might well be right. Not like we saw the point of impact of that Molotov.
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Feb 26, 2019 21:10
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I saw some Red Cross chat a bit earlier. I just saw this article pop up on El Nacional. It cites Francesco Rocca, the president of the IFRC, saying that it is "fully ready" to distribute humanitarian aid in Venezuela, but that "we have some difficulties" gaining access to Venezuela. He said:quote:We want an agreement between the two sides and we want to have free access to the country because at this moment we're having some difficulties.
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Feb 26, 2019 21:21
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It looks like Maduro somewhat violently detained a reporter from the OTHER Spanish language channel in the United States, Telemundo, who was covering the detention of the reporter from Univision. https://twitter.com/BNONews/status/1100502111064899584 We really do live in a world that is beyond parody.
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Feb 26, 2019 22:50
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Telemundo is a psyop
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Feb 27, 2019 00:01
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Gozinbulx posted:Telemundo is a psyop For what the prolifertion of skantly clad game shows
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Feb 27, 2019 00:59
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This is a parody account right, he really didn't imprison a journalist looking into why he imprisoned other journalists within a 24 hour period right?
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Feb 27, 2019 01:09
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ChaseSP posted:This is a parody account right, he really didn't imprison a journalist looking into why he imprisoned other journalists within a 24 hour period right? https://twitter.com/TelemundoNews/status/1100511738011807745?s=19
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Feb 27, 2019 01:13
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ChaseSP posted:This is a parody account right, he really didn't imprison a journalist looking into why he imprisoned other journalists within a 24 hour period right? Acebuckeye13 posted:If there's anything I've learned in following the past few years of Venezuelan politics, it's that Maduro is not a bright man.
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Feb 27, 2019 01:16
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GoluboiOgon posted:the guy directly contradicts himself one sentence later. not saying that he is a crisis actor, just that you clearly can't take every word he says as 100% true. This is a uniquely lovely post, in a sea of lovely posts, you're literally trying to pretend like no-one talks about "This is the first time I've had to do something" when talking about a trial in there life. You're purposefully tearing apart the words of a starving man just to justify your awful opinions. You are scum. The man comes to me, he is begging for food, I look at him. "nice sentence structure duplicitous scum." I say as I laugh and point at the garbage cans. Turtlicious fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Feb 27, 2019 |
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Feb 27, 2019 01:41
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The United States is never going to stand for Venezuela letting journalists off that easily.
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Feb 27, 2019 02:39
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Bring in the cancer gun weilding aid burning spike smugglig crisis actors its the US Intervention
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Feb 27, 2019 04:45
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Darth Walrus posted:They're loving riot police. Just put your shields up, make sure you're wearing helmets, and bring some journalists along with you (ideally Western ones). Think the opposition are going to want to see a New York Times foreign correspondent go up like a Roman candle? This was from a while back but are you really saying the Venezuelan soldiers should have used journalists as human shields? Also the western media blamed Maduro for a truck the opposition purposefully lit on fire (and is still trying to keep the myth going), why wouldn't they same about a journalist the opposition lit on fire?
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Feb 27, 2019 05:19
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uninterrupted posted:This was from a while back but are you really saying the Venezuelan soldiers should have used journalists as human shields?
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Feb 27, 2019 05:29
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:So why did the opposition light the truck on fire if in an earlier post you made stated they had been caught driving around with c4 etc, why burn their own "death squad" supplies? Quote where I was talking about c4 hoss
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Feb 27, 2019 05:33
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:So why did the opposition light the truck on fire if in an earlier post you made stated they had been caught driving around with c4 etc, why burn their own "death squad" supplies? Because they hosed up trying to throw a firebomb at the government forces and the people in charge knew that was an even better result. You get 'no they didn't mean to blow up the truck they just threw their firebomb bad' doesn't somehow counter 'we and the other governments involved lied about who blew the truck up because the coup is failing and 'WHAT MONSTER WOULD DESTROY AID?!' is a solid bloody shirt to wave to appeal to the so-called moral hawks', right?
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Feb 27, 2019 05:34
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Even if those trucks actually were 100% only food and water and stuff that can't possibly be part of anything more than just feeding people every single state actor involved in the original plan of 'force a standoff at the bridge' 100% hoped those trucks would get shot/blown up/whatever because that's way better for them than actual aid going through into the country. They just got lucky when Joe Rando miscalculated the arc on his Molotov
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Feb 27, 2019 05:36
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uninterrupted posted:Quote where I was talking about c4 hoss The source of the claim that they drive around with Weapons has also claimed opposition leaders were caught with C4. Same Source as you are reading to justify the viewpoint.
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Feb 27, 2019 05:43
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:The source of the claim that they drive around with Weapons has also claimed opposition leaders were caught with C4. Same Source as you are reading to justify the viewpoint. K so you made it up thanks hoss
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Feb 27, 2019 05:55
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uninterrupted posted:K so you made it up thanks hoss So why did the opposition light the truck on fire if in an earlier post you made stated they had been caught driving around with weapons explosives etc, why burn their own "death squad" supplies?
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Feb 27, 2019 06:28
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I hope somebody on some side does something so yinz can stop talking about this dumb truck. How’s NK/Maduro relations? Homeboy is down there with lil Kim right now.
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Feb 27, 2019 08:32
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Apparently WarCrimeGigolo is LeoMarr. Conduct yourselves accordingly.
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Feb 27, 2019 09:47
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The US is ramping up to sanction David Martinez. He’s supported governments being strangled by debt repayment for a while, most notably in the restructuring of Argentina’s sovereign debt. He hasn’t done anything illegal, but because he’s been advising and putting up money for Venezuela (he made a loan that was one of the “last known transactions between a U.S. or European firm and Caracas ”) the US wants to make an example of him. Given the Guaido-Trump strategy of worsening the crisis in Venezuela to overthrow the elected government, it’s not surprising the US wants to further threaten Venezuela-friendly investors.
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Feb 27, 2019 16:10
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Netblocks reported this morning that Twitter was briefly blocked this morning in the country for the first step since the crisis began: https://twitter.com/netblocks/status/1100752393195741184 If you click on the link in the tweet, Netblocks points out that SoundCloud was also blocked. As the article points out, the outage roughly corresponded to the time that Guaido shared a tweet on his personal account linking to an audio message he posted on SoundCloud.
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Feb 27, 2019 16:32
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uninterrupted posted:The US is ramping up to sanction David Martinez. You do know that the reason that the reason loans to Venezuela were banned for US companies was that the collateral started becoming various things like ports, oilfields, huge chunks of property, etc What sort of collateral did Venezuela put up for a 300 million dollar loan? And they are gonna inevitably default at some point like with all the other loans.
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Feb 27, 2019 16:41
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Pharohman777 posted:You do know that the reason that the reason loans to Venezuela were banned for US companies was that the collateral started becoming various things like ports, oilfields, huge chunks of property, etc Kind of a silly argument when the entire US foreign policy apparatus acknowledges its meant to cripple Venezuela, and they’re investigating a man who hasn’t committed a crime as specially designated national specifically to scare people away from helping a country in need. However, it was backed with 1.3 billion in bonds, which Martínez is definitely expecting a haircut on because VZ sovereign debt + crippling US sanctions. I assume the focus on him is meant to get friendly voices out of the room if the US-led coup succeeds, so the US/Lima Group/bondholders are united in pushing for austerity and privatization.
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Feb 27, 2019 16:59
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This Maduro character is not very madure
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Feb 27, 2019 17:22
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uninterrupted posted:I assume the focus on him is meant to get friendly voices out of the room if the US-led coup succeeds, so the US/Lima Group/bondholders are united in pushing for austerity and privatization. What does austerity mean in the context of a state whose people are eating from garbage trucks?
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Feb 27, 2019 17:35
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uninterrupted posted:
Austerity? The Us government wants austerity in venezuela? Can you back this terrblle take up with a telesur article at least.
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Feb 27, 2019 17:42
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Norton the First posted:What does austerity mean in the context of a state whose people are eating from garbage trucks? traditionally, "stop giving them water" wave hello, Flint, Michigan.
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Feb 27, 2019 17:45
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:traditionally, "stop giving them water" Well, Venezuela has been doing that for a few years now, since its water system is collapsing from years without maintenance.
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Feb 27, 2019 18:07
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Austerity? The Us government wants austerity in venezuela? Can you back this terrblle take up with a telesur article at least. The Venezuelan president the US selected wants to get rid of CLAP and public housing, and bond holders want to get paid, and the IMF (who’d probably be handling financial aid if Guaido and the US manage to overthrow the government) are notorious for demanding austerity policies. It’s actually a pretty non-controversial statement, and plenty of pro-coup posters in this thread have supported Guaido’s statements on removing food aid/public housing, along with removing price controls to allow prices to rise over what the poorest of Venezuela can afford.
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Feb 27, 2019 18:08
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uninterrupted posted:The Venezuelan president the US selected wants to get rid of CLAP and public housing, and bond holders want to get paid, and the IMF (who’d probably be handling financial aid if Guaido and the US manage to overthrow the government) are notorious for demanding austerity policies. The price controls have ruined farms, since farmers dont make back enough to recover the costs to grow crops and feed animals. If the government actually subsidized and compensated farmers and bakers for selling stuff they would take a loss on, the price controls might have been good.
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Feb 27, 2019 18:17
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Pharohman777 posted:The price controls have ruined farms, since farmers dont make back enough to recover the costs to grow crops and feed animals. If the government actually subsidized and compensated farmers and bakers for selling stuff they would take a loss on, the price controls might have been good. Price controls meant the poor could afford food; they’re an objective good. Mismanagement of the agriculture industry is separate. Also the pro-coup people rarely say “there needs to be more funding for capital investment in agriculture” as much as “price controls bad”.
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Feb 27, 2019 18:38
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uninterrupted posted:Price controls meant the poor could afford food; they’re an objective good. Mismanagement of the agriculture industry is separate. Price controls are meaningless in the context of a self-inflicted hyperinflationary spiral; they're an objective joke.
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Feb 27, 2019 18:39
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The accusations of IMF imposed austerity on Venezuela are mostly nonsensical, as Venezuela cannot deficit spend in the way Britain or Germany are able to. In effect the decline in Venezuelan imports since 2013 can be characterized as a sort of "austerity" imposed by the economic decline. As access to foreign currency has decreased, the Venezuelan government has reduced imports. As domestic production cannot increase for various reasons, the results is shortages. Shortages of goods have driven inflation as the pool of Bolivars chase an ever shrinking supply of goods. Price ceilings are separate from issues of "austerity," as they do not involve the government either raising revenue or spending. They should however decrease private investment by limiting profit, which could explain some of the decrease in domestic production. As it is extremely important for Venezuela to increase domestic production, the country needs to supply that investment lost to the private sector by price ceilings from some other source. If the difference cannot be made up, the result will probably be continued declines in domestic production. If Venezuela cannot increase export revenue or domestic production the result is going to be austerity of some sort regardless of what government runs Venezuela. I think the most likely result is that Venezuela is going to increasingly shift to a remittance based economy, where consumption is driven increasingly by money and consumer goods sent home to family by emigrants. With 10% of the population already having left and more likely to leave this is going to be an important and increasingly large part of the economy for near and mid-term. I admit I find it kind of weird that so many people keep talking about austerity in Venezuela as something the opposition is going to inflict on the economy. It's just not a very meaningful paradigm though which to view what is happening in Venezuela. However it is evidence of something that I think is pretty obvious: Most people in Europe and America talking about Venezuela actually aren't really talking about Venezuela at all. People going on about Venezuela are actually trying to discuss their own domestic issues. It's as if when they look at Venezuela all they see is a mirror reflecting their own parochial circumstance.
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Feb 27, 2019 18:41
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Norton the First posted:Price controls are meaningless in the context of a self-inflicted hyperinflationary spiral; they're an objective joke. A joke that somehow takes a disproportionate amount of attention in this thread. So they either: 1. Both have no effect AND are an evil which must be removed, or 2. Are an easy way for the opposition (which is mostly the Venezuelan upper class) to attack the poor, because they support Maduro. Given Maduro’s few outspoken policies (supporting US military invasion, cutting the social safety net, privatization of state assets) follow typical right-wing politics, it’s probably #2.
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Feb 27, 2019 18:46
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Squalid posted:The accusations of IMF imposed austerity on Venezuela are mostly nonsensical, as Venezuela cannot deficit spend in the way Britain or Germany are able to. In effect the decline in Venezuelan imports since 2013 can be characterized as a sort of "austerity" imposed by the economic decline. As access to foreign currency has decreased, the Venezuelan government has reduced imports. As domestic production cannot increase for various reasons, the results is shortages. Shortages of goods have driven inflation as the pool of Bolivars chase an ever shrinking supply of goods. Removing price ceilings is absolutely a revenue raising move. How much tax do you thing the government collects on a $1 bag of potatoes versus an identical $10 bag of potatoes?
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Feb 27, 2019 18:53
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uninterrupted posted:A joke that somehow takes a disproportionate amount of attention in this thread. So they either: quote:A once-packed henhouse stands empty on Saulo Escobar’s farm in Aragua state, Venezuela, earlier this month. (Mariana Zuñiga for The Washington Post) https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...m=.296bf1fcddc1 I can find more examples if you want uninterrupted, but you probably will think its all fake news like the starving people forced to eat garbage you thought didn't exist.
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Feb 27, 2019 18:55
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