Latin America: the fires immediately died down, because they needed socialism to burn

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Latin America: the fires immediately died down, because they needed socialism to burn

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Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

RIP Syndrome posted:

It was actually a reference to the fact that I regarded your comment as doing just that I think the trains on schedule comment is kind of old, I've seen it a lot (though usually it's not directed at me) and it's often used as a way to kill discussion. With hindsight, I think the misunderstanding is that you were not trying to do that, but it's not always easy to tell.

Fair enough. It's probably more common in LatAm, where there's been a lot of military dictatorships. I apologize for being flippant in response to a long and thorough post; it didn't occur to me that it might be interpreted as hostile.

RIP Syndrome posted:

I agree, and I think my original statement was unclear: People whose basic needs aren't met don't have the luxury of caring about nice words like democracy, or even being able to inform themselves and going to the urns to choose between brand A and brand B. It's natural to worry about things further down the Maslow pyramid first. Cf. correlation between income level and voting rate.

Secondly, a lot of people don't have their basic needs met in nominal democracies. I used the qualifier "nominal" to mean that in practice they're not democratic enough, and that the words "democratic" and "undemocratic" often contain a large amount of spin. It wasn't a statement of support for dictatorship or even "benign" communism, but an observation that getting to the point where you can call something democratic is not enough, you have to reap the rewards of such a system too.

I absolutely agree. Democracy isn't a magic bullet that solves all the issues in a society. But if I didn't believe it was necessarily better than not having democracy, I wouldn't be a democratic socialist. "Nominal democracy" is an excellent term for it in this context. It's a tricky topic because these sorts of debates over civil rights often lead to tu quoque mudslinging over "well your nation does THIS important thing badly," "you're one to talk because your nation does THIS important thing badly."

I will add, though, that the "basic needs" of a citizen are met differently depending on the citizen. I'd rate not being murdered as pretty low on the hierarchy of needs, so the purging of dissidents and suppression of opposition to the party in power is still a subject that IMO needs to be addressed even if not everyone is getting fed.

RIP Syndrome posted:

I was uncertain whether to mention CO2 in the post because it sounds kind of superficial and selfish, but as another poster mentioned, I think it's interesting to think about what future societies would look like under a restricted CO2 regime (here's where you hear a lot of people go "aaaah, collapse!!!"), and Cuba has had relatively low emissions for a long time and their society hasn't collapsed.

CO2 is important to everyone whether they realize it or not, IMO. The perverse incentives of capitalism will, have, and are destroying the planet for everyone by encouraging the wasteful use and production of even beneficial technology which might otherwise actually be applied to further reduce mankind's environmental impact by increasing the efficiency of its general resource use.

Cutting back on unsustainable resource usage will always mean hardship for people who are accustomed to a wasteful way of living. It doesn't have to mean a decrease in long-term quality of life, though. I will admit I'm interested to see how private companies operate in Cuba under (hopefully) strict oversight on CO2 production and worker rights, though. Most countries approach social democracy from more laissez-faire capitalism. It will be edifying to see if the approach from actual socialism will be different.

RIP Syndrome posted:

Thanks for getting this back on track, btw. I think we're on the same side? We're the good guys

Of course. I didn't really want to yank up the LatAm thread, either, I normally just lurk and try to learn about the continent from local perspectives. I just felt it was a broadly applicable comparison, so I perhaps overstepped my bounds.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 18:12

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# ? May 16, 2024 01:44

joepinetree: Apr 5, 2012

Azran posted:

IIRC Cuba also has a problem with colorism, just like the rest of Latin America (when it's not just straight out racism). It's just that Fidel said Cuba was free of racism a while ago so you better not be going around spewing lies!!!
At least in Argentina I only have to deal with general apathy when I point out we are hella racist.

Yes, Cuba has a problem with colorim, but when I was there there were no issues discussing it. The idea of Cuba as some sort of caricature of North Korean style authoritarianism doesn't really hold. Not that this excuses the colorism, but it is certainly better there than in Brazil. In fact, given that colorism is getting worse because of white ex-pats in the US sending remittances back to Cuba to relatives, there's even a bit of an incentive for the government to discuss it in those terms.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 18:22

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

There is no internet in Cuba IIRC.

Saladman posted:

Have you been to Cuba? It�s okay but calling it a bastion of human development is ehhhh. Like yeah it�s better than most of Latin America (and way better than Latin America for the poorest like ~10-30% of the population) but it�s uh, not exactly Finland or even Greece. Just because the US media paints it as some hellhole everyone wants to escape (it�s not) it�s also not some tropical socialist paradise.

I mean I�m not like an expert on Cuba or anything but I have driven around quite a bit of the country and I�m pretty sure I�d rather have grown up in rural Costa Rica or Patagonia than rural Cuba. The only metric I can think of offhand where Cuba is obviously #1 in the America�s are it�s big city slums, as I�d much rather grow up poor in Havana than any other big city in the Western Hemisphere. At least it�s safe and you don�t have to hustle to cover your basic needs. Still, i think most would pick Malm� or even like, Saint denis, if they had to get reincarnated in some country�s poorest big city.

Great post, thanks for sharing.

I've heard that most Cubans are actually black, but Cuba doesn't do a census so noone knows.

Cicero posted:

IIRC Cuba already allows small businesses in a limited form, they've taken a few baby steps towards allowing entrepreneurship/capitalism, so they're not fully socialist anymore, and the new constitution looks like further incremental steps in that direction.

They were working on cooperatives. Not sure how that is working.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 18:33

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

There is Internet in Cuba, it's just a public network you need to buy cards for. Polygon did a fascinating look at gaming culture there that touches on how people work around these things to consume gaming media there. I'm on mobile, otherwise I'd link it.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 18:52

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

One of these?

https://www.polygon.com/2017/5/15/15625636/cuba-video-games
https://www.polygon.com/features/2017/5/15/15626036/cuba-game-piracy

Internet and gaming are one of those "genie out of the bottle" things. You can't un-invent them. Anywhere you are, people who know about them will want to use them.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 19:39

nerdz: Oct 12, 2004; Complex, statistically improbable things are by their nature more difficult to explain than simple, statistically probable things.; Grimey Drawer

According to a Cuban friend, he grew up on Brazilian soap operas which is extremely funny to me

# ? Feb 27, 2019 20:00

RIP Syndrome: Feb 24, 2016

Cup Runneth Over posted:

Fair enough. It's probably more common in LatAm, where there's been a lot of military dictatorships. I apologize for being flippant in response to a long and thorough post; it didn't occur to me that it might be interpreted as hostile.

Turns out I'm the humorless one. Sorry for the hair-trigger response and for being obnoxious to you. Case closed!

Snipped the rest of your post because it's good and I have nothing to add.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 20:11

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

I wonder what Cuban anime is like?

# ? Feb 27, 2019 20:34

Pentaro: May 5, 2013

punk rebel ecks posted:

I wonder what Cuban anime is like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AloKVWhkp80

# ? Feb 27, 2019 20:44

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

Cup Runneth Over posted:

One of these?

https://www.polygon.com/2017/5/15/15625636/cuba-video-games
https://www.polygon.com/features/2017/5/15/15626036/cuba-game-piracy

Internet and gaming are one of those "genie out of the bottle" things. You can't un-invent them. Anywhere you are, people who know about them will want to use them.

Yeah, it's a series, ten articles in total IIRC. Drew Scanlon of internet meme fame (also Giant Bomb) did a video on their jury-rigged gaming network too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEplzHraw3c&hd=1

I'll say one thing, as a Brazilian who's been mugged twice I'm mad envious of people chilling on a park after dark using their laptops.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 20:49

The Dipshit: Dec 21, 2005; by FactsAreUseless

Mozi posted:

Cuba, if nothing else, shows that if humanity could make its way without unfettered access to all the luxuries of the modern world, which would be necessary for the developed world to really reduce our emissions.

Quoted for truth. Hell, we could probably have a fair bit more than Cuba if it came to it.

# ? Feb 28, 2019 00:11

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Cuba has been loosening internet restrictions recently. For example, as of December 2018, Cubans have access to the same internet access over cell phone networks that tourists have had for a while now, where before they were supposed to be using certain official WiFi hotspots. A few specific sites are blocked but they can use like Twitter etc. At roughly the same time, they also relaxed the home computer internet access restrictions to the same almost entirely clear status as the cell phones can now offer.

Now granted, the prices charged for these services are not cheap compared to the average Cuban's wages, so it's not like they can all use the internet as much as they want, but it's a radically different situation from just the beginning of 2017.

So like, those neat articles and videos on the ad-hoc and restricted alternatives Cubans were using up til recently are now things that only apply to the poor, instead of applying to all Cubans. And future changes in the prices offered by the government will probably make things more affordable and reduce the need for those alternate networks even further.

# ? Feb 28, 2019 02:33

Azran: Sep 3, 2012; And what should one do to be remembered?

joepinetree posted:

Yes, Cuba has a problem with colorim, but when I was there there were no issues discussing it. The idea of Cuba as some sort of caricature of North Korean style authoritarianism doesn't really hold. Not that this excuses the colorism, but it is certainly better there than in Brazil. In fact, given that colorism is getting worse because of white ex-pats in the US sending remittances back to Cuba to relatives, there's even a bit of an incentive for the government to discuss it in those terms.

I wasn't aiming for a North Korea comparison, I am ashamed to admit I've done much more reading on NK than Cuba :v:

I remember reading an article on the topic from two or so years ago, maybe The Atlantic? Can't recall. I was thinking more "Armeninan Genocide in Turkey" where the state just strongly disapproves of the topic/likes to pretend it doesn't exist. Glad to see it isn't as grim then.

# ? Feb 28, 2019 04:36

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

fishmech posted:

Cuba has been loosening internet restrictions recently. For example, as of December 2018, Cubans have access to the same internet access over cell phone networks that tourists have had for a while now, where before they were supposed to be using certain official WiFi hotspots. A few specific sites are blocked but they can use like Twitter etc. At roughly the same time, they also relaxed the home computer internet access restrictions to the same almost entirely clear status as the cell phones can now offer.

Now granted, the prices charged for these services are not cheap compared to the average Cuban's wages, so it's not like they can all use the internet as much as they want, but it's a radically different situation from just the beginning of 2017.

So like, those neat articles and videos on the ad-hoc and restricted alternatives Cubans were using up til recently are now things that only apply to the poor, instead of applying to all Cubans. And future changes in the prices offered by the government will probably make things more affordable and reduce the need for those alternate networks even further.

Wow, so pretty soon we'll have Cuban goons.

# ? Feb 28, 2019 05:21

bagual: Oct 29, 2010; _{_{inconspicuous}}

So this is a thing that happened

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbeIynzfVzo

edit: also Cup Runneth Over sorry for flipping you off earlier, I just hate the "read history" aka "educate yourself" retort because it means nothing, you can read a history book written by some ideologue and "educate" yourself solely through youtube hacks

bagual fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Feb 28, 2019

# ? Feb 28, 2019 22:21

Munin: Nov 14, 2004

bagual posted:

So this is a thing that happened

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbeIynzfVzo

What totally nuts statement did he make?

bagual posted:

edit: also Cup Runneth Over sorry for flipping you off earlier, I just hate the "read history" aka "educate yourself" retort because it means nothing, you can read a history book written by some ideologue and "educate" yourself solely through youtube hacks

Jordan Peterson taught me everything I needed to know about western history and philosophy! He was named as the most significant modern thinker in several publications you know!

# ? Mar 1, 2019 08:41

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

bagual posted:

edit: also Cup Runneth Over sorry for flipping you off earlier, I just hate the "read history" aka "educate yourself" retort because it means nothing, you can read a history book written by some ideologue and "educate" yourself solely through youtube hacks

Obviously, it was a vacuous retort in response to a vacuous assertion.

# ? Mar 1, 2019 14:04

bagual: Oct 29, 2010; _{_{inconspicuous}}

Munin posted:

What totally nuts statement did he make?

During Itaipu Dam's new management inauguration ceremony he homaged Alfredo Stroessner, dictator of Paraguay 1954-1989 and literal child rapist

Called Stroessner a "great statesman" for cooperating with the brazilian dictatorship during the dam's construction. The whole project had numerous worker deaths and a massive corruption scheme that got brazilian ambassador Jos� Jobim killed, or rather "suicided", in the cover-up. Literally kidnapped from his car and "found" hanging, his death was only ruled a murder in 2018 by the National Truth Comission.

The Paraguayan government, run by Stroessner's own Partido Colorado since the flash impeachment of left-wing president Fernando Lugo in 2012, said they "respect (bolso's) opinions", "the dialogue has been positive" and that both countries share a "key relation" :thunk:

Cup Runneth Over posted:

Obviously, it was a vacuous retort in response to a vacuous assertion.

I'd rather call out vacuous assertions than pay in kind, each to their own I guess.

I just get into Cuba debates on a hair trigger since people around here slam Cuba over human rights abuses while asking for more extrajudicial police killings at home on the same breath.

# ? Mar 1, 2019 16:16

Negostrike: Aug 15, 2015

bagual posted:

During Itaipu Dam's new management inauguration ceremony he homaged Alfredo Stroessner, dictator of Paraguay 1954-1989 and literal child rapist

Called Stroessner a "great statesman" for cooperating with the brazilian dictatorship during the dam's construction. The whole project had numerous worker deaths and a massive corruption scheme that got brazilian ambassador Jos Jobim killed, or rather "suicided", in the cover-up. Literally kidnapped from his car and "found" hanging, his death was only ruled a murder in 2018 by the National Truth Comission.

The Paraguayan government, run by Stroessner's own Partido Colorado since the flash impeachment of left-wing president Fernando Lugo in 2012, said they "respect (bolso's) opinions", "the dialogue has been positive" and that both countries share a "key relation"

I'd rather call out vacuous assertions than pay in kind, each to their own I guess.

I just get into Cuba debates on a hair trigger since people around here slam Cuba over human rights abuses while asking for more extrajudicial police killings at home on the same breath.

Not that he's much different but that's a pic of Pinochet (even though it's a Paraguayan stamp).

This is Stroessner:

# ? Mar 1, 2019 16:36

bagual: Oct 29, 2010; _{_{inconspicuous}}

Negrostrike posted:

Not that he's much different but that's a pic of Pinochet (even though it's a Paraguayan stamp).

This is Stroessner:

Haha oh poo poo I just googled Stroessner and grabbed a random pic, didn't even notice it.

Latin American dictators all came from the Mengele clone factory apparently.

# ? Mar 1, 2019 16:41

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

bagual posted:

Latin American dictators all came from the Mengele clone factory apparently.

In Argentina! :tinfoil:

# ? Mar 1, 2019 16:48

Pochoclo: Feb 4, 2008; No...; Clapping Larry

Cup Runneth Over posted:

In Argentina!

Calafate is really nice this time of year... the Perito Moreno and Viedma glaciers are beautiful, the lamb is great, the Hitler clone factory is always so interesting to visit...

# ? Mar 1, 2019 17:14

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

Yeah what was Peron smoking letting all those Nazi exiles in?

# ? Mar 1, 2019 17:22

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Why did Latin America like Nazis so much?

# ? Mar 1, 2019 17:28

Elias_Maluco: Aug 23, 2007; I need to sleep

I guess white (or light-skinned) elites on latin-american countries often consider themselves a superior kind because it justifies their privileged position. And that goes well with nazism

Its funny because for european/north-american nazis we usually are all "latin", an inferior race that they despise

# ? Mar 1, 2019 17:37

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

punk rebel ecks posted:

Why did Latin America like Nazis so much?

The place was blanketed with dictators keen on 1-) taking a strong stance against the commies (keep in mind that back then, jew and communist were interchangeable words for most people) 2-) Boosting quality of life and industrialization for the -right- layers of society, and 3-)thumbing their nose at the usual US-UK familiar imperial powers that controlled whatever industry existed and made those same dictators feel like errand boys instead of proud, independent caudillos.

So yeah, it's no surprise that several places liked the nazis. It's easy to forget now that for almost two decades, it seemed to be the wave of the moment.

Brazil was always going to fall on the US side of the equation, out of pure practical concerns, so it just played hard-to-get and got some industry concessions from the allies ("our overlords let us have a steel industry now, yaaay!"), though they did send some foreign dissidents to die in german gas chambers. The data I get from Argentina is a bit more mixed, as apparently many of the inner circle really thought that the country could be a key player in a possible Axis victory.

# ? Mar 1, 2019 17:38

CAPS LOCK BROKEN: Feb 1, 2006; by Fluffdaddy

punk rebel ecks posted:

Why did Latin America like Nazis so much?

Why do settler colonial nations with large self-identified white populations and a legacy of slavery love fascists?

🤔🤔🤔

# ? Mar 1, 2019 17:43

RIP Syndrome: Feb 24, 2016

quote:

I just get into Cuba debates on a hair trigger since people around here slam Cuba over human rights abuses while asking for more extrajudicial police killings at home on the same breath.

I feel the same way; also too used to seeing retorts of the "So you claim to be on the side of the people while giving less than 100% support to Democracy�? How curious!" kind not aiming for a productive discussion, which (demonstrably) can make me respond unproductively when all I've received is a friendly poke in the ribs :gibs:

As an exercise in esprit d'escalier -- a better response would've been a very questionable quote from one of Mussolini's (and Adolf Eichmann's) more respected contemporaries: "If there can be a few of reasonable merit at the top, I do not so much mind what happens at the bottom." I'm not a brain genius by any means, nor am I here to convince anyone that I am, but I do read.

Anyway. Some fodder for the LatAm thread: https://www.sinembargo.mx/22-02-2019/3540268

quote:

El d�a 10 de febrero durante su visita al estado de Morelos, L�pez Obrador se refiri� a los opositores �la mayor�a pueblos nahuas de la regi�n� como �radicales de izquierda� y �conservadores�. Asimismo, asever� que �aunque hubiera gritos y sombrerazos� se realizar�a la votaci�n los d�as 23 y 24 de febrero.

Obrador calling people opposing a gas pipeline radical leftists, and then a few days later their leader was murdered. One of six activists killed so far this year. I still think Obrador was the least bad of the candidates, but hoping they can do more to prevent that and maybe also get unstuck from the Pemex era...

# ? Mar 1, 2019 18:13

bagual: Oct 29, 2010; _{_{inconspicuous}}

Cup Runneth Over posted:

In Argentina!

Mengele (or rather, his grave) was actually found in Brazil in 1985 thanks to german intelligence intercepting a letter to his family telling them of his death. He died an old man, having a stroke while swimming in a S�o Paulo beach in 1979 under the name Wolfgang Gerhard. The real :tinfoil:

part is that there's a town in Brazil with an anomalous number of twins versus normal population, where he apparently worked as a doctor for some time.

punk rebel ecks posted:

Why did Latin America like Nazis so much?

It's more that the nazis liked Latin America's huge german diaspora where they could easily lay low. German immigrants were not very assimilated into local culture, in some towns people spoke german exclusively, and the "Germany Stronk" message really resonated with a community that viewed itself as persecuted. A friend of mine told me his great-grandmother was a poor rural german immigrant worker, and her community gathered around the only radio in town to hear the news. The owner of said radio was a massive nazi and forced everyone to sieg heil and sing deutschland uber alles before they were allowed to turn the radio on.

# ? Mar 1, 2019 18:17

Dark_Tzitzimine: Oct 9, 2012; by R. Guyovich

RIP Syndrome posted:

I still think Obrador was the least bad of the candidates, but hoping they can do more to prevent that and maybe also get unstuck from the Pemex era...

I mean, AMLO's betting Mexico's future on saving Pemex and they have already stopped plans of expanding the use of Eolic Energy in the country.

# ? Mar 1, 2019 21:02

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

It kills the birds, you see

# ? Mar 1, 2019 21:08

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Today's NYT hit piece on AMLO

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/01/world/americas/mexico-migration-trump.html

quote:

Mexico Is Carrying Out Trump�s Agenda Along Much of the Border

By Azam Ahmed and Kirk Semple

March 1, 2019

MEXICO CITY � Mexican officials are carrying out the Trump administration�s immigration agenda across broad stretches of the border, undercutting the Mexican government�s promises to defend migrants and support their search for a better life.

The Mexican authorities are blocking groups of migrants at border towns, refusing to allow them onto international bridges to apply for asylum in the United States, intercepting unaccompanied minors before they can reach American soil, and helping to manage lists of asylum seekers on behalf of the American authorities to limit the number of people crossing the border.

Breaking with decades of asylum practice, the Mexican government has also allowed the Trump administration to send more than 120 men, women and children to Tijuana while they await decisions on their asylum applications in the United States. The program could be expanded to other border crossings as soon as next week.

Officials inside the administration of Mexico�s new president, Andr�s Manuel L�pez Obrador, have called his stance on migrants a strategic decision not to anger President Trump.

He doesn�t believe he can change Mr. Trump�s mind, they contend. Furthermore, the officials say, Mr. L�pez Obrador has not wanted to jeopardize other aspects of the deeply interconnected relationship between the two countries, ranging from elaborate regional trading arrangements to information sharing on border security, transnational crime and terrorism. So he has avoided a bruising and potentially costly public fight over the issue.

A lifelong defender of the poor, Mr. L�pez Obrador often refers to his plans for Mexico as a grand transformation, placing his ambitions for the nation on par with those of its great leaders.

He has burnished his everyman credentials by cutting government salaries, flying coach around the country and opening the opulent presidential palace to the public. He has also vastly reduced the number of Central American migrants Mexico deports from its soil.

But not everything has transformed.

Exhibit A is the Migrant Protection Protocols, the Trump administration�s policy to require asylum seekers to remain on the Mexican side of the border while they await decisions on their fate. Rights groups contend that it dumps migrants in an increasingly violent Mexico and impairs their access to legal counsel and family support in the United States.

Mr. L�pez Obrador�s administration, which came into office saying it would not cooperate with Mr. Trump�s anti-immigration agenda, has gone along with it on several fronts, including accepting women and children despite earlier promises to take only adult male asylum seekers.

But for Mr. L�pez Obrador, giving in to some of Mr. Trump�s border demands and rarely saying a word against the American president in his daily press briefings carries little political cost at home.

To many Mexicans, the fate of migrants is secondary to domestic concerns about jobs, security and corruption. Mr. L�pez Obrador retains an 80 percent approval rating, despite his government�s willingness to take back migrants applying for asylum in the United States.

�If we have to accept a handful of people back into Mexico, that�s not really a problem for us, not even politically,� said one official who was not authorized to discuss internal deliberations. �What we really want to avoid is a public fight with Trump.�

But in its effort to avoid a cross-border fight, the Mexican government has chosen politics over its humanitarian ideals, critics contend.

�Mexico is continuing to play the role that the U.S. thinks it should, which is to contain the migrant influx, period,� said Melissa Vertiz Hern�ndez, who coordinates the Working Group on Immigration Policy, a network of civil society and rights groups in Mexico.

The delicate balance with the United States has left the Mexican government without a clear, consistent immigration policy, so Mexican states and municipalities along the border are often in the position of fending for themselves under pressure from their American counterparts.

In the Mexican border city of Reynosa, for instance, almost no one is allowed to cross the bridge to apply for asylum in neighboring McAllen, Texas. They are typically blocked or apprehended by Mexican officials, forcing migrants to try their luck in other towns.

In the city of Piedras Negras, officials rounded up hundreds of migrants who arrived in a caravan in recent weeks and kept them under tight watch in a shelter with limited access to outsiders, advocates say. After a public outcry, the center was closed and many were bused to other cities and towns along the border.

The mayor of Ciudad Ju�rez, meanwhile, has threatened to sue a neighboring governor for shipping migrants to his town. It has become a game of political hot potato, with desperate Central Americans who are fleeing poverty and violence caught in the middle.

Elsewhere along the border, shelter officials say they manage lists of asylum applicants by name, nationality, age and documentation to assist Mexican officials who are complying with American border patrol mandates.

The Mexican government is resisting Mr. Trump in some ways, the official in Mr. L�pez Obrador�s government insisted. Even acquiescing to the Trump administration on the Migrant Protection Protocols was done strategically, according to the official and two others briefed on the plan.

By allowing the program to start in San Diego and Tijuana, the Mexican officials argued, legal challenges to it in the United States go to the federal courts in the Northern District of California, which are generally seen as liberal. This matters at a time when many Americans are focused on how to beat Mr. Trump in the 2020 elections, in particular by leveraging the Mexican-American vote.

But many activists are far from confident that a legal challenge will put an end to the program.

�I think it�s an incredibly risky move,� said Stephanie Leutert, the director of the Mexico Security Initiative at the University of Texas at Austin. �I don�t think you should put your country�s foreign and migratory policy in the hands of a civil society organization in another country.�

On Feb. 14, that civil society organization, the American Civil Liberties Union, and several other advocacy groups filed a lawsuit challenging the Trump administration�s policy. A decision on a temporary restraining order is expected in the coming days.

The lawsuit, filed on behalf of 11 asylum seekers who were returned to Mexico in recent weeks, accuses the Trump administration of violating federal and international migration and human rights laws.

Advocates contend that by forcibly sending asylum seekers to Tijuana, the Trump administration has plunged them into an unfamiliar and dangerous environment where their lives may be in jeopardy.

Killings in Tijuana have skyrocketed in recent years because of a turf war in the local drug market. In 2018, the city suffered its deadliest year on record, with more than 2,500 killings.

The Trump administration first announced the new policy in December, and on Jan. 28 the head of Mexico�s migration agency said the Mexican government had imposed restrictions on its enactment.

But Mexican officials have backed down from many of those initial restrictions, including its refusal to accept women with children. Trump administration officials have said they plan to expand the program to other ports of entry along the border. The L�pez Obrador administration has said little publicly about the changes.

In Tijuana, several of the returnees � three single men, a single woman, and two mothers each traveling with three children � described their confusion and dismay at finding themselves in Mexico once again.

�I have no idea how I�m going to survive,� said Yanira, a 34-year-old migrant from El Salvador who feared being pursued by the people she said she was fleeing in her home country.

Yanira said she left El Salvador with her three children � ages 8, 11 and 12 � after a local gang tried to recruit her middle child and threatened violence unless he agreed.

When she stepped onto Mexican soil again after being led back across the border by American officials, she broke down.

�I cried and cried,� she recalled.

Mexican officials have said they cannot provide shelter and care for the returnees, essentially leaving them to a network of community groups in Tijuana and elsewhere in the state of Baja California.

But the shelter network has been under extraordinary pressure from the almost-continual arrival of migrants traveling in caravans, who have pushed the centers beyond capacity.

Sister Salom� Limas, a social worker at the Instituto Madre Asunta migrant shelter in Tijuana, said it is currently housing about 120 women and children � in a space designed for 44.

Among the migrants are several families who are seeking asylum in the United States and were returned in recent weeks under the Trump policy.

Sister Salom� said the shelter can house the families until their first court date in the United States, in late March. After that, she is not sure.

�What�s going to happen to them?� she said. �We don�t know.�

In true American liberal fashion, the goodness or badness of the foreign society is purely a function of how it reflects America, and literally nothing else

icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Mar 1, 2019

# ? Mar 1, 2019 23:07

Venomous: Nov 7, 2011

Hard to believe that a half-German, half-Paraguayan dictator named Str��ner hid Nazis from the Allies

e: I mean I can�t speak for the rest of South America (though they doubtless had their own fascist problems) but Paraguay doesn�t surprise me

Venomous fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Mar 2, 2019

# ? Mar 2, 2019 09:44

Redczar: Nov 9, 2011

Venomous posted:

I mean I can�t speak for the rest of South America (though they doubtless had their own fascist problems)

If you want to read about a horrifying Chilean case, there is Colonia Dignidad which had its fair share of nazis pass through, including Mengele and Walter Rauff

# ? Mar 2, 2019 17:38

Dark_Tzitzimine: Oct 9, 2012; by R. Guyovich

And now AMLO questions IATA's professionalism over their criticism at his administration plans to solve the air traffic issues on Mexico City.

quote:

Their recommendations are being considered, listened, but the decision about Santa Lucia's airport is already taken (...) although at times those organizations aren't very proffessional

https://expansion.mx/economia/2019/03/04/amlo-cuestiona-profesionalismo-de-la-iata

In Mexican lingo, that means "I don't care what you guys say, I'm going to do whatever I want".

# ? Mar 4, 2019 20:17

Negostrike: Aug 15, 2015

This deserves a crosspost from the Brazil thread, gently caress it.

Kinda :nws:

https://twitter.com/jairbolsonaro/status/1103069837876711425

https://twitter.com/jairbolsonaro/status/1103270588850806787

:shepicide:

# ? Mar 6, 2019 14:33

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

You Yankees took so long to deliver the Piss Tape, someone had to step up and deliver the goods!

Honestly, watching Bolsominions simultaneously argue that 1- They are the fun loving non-PC guys and 2- Carnival is hosed up and people should just pipe down is breaking my loving brain.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 14:40

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

Pee is stored in the bolsos.

Also the bolsominion thing makes complete sense. They're conservative elitists after all and Carnaval is a celebration of popular culture, aka "the poors' stuff". The politically incorrect stuff they defend isn't debauchery, they actually abhor that and it's what Carnaval is in their minds, a bunch of marginalized people being lewd and noisy to the sound of bad music.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 15:11

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

Yeah, seen under that lens it's actually simple, even beyond the "Me serially cheating on my wife is just me being cool and free, that ho over there wearing a short skirt is moral degeneracy begging for a rape" garden variety hipocrisy.

Also, wth, there's a Brazil thread?

# ? Mar 6, 2019 16:56

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# ? May 16, 2024 01:44

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

Sephyr posted:

Yeah, seen under that lens it's actually simple, even beyond the "Me serially cheating on my wife is just me being cool and free, that ho over there wearing a short skirt is moral degeneracy begging for a rape" garden variety hipocrisy.

Also, wth, there's a Brazil thread?

It's on C-SPAM.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 17:19

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Latin America: the fires immediately died down, because they needed socialism to burn

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