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Dawgstar posted:I love this idea of Blades in the Screwball Comedy. Hitman in the dark.
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Feb 27, 2019 13:53
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Parkreiner posted:the idea being for PCs and players alike to get their heads around time travel, the problems it causes, and the solutions it provides, in a leisurely, sustained fashion. Failing and needing to think fourth-dimensionally to fix it is a feature here. Time Cops are basically part of the setting and something PCs can get up to eventually, but this is directly equivalent to saying D&D has an incompetence problem because 1st level characters insta-die when they visit the Elemental Plane of Fire. I understand that’s the theory. But the “leisurely, sustained fashion” argument is exactly what breaks down - unless you can somehow solve an issue without a roll, a bad roll can leave you having to restage an entire situation. There is a definite period in RPG design, around the old school to more nar transition period, when all aspects of a game’s theme were in its successes and the possibility of failure was kind of brushed under the carpet. In fact one of the best things about PbtA, or the good PbtAs, is that they explicitly address putting failure in tone.
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Feb 27, 2019 13:59
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Hostile V posted:God, today I was listening to the System Mastery episode on WEGs Star Wars and was sitting at my desk laughing at the incredibly morbid story of an Ewok slowly coming to terms with its own mortality as it keeps spiraling into worse health by failing its healing checks until it dies. People got so mad about that episode. That game is all hard checks and long waits and "DM don't forget to do a regular sweep to see if your players are having any fun you can fiat away" but it was Star Wars so everyone loves it I guess.
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Feb 27, 2019 16:23
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gradenko_2000 posted:D&D 3e actually tried to tackle that problem: if your Take 10 is good enough, and there's no time pressure, you Take 10 and do it, no rolling necessary.
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Feb 27, 2019 16:37
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It's astonishing how often good times in D&D editions overlap with times nobody engages its rules. Xiahou Dun posted:
This was totally exasperated by the skill descriptions in the book. They would describe five dots in computers as "You are Keanu in the Matrix" but then you'd have a good chance of loving up an ATM transaction.
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Feb 27, 2019 17:27
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moths posted:This was totally exasperated by the skill descriptions in the book. They would describe five dots in computers as "You are Keanu in the Matrix" but then you'd have a good chance of loving up an ATM transaction. No, the thing that made me Keanu in the matrix was the Merit that reduced the target number for computer tasks by 2. combined with my specialization in computers which gave me an additional 2 dice. I think I had some other thing that reduced the target number by 2 again, so I was rolling 12 dice trying to hit a 4.
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Feb 27, 2019 17:45
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theironjef posted:People got so mad about that episode. That game is all hard checks and long waits and "DM don't forget to do a regular sweep to see if your players are having any fun you can fiat away" but it was Star Wars so everyone loves it I guess. Well, at the time compared to its peers (games like Traveller, Spacemaster, Robotech, or FASA's Star Trek), West End's Star Wars was pretty much the wacky waving tube-man storygame of its day. Whereas other games of the time were either D&D-derivatives or really, really obsessed with tracking every year of your military career, Star Wars was a breath of fresh air in that you didn't worry about levels or service terms. It even gave you a resource you could use to improve your rolls when you wanted! Shocking! Of course, it's got a lot of issues by modern standards... but the fact that every Star Wars game that followed has been a mixed bag at best has really given it a longer life. Bear in mind with all that I can't say I've ever jumped to play it, but there's a reason it did win and keep adherents, especially given how dry the space opera genre was in RPG gaming for a long, long time.
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Feb 27, 2019 17:47
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Well, at the time compared to its peers (games like Traveller, Spacemaster, Robotech, or FASA's Star Trek), West End's Star Wars was pretty much the wacky waving tube-man storygame of its day. Whereas other games of the time were either D&D-derivatives or really, really obsessed with tracking every year of your military career, Star Wars was a breath of fresh air in that you didn't worry about levels or service terms. It even gave you a resource you could use to improve your rolls when you wanted! Shocking!
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Feb 27, 2019 17:59
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So, the thing I struggled with Blades with, both as a GM and now as a player, is that while putting difficulty (as opposed to ProfessorCirno's likelihood) front and center is really refreshing, the lack of any likelihood is... something I struggle with. Like, there are things that The Goddamned Batman (TM) might find himself unlikely to succeed at, even with hard work. And the only way I've found to emulate those situations in Blades is to break a roll up into multiple rolls so you increase the chance that one of them is a failure. But even that feels unsatisfying. If you make a thing your "thing", in Blades, its pretty easy to auto-succeed, just with varying degrees of cost. It's pretty easy in Blades to get to a 94% chance of success on every roll of a given verb (and ~50% chance of success at no cost). And that's only balanced by increased harm. There's no way (that I'm aware of) to emulate "unlikely but not terribly risky". Now, most games go the other way (easy to emulate likelihood, hard to emulate actual effort), so I'm all in favor of Blades. But with about 100 hours of Blades under my belt, I'm beginning to feel like the pendulum went a little too far for me. It's one of the things that drew my eye to Spire. It's got a similar "how big a deal is what you're trying to undertake" in three tiers, just like Blades. But it's also got a likelihood dial if the GM decides that something is unlikely to succeed, but since your player is the Goddamned Batman (TM), they'll probably fail safely. Multiple invisible dials is good. Alien Rope Burn posted:Well, at the time compared to its peers (games like Traveller, Spacemaster, Robotech, or FASA's Star Trek), West End's Star Wars was pretty much the wacky waving tube-man storygame of its day. Whereas other games of the time were either D&D-derivatives or really, really obsessed with tracking every year of your military career, Star Wars was a breath of fresh air in that you didn't worry about levels or service terms. It even gave you a resource you could use to improve your rolls when you wanted! Shocking! When d6 went OpenD6, I was confident it would become a bigger darling than it is. I feel like a lot of... second generation grognards (?) look back on it fondly, but somehow it never really morphed into something more modern in the way I would have expected it to.
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Feb 27, 2019 18:07
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I loved the Robotech/Macross II books in the ‘90s since they were the only written stuff about the series I could find during middle school, but holy poo poo with tying an Itano Circus to individual hit and damage rolls (versus defense rolls) for every individual missile combined with MDC for the valkyries being broken down by a ton of subsections for each mech... 
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Feb 27, 2019 18:08
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CitizenKeen posted:When d6 went OpenD6, I was confident it would become a bigger darling than it is. I feel like a lot of... second generation grognards (?) look back on it fondly, but somehow it never really morphed into something more modern in the way I would have expected it to. After Ghostbusters, I'd argue that any D6 game which ended up being a success was that because of the particular IP involved, rather than because of the strengths of the system itself. Star Wars famously became a bit of a monster, and Rope Burn's pointed out how, whilst far from perfect, the system at least was a refreshing alternative to the more or less universally rules-heavy high-crunch "let's include some actual physics" direction that most SF RPG systems at the time were going in. Hercules and Xena did well, but that's because the TV shows were hot at the time. Other stuff? Not so much, particularly given how a) WEG got bored of D6 and tried to make Masterbook a thing instead and b) WEG got all cargo cult-y and failed to understand their own success, and fell into the trap of thinking that just because one licensed game turned into a licence to print money that if they picked up every cockamamie licence going, sooner or later they'd stumble onto another hit. D6 nostalgia largely seems to be built on people's memories of a certain period of Star Wars fandom when WEG pretty much undeniably saved the franchise from the grave and laid the foundations of the Expanded Universe (and a heck of a lot of stuff that's also become Disney canon), but I'd still argue that in each and every game other than Ghostbusters, the D6 system had to be bent and mangled and wrenched into odd shapes to try and match the action that the designers wanted, and it kind of shows. It fits Ghostbusters in a way which it struggles to fit even Star Wars, though Costikyan did what he could there.
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Feb 27, 2019 18:23
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CitizenKeen posted:There's no way (that I'm aware of) to emulate "unlikely but not terribly risky". in my experience with blades, that's not really all that interesting. risk is where the game thrives, so if something isn't risky then it just happens. if its unlikely, make it a fortune roll with 1 die, or hell 2 dice taking the lowest. its not really something i encountered in my time with blades and scum & villainy because it doesn't really feed into the action the system is trying to create
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Feb 27, 2019 18:23
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Serf posted:in my experience with blades, that's not really all that interesting. risk is where the game thrives, so if something isn't risky then it just happens. if its unlikely, make it a fortune roll with 1 die, or hell 2 dice taking the lowest. its not really something i encountered in my time with blades and scum & villainy because it doesn't really feed into the action the system is trying to create I mean, that's like saying "All Controlled Actions" are uninteresting. Just because the chance of fallout is low doesn't mean the odds of success are high. Your table is different than the tables I've played at, I guess. I think you can have very interesting questions where the fallout is just "Your mentor is angry but don't worry they still love you" and that doesn't immediately translate into "Well, you're guaranteed a success."
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Feb 27, 2019 18:34
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CitizenKeen posted:I mean, that's like saying "All Controlled Actions" are uninteresting. Just because the chance of fallout is low doesn't mean the odds of success are high. Your table is different than the tables I've played at, I guess. I think you can have very interesting questions where the fallout is just "Your mentor is angry but don't worry they still love you" and that doesn't immediately translate into "Well, you're guaranteed a success." well controlled actions don't involve no risk. there is something at stake, otherwise you wouldn't be rolling. and the game does provide the fortune roll for when you want to disclaim responsibility, which seems ideal for what you're describing
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Feb 27, 2019 19:10
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hyphz posted:I understand that’s the theory. But the “leisurely, sustained fashion” argument is exactly what breaks down - unless you can somehow solve an issue without a roll, a bad roll can leave you having to restage an entire situation. I agree, but your premise was that the game presented trained secret agents as bumbling schmoes, but the game does not actually state or imply the default PCs as trained secret agents. You start as Bill and Ted. Screwing up and then time traveling around to fix it, find someone who can, or become someone who can (by spending six months offscreen grinding XP and then time-traveling back) is working as intended. You “restage the situation” in character, which is what makes Continuum such a funky, challenging game, much like Nobilis, another game a lot of people have trouble parsing. I can even merge the conversational streams here— you know how Blades in the Dark lets you spend a resource to retroactively say you laid some groundwork that is suddenly exactly what the current situation calls for? Continuum just lets you do that, more or less at will. It’s such a central concept that they even came up with jargon for it: slipshanking. Parkreiner fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Feb 27, 2019 |
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Feb 27, 2019 19:27
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Parkreiner posted:I agree, but your premise was that the game presented trained secret agents as bumbling schmoes, but the game does not actually state or imply the default PCs as trained secret agents. You start as Bill and Ted. Screwing up and then time traveling around to fix it, find someone who can, or become someone who can (by spending six months offscreen grinding XP and then time-traveling back) is working as intended. You “restage the situation” in character, which is what makes Continuum such a funky, challenging game, much like Nobilis, another game a lot of people have trouble parsing. That said, Continuum does make it so that while Running at levels higher than 1 is good, Running at 1 means you can't run any more.
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Feb 27, 2019 19:32
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CitizenKeen posted:When d6 went OpenD6, I was confident it would become a bigger darling than it is. I feel like a lot of... second generation grognards (?) look back on it fondly, but somehow it never really morphed into something more modern in the way I would have expected it to. I think Star Wars is the only real D6 System game to really be a huge hit; it didn't really make a huge splash beyond that, not that WEG didn't really try to push it. So a lot of its success feels like it was mainly the success of Star Wars. Also, a lot of the delays and drama over OpenD6 probably killed any hype for it, and trying to launch during the years of the d20 craze can't have helped.
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Feb 27, 2019 19:55
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Plus don't forget that OpenD6 came after years and years of fuckups both on the part of the original WEG and on the part of that well-meaning fan who bought out the name and then turned out not to have a clue what to do with it (I forget their name but I think they were responsible for the chaos surrounding Bill Coffin's Septimus, and decided to make D6 open for the sake of preserving the system when they realised that they had no alternative). A decade or so of mismanagement is going to pour a lot of cold water on a system.
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Feb 27, 2019 20:26
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Parkreiner posted:I can even merge the conversational streams here— you know how Blades in the Dark lets you spend a resource to retroactively say you laid some groundwork that is suddenly exactly what the current situation calls for? Continuum just lets you do that, more or less at will. It’s such a central concept that they even came up with jargon for it: slipshanking. That’s fine. But thing is, if they do the “let’s steal Dad’s keys after we’re done here and send them back” and then they fail their roll to steal them and get caught.. well, they are now in deep poo poo. They still have to get the keys, or something that works the same as them, because their past selves already picked them up. But they also have to still get caught (because their past selves already did that too) and not be seen by themselves (because they didn’t do that). And that’s assuming their Dad didn’t do anything else as a result of catching them that had further effect. If they fail another roll to sort that out, they might be getting into territory of getting Foxhorned, and that’s before you have to allow for the evil time travellers deliberately screwing it up. (Because if you do the “six months intensive guitar training” thing at any significant point, Narcs will be all over that poo poo.) BitD flashbacks have similar problems if a flashback actually includes a roll and it fails. “Well, actually I secretly bribed that guard.” “Oops, you failed, he refused your bribe and warned the other guards about you. And, um, they would have known about that since the start of the Score so.. we have to go back I guess?” Let alone the question of if you then need to make skill checks for the guard to see if he accidentally blabbed in the intervening time.
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Feb 27, 2019 20:57
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you have literally no idea how blades in the dark's rules work this has been made clear many times e: hell, you think npcs roll dice in it
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Feb 27, 2019 21:04
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Mors Rattus posted:you have literally no idea how blades in the dark's rules work Well, ok, a fortune roll instead of a skill check maybe?
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Feb 27, 2019 21:11
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hyphz posted:
I mean, you don't have to actually do any of that. You're assuming the guard you attempted to bribe isn't actually corrupt and will inform on you but they could just as easily: 1) have gotten spooked and decided not to accept it 2) told you to gently caress off because they don't know you or you didn't bribe them enough 3) won't actually be working the night you need them to and can't do the thing 4) took your money and just don't do what you asked 5) someone else found the thing they did for you and grabbed it or something 6) maybe no one believes them 'cause "No I swear I totally got bribed by so-and-so guys!" but there's no real proof 7) they did take your bribe and did something for you but maybe it's inferior/only half done/whatever because BitD is fail-forward. You're assuming the default is like the absolute worst possible outcome rather than just a bad/complicated outcome. Some of these give you a chance to still get the thing, or create an opportunity for conflict later ("You took my money and hosed us over last night, buddy!"), without disrupting the heist which seems like a good thing.
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Feb 27, 2019 21:12
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Just saw that Invisible Sun is finally available for purchase in pdf form. 99 dollars is a wild price, but I just have to know... Does it come with the files to 3D print the plastic hand???
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Feb 27, 2019 21:14
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hyphz posted:That’s fine. But thing is, if they do the “let’s steal Dad’s keys after we’re done here and send them back” and then they fail their roll to steal them and get caught.. well, they are now in deep poo poo. They still have to get the keys, or something that works the same as them, because their past selves already picked them up. But they also have to still get caught (because their past selves already did that too) and not be seen by themselves (because they didn’t do that). And that’s assuming their Dad didn’t do anything else as a result of catching them that had further effect. If they fail another roll to sort that out, they might be getting into territory of getting Foxhorned, and that’s before you have to allow for the evil time travellers deliberately screwing it up. (Because if you do the “six months intensive guitar training” thing at any significant point, Narcs will be all over that poo poo.) That you view the above as a) an out of context problem for the game instead of exactly what gameplay is like b) a problem worthy of the GM intensifying with maximum force, and c) *three replies in* you have yet to acknowledge that your “hardcore time cops” framing of the game was straight up incorrect tells me that Continuum is not for you and I need to stop engaging. The Gate posted:
Yes. Problem and disaster are two different things, Hyphz, and your games would likely be less frustrating if you or your GM would ever dial it back from the absolute brink. You know, “Be a fan of the PCs.” Parkreiner fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Feb 27, 2019 |
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Feb 27, 2019 21:16
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I hope that price means that the writers and artists etc. were paid closer to fair wages for the project.
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Feb 27, 2019 21:17
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And all those things are unaccountable for. I mean, the book’s actual example is: “Maybe you convinced the district Watch captain to cancel the Bluecoat patrol tonight, so you make a Sway roll to see how that goes.” But if you fail that Sway roll, the captain’s going to be mighty suspicious. He might not just “not cancel” the patrol, he might put extra on. And those extra patrols might have been in places you have already passed on the Score. I know the rules do say you can’t alter anything already established, but if you extrapolate that to “can’t have a chance of altering anything already established” then 99% of flashbacks are invalid. Continuum did actually teach me to check that every example of a mechanic includes an example of a failure to check that the author has thought it through (none of Continuum’s do)
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Feb 27, 2019 21:18
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Parkreiner posted:That you view the above as a) an out of context problem for the game instead of exactly what gameplay is like b) a problem worthy of the GM intensifying with maximum force, and c) *three replies in* you have yet to acknowledge that your “hardcore time cops” framing of the game was straight up incorrect tells me that Continuum is not for you and I need to stop engaging. Hardcore time cops was wrong, yes, I admit that. But “Bill and Ted get fragged out of existence because they screwed up stealing some keys” is not the suggested mood either. If the GM does intensify it, the PCs will be toast.
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Feb 27, 2019 21:20
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it's almost as if any game can be ruined by a GM who wants to be a dick
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Feb 27, 2019 21:20
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hyphz posted:And all those things are unaccountable for. I mean, the book’s actual example is: No? You're literally inventing this idea that a failed roll means things break. Let's take this actual example and assume that, yes, the Captain gets suspicious and has extra patrols in the area. But, you're already inside, so you clearly made it past them to get in position. If there's players outside standing watch or waiting to get in, maybe they'll have to start doing some extra work to stay hidden now. Maybe the extra patrol isn't in exactly the right spot, but there's an increased response time if something goes sideways. Maybe there will just be the "a-team" guards out there tonight, instead of the usual "c-team" guys that are on night patrol. You're fixated on this idea that a single bad roll must ruin things, when that is actively against how the game directs you to play.
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Feb 27, 2019 21:31
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hyphz posted:
quote:
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Feb 27, 2019 21:36
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hyphz posted:BitD flashbacks have similar problems if a flashback actually includes a roll and it fails. “Well, actually I secretly bribed that guard.” “Oops, you failed, he refused your bribe and warned the other guards about you. And, um, they would have known about that since the start of the Score so.. we have to go back I guess?” Let alone the question of if you then need to make skill checks for the guard to see if he accidentally blabbed in the intervening time. "Well I secretly bribed that guard" "Oops, you failed. The door opens and it's two other guards. 'Can't believe Larry got sick today.' says the first one." easy. Edit: This was literally the thing I thought of basically upon reading your complaint but any of the other ideas work too, it's 0% of a problem.
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Feb 27, 2019 21:39
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Please come to our convention where not only do women guests of honour not exist, but you have a significantly higher chance of being sexually harassed: http://www.totalcon.com/industry-guests.php
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Feb 27, 2019 21:43
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Jimbozig posted:But the GM decides that... So instead of deciding the thing that doesn't make sense they can just decide something that does. Bribe fails? All patrols from here to the goal are more heavily armed. There is a patrol lying in ambush for you. The target was moved to a new location. Pick any of those! You are not locked into choosing the same twist you would have chosen had this not been a flashback. Which means that the PCs will just be encouraged to observe and question more and more in order to create as many existing restrictions as possible and lock out potential failures. How many guards are there in the room? What does every one of them look like? If they’re chatting to each other, what do they say? If they’re just talking lightly, then obviously nothing major has happened to them tonight that they would be talking about, so that can’t happen now right? Do they look panicked? No? Then nothing can have panicked them.. etc.
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Feb 27, 2019 21:45
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I think Star Wars is the only real D6 System game to really be a huge hit; it didn't really make a huge splash beyond that, not that WEG didn't really try to push it. So a lot of its success feels like it was mainly the success of Star Wars. Also, a lot of the delays and drama over OpenD6 probably killed any hype for it, and trying to launch during the years of the d20 craze can't have helped. The first Ghostbusters is spoken of very highly by those I found who played it. The later edition was whatever, but that one is always touted as a great way to do a comedic RPG. Admittedly I couldn't say how much of a hit it was. Certainly not as much as Star Wars.
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Feb 27, 2019 21:48
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PST posted:Please come to our convention where not only do women guests of honour not exist, but you have a significantly higher chance of being sexually harassed: I went to TotalCon once, years ago. It was easily the worst convention I've ever been to, stuffed into a tiny hotel area. This does not really surprise me.
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Feb 27, 2019 21:57
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hyphz posted:Which means that the PCs will just be encouraged to observe and question more and more in order to create as many existing restrictions as possible and lock out potential failures. How many guards are there in the room? What does every one of them look like? If they’re chatting to each other, what do they say? If they’re just talking lightly, then obviously nothing major has happened to them tonight that they would be talking about, so that can’t happen now right? Do they look panicked? No? Then nothing can have panicked them.. etc. None of these even make sense as lockouts because there's explanations for most things; people can't perfectly identify everyone, cavalier attitudes to danger among security personnel are common, sometimes someone walked off for a piss and then comes back, whatever. Plus that goes both ways, demanding to know every inch of the room also locks out your flashbacks. Seriously, it's not a problem, stop trying to make it a problem.
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Feb 27, 2019 22:13
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Mors Rattus posted:I went to TotalCon once, years ago. It was easily the worst convention I've ever been to, stuffed into a tiny hotel area. So would you say it's a total con?
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Feb 27, 2019 22:34
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spectralent posted:None of these even make sense as lockouts because there's explanations for most things; people can't perfectly identify everyone, cavalier attitudes to danger among security personnel are common, sometimes someone walked off for a piss and then comes back, whatever. It is the big problem, I don’t know how GMs deal with it when nothing ruins immersion more than not being able to visualise the scene because of foggy description, but a precise one can tilt the rules. I’m sure some can strike that balance but I have no idea how. Don’t even get onto “are there any boots in the vestibule?” “No.” “I flashback to pretending to be a messenger from the duke, telling the guard captain that all guards must take off their boots in the vestibule. If I succeed then since it’s established there are no boots, there must be no guards!”
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Feb 27, 2019 22:36
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Mors Rattus posted:I went to TotalCon once, years ago. It was easily the worst convention I've ever been to, stuffed into a tiny hotel area. They've claimed they reached out to 2 female game designers, one of which being Margaret Weiss 'to see if they could attend' so that's them absolutely trying to be inclusive...
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Feb 27, 2019 22:37
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hyphz posted:It is the big problem, I don’t know how GMs deal with it when nothing ruins immersion more than not being able to visualise the scene because of foggy description, but a precise one can tilt the rules. I’m sure some can strike that balance but I have no idea how. so, like, do you accept the voices of experience with any other topic, or do you insist to lawyers that a gold fringe on the flag means this is an admiralty court and you are a boat
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Feb 27, 2019 22:43
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