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This was the kickstarter, with its $250k goal. It was failing well before Price spoke about him on Twitter.  Likewise his claims about the PM on Dragonsfoot not being him ignored the matching language and writing style and that the mods/admins there investigated and concluded he wasn't hacked.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:01
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Another issue is that a lot of indie games are 'build your own setting', which makes writing prefab adventures rather more difficult.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:01
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hyphz posted:To try and get this back to industry, lack of prefab adventures is a much more significant issue than it seems to be considered. I’ve seen like 5 DnD 5e groups form in my town based on the prefab campaign books because they’re easy to run from, they reassure players, and they’re a shared experience you can chat about on nerd groups. I know the argument is that indies tend not to have them because they’re expensive to produce but the gain could be worth it. Vast swathes of Delta Green's products are scenarios and campaigns, and they sell enough to sustain their part-time writing/art gigs, at least using kickstarter to get the money up front.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:02
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moths posted:I can tell you care about this and have probably gotten some frustrating pushback.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:04
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Serf posted:they've got to be good tho, because i've read drat near every prefab sotdl adventure and a few by non-schwalb authors are bad. the monte cook one is straight garbage 110%. A prefab should not only be fun, it needs to explain the decisions behind the game and set tables up to succeed, not just with the adventure at hand, but understanding the intent of the game for the rest of the time they play it.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:07
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PST posted:Vast swathes of Delta Green's products are scenarios and campaigns, and they sell enough to sustain their part-time writing/art gigs, at least using kickstarter to get the money up front. Paizo has built their entire company off their adventure paths. The subscriptions are the backbone of the business.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:08
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Arivia posted:Paizo has built their entire company off their adventure paths. The subscriptions are the backbone of the business. Adventure as a Service.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:08
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slap me and kiss me posted:Adventure as a Service. Pretty much.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:10
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it actually makes sense because adventures are a consumable
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Feb 28, 2019 17:11
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I don't understand the appeal of prefab adventures at all, but I'd rather have a company stay afloat publishing them than trying to endlessly cram more class / PC option content into the same game.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:14
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't understand the appeal of prefab adventures at all, but I'd rather have a company stay afloat publishing them than trying to endlessly cram more class / PC option content into the same game. i know that when reading a game for the first time, i always look forward to looking over the prefab adventure so that i can get a feel for the amount of prep i'll need to do at least initially
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Feb 28, 2019 17:16
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hyphz posted:To try and get this back to industry, lack of prefab adventures is a much more significant issue than it seems to be considered. I’ve seen like 5 DnD 5e groups form in my town based on the prefab campaign books because they’re easy to run from, they reassure players, and they’re a shared experience you can chat about on nerd groups. I know the argument is that indies tend not to have them because they’re expensive to produce but the gain could be worth it. Prefab adventures can be an excellent introductory tool, and can also be valuable as a resource mine for set pieces, dungeon maps, and custom encounters for experienced GMs. There are more problems to them than cost, though. A badly-written one can be a very serious turn-off on the game, or give a distorted perception of the game's quality (see: a lot of the early first party 4e adventures). A lot of companies and third party groups see adventures as filler supplements, too, and don't control for quality. Paizo's reputation for good adventures comes, at least in part, putting real effort into designing and writing them, with consideration given to how characters of certain levels might be able to approach or derail the adventure depending on the tools (spells) available to them. A lot of modern games can't fully map out adventures, either, because of the narrative decisions of players drifting very far from any predictable path. That's why you'll see a lot of games now that offer sample story hooks or starting points for a plot, but leave the rest up to the interactions between the GM and players. All this aside, I can't say that I can think of a D&D-derivative or any other mid-to-high crunch game that doesn't have a sample adventure in the book, plus lots of supplements with more.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:18
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't understand the appeal of prefab adventures at all, but I'd rather have a company stay afloat publishing them than trying to endlessly cram more class / PC option content into the same game. One of the most important functions of pre-fabs is as a teaching tool. They can be a really important factor in helping a new or first time GM learn how to structure an adventure and in conveying the expectations of play for the game they're written for. Of course, they have to be worth a drat to accomplish this. E: They can also be a huge time saver for a GM who doesn't have a lot of spare time, but only if they're well balanced and reasonably well constructed; I've run pre-fabs where I ended up having to do so much re-writing that it didn't save me any time at all, for instance.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:18
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I like stealing stuff from pre-fabs but don't like to play/run them
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Feb 28, 2019 17:19
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't understand the appeal of prefab adventures at all, but I'd rather have a company stay afloat publishing them than trying to endlessly cram more class / PC option content into the same game. good news Paizo does both!!! There seems to be a huge shakeup on their publishing schedule going into PF 2e though. I think we're going to see the Pathfinder RPG Rulebook line become specific to Golarion, and a higher integration of materials down the stack of their products (up until the last couple years, the big hardcover rulebooks didn't even mention their other products.)
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Feb 28, 2019 17:19
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Night10194 posted:One of the most important functions of pre-fabs is as a teaching tool. They can be a really important factor in helping a new or first time GM learn how to structure an adventure and in conveying the expectations of play for the game they're written for. Of course, they have to be worth a drat to accomplish this. This this this this. DnD's black box from the early 90s is a spectacular example of getting this right.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:20
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Serf posted:they've got to be good tho, because i've read drat near every prefab sotdl adventure and a few by non-schwalb authors are bad. the monte cook one is straight garbage Bad prefabs bake in horrible habits and hurt a game's reputation - totally needlessly because the problem isn't with the system in question at all, it's with people not knowing how to apply the drat thing.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:24
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Warthur posted:Bad prefabs bake in horrible habits and hurt a game's reputation - totally needlessly because the problem isn't with the system in question at all, it's with people not knowing how to apply the drat thing. Looking at you Keep on the Shadowfell
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Feb 28, 2019 17:26
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slap me and kiss me posted:This this this this. The new Call of Cthulhu starter set is actually spectacularly good at this - it's got a full, proper solo adventure to get across the idea of the system to you, then it gives you a brace of adventures each designed with very different structures to give you examples of how you can structure investigations.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:28
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Warthur posted:Heck, one of the reasons Keep On the Borderlands gets OSR grogs turgid with glee is that it's got a bunch of guidance by Gygax in there on how to run the module and why it's set up the way it is and generally how he expected you to GM D&D - and it's in clear, direct language (for Gygax) rather than the long waffley tangents he does in the AD&D DMG or anywhere else he actually sat down to give a substantive explanation of this stuff. That is mad smart. I'm doing the same thing with my heartbreaker - a series of individual CYOA adventures explaining all the game concepts for players, culminating in a gm-able adventure for the table.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:29
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slap me and kiss me posted:That is mad smart. I'm doing the same thing with my heartbreaker - a series of individual CYOA adventures explaining all the game concepts for players, culminating in a gm-able adventure for the table. They even got Chris Spivey in to remaster Dead Man Stomp, so a) the text no longer includes the N-word right in the middle of its discussion of racism of the era and b) there's an actual black man's perspective on racism of the era and Lovecraftian xenophobia right in there in a product that's supposed to be a viable first point of exposure to this stuff, which is quietly revolutionary in my view.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:31
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Warthur posted:They even got Chris Spivey in to remaster Dead Man Stomp, so a) the text no longer includes the N-word right in the middle of its discussion of racism of the era and b) there's an actual black man's perspective on racism of the era and Lovecraftian xenophobia right in there in a product that's supposed to be a viable first point of exposure to this stuff, which is quietly revolutionary in my view. Weird. That straightforward and competent handling of racism is unexpected. They're obviously not a real RPG company.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:32
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Warthur posted:They even got Chris Spivey in to remaster Dead Man Stomp, so a) the text no longer includes the N-word right in the middle of its discussion of racism of the era and b) there's an actual black man's perspective on racism of the era and Lovecraftian xenophobia right in there in a product that's supposed to be a viable first point of exposure to this stuff, which is quietly revolutionary in my view. Really? That's awesome. Dead Man's Stomp always stood out to me as a great CoC adventure as it was, but adding that takes it to another level.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:33
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Warthur posted:Good prefabs help bake in best practice for running the game in question, which helps create a community of GMs who can competently grow your game because they're showing it in its best light. the one sotdl adventure that burned me real bad was one wherein the players are tasked to go into the swamp to ask this ogre witch for help in un-petrifying the children of a nearby town. when you arrive at her house she immediately attacks you and will fight to the death. so the pcs can ransack her house and gather up some possible cures, but then on the way back you're supposed to have them come across a grove of berry bushes with all these petrified animals around them. basically the reveal is that the berries cause the petrification and the ogre witch was the only person who could help and her cures don't do anything the ending? "gently caress you" (not literally but there is no way to save the kids in the adventure, and it just suggests that maybe they should go seek out a wizard to help)
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Feb 28, 2019 17:34
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slap me and kiss me posted:Weird. That straightforward and competent handling of racism is unexpected. They're obviously not a real RPG company.
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Feb 28, 2019 17:37
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Comrade Gorbash posted:As someone who was in the hobby before Y2K, no it was not that homogenous even then. Comrade Gorbash posted:What a steaming pile of bullshit. If you're sitting on wisdom about how no, actually the gaming industry was full of representation and diversity in the 80s, that's a post I'd like to read. Because my experience was that the parade of homogeneity at TotalCon is pretty drat representative of business-as-usual back in the day. I thought PST came in a little hot with "here's a con you'll get harassed at" and that take probably lead to their assumption that TC was deliberately omitting voices. I think there's a pretty clear line from A to B that doesn't go through CIS MEN ONLY NEED APPLY, and I described it. I don't think that makes B a good outcome, a desirable one, or one that should stand. It's a teachable moment, not a death penalty offense.
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Feb 28, 2019 18:18
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moths posted:I thought PST came in a little hot with "here's a con you'll get harassed at" and that take probably lead to their assumption that TC was deliberately omitting voices. I think that's specifically because Bill Webb is one of the Guests of Honor, given that he legit had to be pulled off of a woman at PaizoCon.
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Feb 28, 2019 18:25
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Well gently caress. Maybe lead with that.
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Feb 28, 2019 18:27
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moths posted:Well gently caress. Yeah, accusations against him and Mentzer in 2017 were what kicked off the initial MeToo movement in the RPG community. This is the original RPGNet thread which, if usernames line up, was actually posted by PST.
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Feb 28, 2019 18:35
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Serf posted:the one sotdl adventure that burned me real bad was one wherein the players are tasked to go into the swamp to ask this ogre witch for help in un-petrifying the children of a nearby town. when you arrive at her house she immediately attacks you and will fight to the death. so the pcs can ransack her house and gather up some possible cures, but then on the way back you're supposed to have them come across a grove of berry bushes with all these petrified animals around them. basically the reveal is that the berries cause the petrification and the ogre witch was the only person who could help and her cures don't do anything The one that hosed me over was the The Apple of Her Eye, a novice adventure whose boss has 5th rank spells and permanently charms you if you see her and fail an intellect roll with a bane (or two if you ate an apple or drank cider in town, when the town is famous for both).
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Feb 28, 2019 18:38
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Lumbermouth posted:Yeah, accusations against him and Mentzer in 2017 were what kicked off the initial MeToo movement in the RPG community. This is the original RPGNet thread which, if usernames line up, was actually posted by PST. Fuuuck that's scummy. I really don't know how I missed this. PST, you've clearly been following this closer than I have and I apologize for bad assumptions.
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Feb 28, 2019 18:41
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Piell posted:The one that hosed me over was the The Apple of Her Eye, a novice adventure whose boss has 5th rank spells and permanently charms you if you see her and fail an intellect roll with a bane (or two if you ate an apple or drank cider in town, when the town is famous for both). the group i ran through that one did not survive, so yeah its pretty overtuned
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Feb 28, 2019 18:46
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moths posted:Fuuuck that's scummy. I really don't know how I missed this. Is all good, I mostly end up promoting or putting together what other people raise (e.g. I may have been the one pushing the WTF on Paizo's 'child abuse gives you magic powers' but didn't spot it, I just used my voice to shout a bit louder, same with putting together all the 'wtf is up with paizo' stuff as it all happened around the same time, but no one else had done 'here's it all together'). There's a reason i'm mostly comfortable talking and reading about nerdy stuff (and politics) on SA because it's so much better than anywhere else with people who actually give a poo poo about the hobby and real talk and give good advice.
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Feb 28, 2019 18:58
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moths posted:If you're sitting on wisdom about how no, actually the gaming industry was full of representation and diversity in the 80s, that's a post I'd like to read. And even if they were only looking at people up to the late 90s, how about Liz Danforth, Anne Brown, Andria Hayday, Miranda Horner, Lee Gold, and Barbara Young, just to name a handful. And then there's Janelle Jacquays, who may not have been out then but still - and see above. The TTRPG space has absolutely become more diverse in the last 20 years. But the idea that before 2000 it was wall-to-wall white dudes plus Mike Pondsmith (who is great, no shade on him here) is a white-washing of the industry perpetuated by gate keepers and reactionaries who want a fig leaf justification for their behavior. I don't know if TotalCon is perpetuating it on purpose or just too lazy to do the work, but the fact that they invited that many guests across more than four decades of RPG history and didn't find a single woman is pretty absurd. Also absurd is your what-about-ism and bad faith handwringing. Maybe actually know what the gently caress you're talking about next time.
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Feb 28, 2019 19:05
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Speaking of prefabs, I was really bummed to find out that Unity doesn't have any of the standard "get started here" materials, at least not that I could find. No adventure in the back of the book, only one example character and no other pregens, no separate quickstart materials. So either I can't read or I'll have to make one myself. Does one exist out there already, official or fanmade?
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Feb 28, 2019 19:09
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The thing about some indies, especially stuff like Blades, is that I don't really even know what a pre-fab would look like. The more details you have, the more you're filling in gaps that should be filled in by players during play. I know when I run Blades, the most full version of my planning/notes is :
Like one of my big reasons for loving Blades is that I can do all the prep for the game on the train ride to where we're playing or whatever. It takes a few minutes of staring into space/remembering a sweet set piece in a book and ripping it off/coming up with some fun things to interact with, then you just put it in front of the players and you go from there. It's really forgiving. As in, I've been hanging out with my gaming group doing something else, they wanted to play Blades in the Dark, I said sure, went to have a cigarette and came back with the game written in 5 minutes. This did make me think that a cool thing in a game like this would be instead of a pre-fab, have an example of play from the GM's perspective where they have these fragmented notes and ideas and how they integrate them into play (or how they also ditch them because players went somewhere else or more interesting). That might be a really good teaching tool.
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Feb 28, 2019 19:35
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One thing I’ve super appreciated in my Blades in the Dark group is that the book is full of very short descriptions of different factions, individuals, and areas, and pretty much every one of them has a hook on it. It’s been invaluable for me as a new player trying to fit my character into a preexisting group and the world in general.
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Feb 28, 2019 19:39
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Xiahou Dun posted:The thing about some indies, especially stuff like Blades, is that I don't really even know what a pre-fab would look like. The more details you have, the more you're filling in gaps that should be filled in by players during play. I know when I run Blades, the most full version of my planning/notes is : Other than doing custom images and newspapers about the setting/game for my players, which is mostly just because I love doing handouts in games (though I doubt i'll ever top the backpack with 50+ pieces in it for dracula dossier), I do less prep for Blades than any other game. Last session Me: So here's a couple of potential scores Players: We instead want to go take turf Me: Okay where Players: We're thinking the docks Me-players: talk about it for 15 mins of conversation comes up with the gang they're stealing from, I ask for a + and a - about the gang, from that come up with some quick names and details and they just did everything else for me. 15 mins at the table and 2 sessions came out of it (because taking their first turf turned into the first 2-session score). edit: quote:This did make me think that a cool thing in a game like this would be instead of a pre-fab, have an example of play from the GM's perspective where they have these fragmented notes and ideas and how they integrate them into play (or how they also ditch them because players went somewhere else or more interesting). That might be a really good teaching tool. This would be really good. One of the things I like about the Magpies podcast/actual play on Blades is that it gave me a ton of ideas about things to use in the game, or showed _how_ to use bits I already knew about. More 'here's some stuff on how to adapt' as a baseline is definitely good there.
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Feb 28, 2019 19:41
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I had a bit of an eye-opening moment comparing Blades in the Dark to Spire: City Must Fall. So, similar mechanics, similar game conceits (you're criminals trying to accomplish your mission while the city tries to keep you down), narrative-structurally-similar settings (there's a city, you can't really leave easily, it's well-defined in a very high level sense and then just make up what you're "Doskvol" / "Spire" looks like and there is no canon). Blades seemed to say "It's narrative, good luck, you're on your own!" and there's been no official support in the form of adventures or any such. The closest we've seen is Sean Nittner's scores (example), which are one page of hooks and a vague idea. Spire, meanwhile, releases adventures like Eidolon Sky, which acknowledge that it's basically impossible to design an adventure in such a narrative heavy / player agency full game. And yet. Eidolon Sky and the others are full of well described NPCs, agendas with scenes that can occur as the GM thinks they're necessary, locations that might be relevant, etc. You can pick up Charterhall University and you're barely further than if I pitched an adventure seed on this thread. You pick up Eidolon Sky and you're about as ready as a published adventure can get you. (And I'm not criticizing Nittner - that's a cool tool. But it's even worse when you consider it's fan-made and Blades has nothing official.)
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Feb 28, 2019 19:47
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here's a prefab score for blades: which seems pretty good to me, and i'm not sure what else you'd need that you shouldn't be filling our yourself along with your players
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Feb 28, 2019 19:48
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